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Active Threads | Active Posts | Unanswered Today | Since Yesterday | This Week
Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Jump to new posts
Re: Your "Best Digital Piano" Opinion Requested Doug M. 30 seconds ago
Originally Posted by IraBob
Hello all,
I'm new here, with a different background, most likely, than everyone else here.

I'm a tour manager and sound engineer for an internationally known music group. They were hugely popular 20 years ago, but not so much anymore. They are not playing nearly the number of shows that they used to.

Their agent is telling them that promoters have to spend too much money to book them, and with pandemic issues still on people's minds, the promoters aren't willing to take chances, and they want to reduce their costs, just as everyone else is trying to do. One way that we could lower our production expenses and help promoters to be more willing to book the group is to eliminate the rental and cartage and tunings of a 7' or 9' grand piano in those venues that don't already have one. The GP, mind you, is an important part of the show, both sonically and visually, even though it is embedded in a 30-piece orchestra and not the featured instrument. But compromises do have to be made occasionally, and their agent says more and more promoters are asking for that compromise. In some cities we've played recently, the cost of rental and cartage was $2500 and then the tunings are another $300 minimum. If we could bring that cost down to an $800 rental and cartage expense for a DP, promoters would be more willing to book the group.

So, I'd like to ask the community - if we were to compromise and ask for a DP instead of the acoustic grand, could you tell me which keyboards you think would be appropriate? The keyboard would be played by an orchestra pianist, so it would have to have the "feel" of a concert grand. As the sound engineer, I'd like it to have an excellent sound, of course. The other criteria would be that it would need to be a well-known keyboard that a rental company, such as Studio Instrument Rentals (SIR) might have in inventory. Those brands would include Yamaha, Kurzweil, Roland, maybe Kawai, maybe Nord. I'm sure there are others. The other preference would be that it's hardware-based - I couldn't have an orchestra pianist (a different one each night) be expected to know about software solutions, and we don't carry a keyboard tech as part of the entourage.

TIA for your opinions and for taking the time to read and respond to this.

Hi IraBob,

There are quite a few things to talk about: values wise.

There are a number of options of DP's:

Cabinet Pianos:
*Transacoustic pianos (where there is a real piano that plays digital sounds through the soundboard and strings)
*Silent pianos (real piano that can also be silenced for a purely digital sound source)
*Hybrid pianos (real acoustic action, totally digital sound source)
*Clavinova type pianos (digital action; digital sound source; fairly function light)
*Arranger Clavinova type pianos (digital action; digital sound source; arranger electone organ type functionality built in)

Slab pianos:

*Workstations
*Stage pianos
*Portable pianos
*VST controller pianos.

Cabinet Pianos:
Transacoustics are overkill and expensive; Silent pianos and transacoustic require tuning, so they are out.

*Hybrid pianos (real acoustic action, totally digital sound source)
For a concert pianist, the action would be an important consideration. The hybrid digital pianos ---Yamaha Avant Grand; Kawai Novus; Casio GP510---contain real acoustic actions (the casio is slighty less realistic but still on that side of things) are the pinnicle of action quality in digital pianos.
Pros: Amazing action; highest quality sound source; best internal amplification
Cons: Big, heavy, not really built for constant moving around; still quite expensive.

[Linked Image]

*Clavinova type pianos (digital action; digital sound source; fairly function light)
These are not worth it for your usage IMO. They have comparable actions to the slab pianos and the amplification in a gig would come from the PA system. Therefore, there would be no benefit to using Clavinova type pianos (Yamaha CLP785; Kawai CA99) over the slab variety; whereas, with the Hybrid piano, you have the action benefit.


Slab pianos:
*Workstations
Workstations are basically stage pianos with music production tools built in. The benfits include more sliders and knobs to have 16-32 possible parts and many more keyboard splits than on a typical stage piano (that usually maxes out at 8 parts or 8 internal, 8 external). Workstations have touch screens which can be beneficial for bands which require specific set-ups for each song. Often people who cover Queen, (or other bands that span multiple decades) like workstations because they are versitile.
Good workstations cost a few thousand more than good stage pianos. Excellent models include: Pure workstations---Korg Kronos; Kurzweil K2700---Synth workstations---Roland Fantom 8; Yamaha Montage. Of these, only the Roland Fantom 8 has a half decent piano-type action. However, in general, piano action isn't the most important thing for a workstation player, as they tend to also play synth, organ and other parts that benefit from less piano-like action charcteristics.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

*Stage piano
There are 4 stage pianos worth considering. Primarily liked by pianists: the Kawai MP11SE.
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
The action is primarily piano-focused. There are only 40 high-quality sounds and 3 parts. Unlike many other stage pianos, the action is not folded ----it uses a wooden keystick with a pivot-point. If you want a piano action that is nearly as good but you intend to use external VSTi (virtual studio technology instruments) in ordre to provide higher-qualityh sounds, then the Roland RD2000 is also a good option.
[Linked Image]
It has over 1000 sounds of varying quality. You get 8 internal parts and 8 external parts with a raft of effects modules that is only rivaled by workstations. The upsided of the MP11SE is that it's heavier (so it won't rock at all) and has higher quality piano samples on-board than does the RD2000. Also, the sound selection system on the Kawai MP11SE and MP7SE are superior to the RD2000.

The Kawai MP7SE is also a good compromise board.
[Linked Image]
It has 4 parts internal and 4 external parts that you can layer (half that of the Roland RD2000) and a plastic folded action that is similar to but maybe not quite as robust as the Roland RD2000's action. The benefit of the MP7SE is that it rivals the Roland RD2000 in effects but has better organ sounds, better over-all user-interface, and is sligtly better built due to a very sturdy construction.

The Nord Grand is also a possibility, as it uses a version of the action used in the MP7SE but without let-off similation. The advantage of the Nord is that you can load-in different piano samples as technology improves---you're not stuck with the sample-set the instrument was sold to you with. It's super-light---not a benefit for a larger group with hired help.

[Linked Image]

Unforunately, no other stage piano provides as good an action so isn't worth mentioning. Basically, it's the MP11SE or RD2000 as best choice.

*Portable pianos:
Again, these are just slab versions of mid-range clavinova cabinet pianos. They are less functional that stage pianos, so in my opinion, not worth considering for your situation.

*VST controller pianos.
Kawai make a VST controller digital piano---the Kawai VPC1--- that has no internal sounds and a similar action to the Kawai MP11SE.
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Billy Joel tours with a VPC1 and uses a fake piano cabinet to make it appear like he's playing a grand piano. I.e., something like this.
[Linked Image]

In order to provide high-quality sound source, you basically either carry a laptop around with you, or ---more likely in your situation---you utilize hardware like the Muse Receptor; Seelake AudioStation; Peavey MuseBox etc., to have a more secure system to load the VST instruments into. For instance, Billy Joel's team I think used to use 2 Muse Receptors (one as backup). VST pianos include Garritan CFX grand; VST Hamburg D-274; etc.

Davidrosenthal and the muse receptor

The more tech phobic the pianist, the more likely they will prefer the hybrid option. The more the pianist is into mixing sounds and having an all-in-one do it all machine, the more likely they'd prefer the workstation or stage-piano route. The VST-controller option is mainly for people who want the hightest quality sounds with a really good action and nothing else.

Hope that helps
2 81 Read More
Piano Forum Jump to new posts
Re: Replacing fallboard decal Gombessa 1 minute ago
Originally Posted by WhoDwaldi
I saw a piano once that had the decal (on purpose, by the maker) way off to the right, with the center of the fallboard blank. I thought, How on Earth is one supposed to find Middle C? laugh

I've always thought the logo placement here was kind of weird, but interesting:


[Linked Image]
4 52 Read More
Piano Forum Jump to new posts
Re: Would you order an polished ebony or a Satin wood finish? Gombessa 3 minutes ago
Originally Posted by tre corda
I am talking of people ordering without trying the piano. (mainly, yes "verboten" by some, still it happens)

I'm of the impression that when you special order a piano, you are committed to purchasing it without trying first, right? The very best you can reasonably hope for is that the dealer will let you swap with an identical one in stock, or possibly upgrade to a more expensive one at cost if you don't like it (the dealer I purchased this offered this if I ordered new). But in the case of a custom or exotic finish instrument, I doubt they can/will make that offer.

In that sense, the very highest tier of instrument in a given line/brand (by cost), whether a Yamaha C-series or Steinway D or Fazioli F308, is by necessity "buy-without-trying", simply because they have to make it to your order/specifications?
37 573 Read More
Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Jump to new posts
Re: Your "Best Digital Piano" Opinion Requested JaneF 5 minutes ago
In that you insist on something self-contained...

Josh Wright is a classical pianist who has said good things about the Nord: https://kit.co/joshwrightpiano/digital-pianos/2448776-nord-piano-4-88-stag
2 81 Read More
Piano Forum Jump to new posts
Re: Replacing fallboard decal WhoDwaldi 7 minutes ago
I saw a piano once that had the decal (on purpose, by the maker) way off to the right, with the center of the fallboard blank. I thought, How on Earth is one supposed to find Middle C? laugh
4 52 Read More
MY NEW PIANO or KEYBOARD! - Share Your Story! Jump to new posts
Re: My new Shigeru Kawai SK2 :) Steven Y. A. 10 minutes ago
Congrats! SK2 is one of the finest piano I have played.
9 339 Read More
Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Jump to new posts
Re: Kawai MP12 Chummy 11 minutes ago
The Osbourne Effect will be avoided if they discontinue the MP11/MP7 very soon but only "formally" acknowledge it a bit later. So they just announce the release date of the upcoming products while less and less of the old ones are trickling in and if they could just time it right, the new ones arrive to the stores just in the nick of time. Doing nothing I'd assume Kawai would lose either way since many people are holding out on a purchase just because of that reason - a product is way past the average "life cycle" of the industry.

Software have a much easier time. If you buy a software like Cubase and a week later a new version comes out you receive a "grace period" in which you are entitled to own the newer version as if you bought it too/
260 67,604 Read More
Adult Beginners Forum Jump to new posts
Re: Temperaments! Again . . .Sorry, guys! peterws 13 minutes ago
There's a vintage Bechstein on Pianoteq I have that uses Well Tempered; I just noticed today, and set it to equal.
Didn't like it . . . .
16 474 Read More
Pianist Corner Jump to new posts
Re: Mendelssohn Op. 54 Variation #13 Sidokar 18 minutes ago
Yes for me it is clear that the same style applies to the entire piece. Now at the beginning of the variation it is written sempre assai leggiero which implies a light touch throughout.
1 159 Read More
Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Jump to new posts
Re: Yamaha rant BMKE 18 minutes ago
Originally Posted by WTF Bach
To be serious: they have the instrument ready (DGX670) - they only have to remove some feature…

If they remove features they'll have to charge more, just like the car industry.
10 188 Read More
Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Jump to new posts
Re: Yamaha rant peterws 19 minutes ago
Originally Posted by WTF Bach
To be serious: they have the instrument ready (DGX670) - they only have to remove some feature…

And it would cost more to re-style the box, 'cos there'd be nowt in it . . . .
10 188 Read More
Member Recordings - Non Classical Pianist Corner Jump to new posts
The Bitter End - Placebo John Pigeon 20 minutes ago
This is my smooth arrangement of this rock song. Hope you enjoy!

0 10 Read More
Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Jump to new posts
Re: Kawai MP12 Peddler100 23 minutes ago
Originally Posted by Gombessa

That's a term I haven't heard in awhile. I remember when that happened, back then I really really wanted a Kaypro. Instead I settled for an Atari 800 XL though I did splurge and get the Indus GT 5 1/4 floppy disk drive and a 300 baud modem. Thanks for the memories from a bygone era of computing.
260 67,604 Read More
Piano Forum Jump to new posts
Re: Story continues, next piano hunting (Higher quality Grand) MrSh4nkly 26 minutes ago
Interesting. Thanks for sharing.
24 586 Read More
Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Jump to new posts
Re: PiaTune Beta Testing RonTuner 27 minutes ago
Got stuck in auto step A0-C8 while in overpull mode.

Enable overpull (works fine) only manual/auto semitone available
Tap graph (A0-C8 auto step)
Go back to tuning screen and it stays on A0-C8. I had to disable overpull and then re enable to get the proper manual/auto semitone back

Ron Koval
212 10,212 Read More
Piano Forum Jump to new posts
Re: Would you order an polished ebony or a Satin wood finish? tre corda 29 minutes ago
dogsperson,
Believe me I get that, but it's subjective.I have noticed that people get incredibly emotional about this "finish" thing. It is almost as though they "feel it in their skin" Not just you a number of people as well on this forum. I myself love wood, some of my furniture and musical instruments are in wood suvh as elm, euroka, oak, a rosewood table, a
Baroque flute in Castello wood. My old Yamaha grand was in a lovely polished mahogany finish, an older European piano in a dark wood finish.Now 1925 Feurich in some sort of dark wood.A Schimmel upright in glorious polished ebony, that looks and plays beautifully.
The Mahogany finish Yamaha grand ended up with spots and freckles after a number of years.The methods covering a piano in polished ebony are now much more advanced and it is very protective.Sure one is careful, and yes it attracts dust. One dealer I know much prefers ordering a piano in PE because it is just so tough, easy to remove dust and of course people are very choosy when it comes to a wood finish.I just wondered why some of those piano brands are so much cheaper in Satin wood? So it's safe ordering one of those in Satin wood. Remember air or sea freight, trucks, movers,.more trucks and movers....finally in ones living room?
I am talking of people ordering without trying the piano. (mainly, yes "verboten" by some, still it happens)
37 573 Read More
Piano Forum Jump to new posts
Re: Story continues, next piano hunting (Higher quality Grand) AJB 30 minutes ago
Yes, this is true. I spend a lot of time in Germany (partly live there - German wife and fluent German) and know how they get the badge accreditation. A degree of scepticism is required as to qualify for "made in Germany labelling, a surprising percentage can be made and partially assembled somewhere completely different. That is economics and marketing. Brands are not daft and they will try to achieve price differentiation for as long as it is sustainable.

10 years is indeed a long time in the piano industry now. When I first became a member here, deep in the mists of time, Chinese pianos in Europe were usually totally dreadful. Now, if you pick the ones aimed at the European instruments (good finish, top notch strings, good action, nice veneers, good hammers etc) then the difference is small. What divides them, I think, is that if you buy say a new £21,000 7ft 3" Feurich it will not have the same level of attention to detail on action regulation, set up, and final finish components as say a European Tier 1 piano costing around £80k + new. But spend £3k to £5k on action work and finessing the Chinese piano (a lot in context of its purchase price) and the two instruments will be MUCH closer than many here might think if they have not played them. I know zippo about US market as I live in UK and Germany.

There will be some noticeable visible differences (eg cheap cross head screws on the lid hinge popped in with an electric driver, versus slotted solid brass hand fitted and all clocked screws on the Steinfazdorfer & Sohn, but if that floats your boat, then then buy some first grade screws and lid hinges for under $100 and replace them by hand. Replace the hammers if you really want. It's peanuts in the overall scheme of things.

Full disclosure: I bought a piano made in Germany. I've had a few German and Austrian and Italian pianos in my life and I love my current one. But.....and it's a big but, having seen what is coming out of China now, and with access to a top notch tech, would I spend £20k (China) or £80k (German top notch) for a semi concert pro grade grand today. Not sure - the quality gap has closed a great deal recently. (I've been helping a friend shop for a good quality grand and seen how the world has changed).

Pianos are far more similar than they are different. Look carefully at the value proposition is my advice. Remember, it's just a tool to make music. You, not it, are the musician.
24 586 Read More
Piano Forum Jump to new posts
Re: Replacing fallboard decal probably blue 37 minutes ago
Originally Posted by Retsacnal
Here's one source:

https://www.decalsunlimited.com

As long as you don't need a St***way decal you should be able to find what you need.
4 52 Read More
Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Jump to new posts
Re: Kawai announces ES120 portable digital piano grandpianorchestra 37 minutes ago
Originally Posted by RinTin
Enough...

USA $899
Europe 859

Go ask your dealer for a 10-15% discount.
That is something you can actually have some control over!

Well put RinTin B)
257 14,541 Read More
Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Jump to new posts
Re: New Piano Day: Kawai CA98 peterws 39 minutes ago
It was construed as an indirect advert. Someone on here, semi-local to Marcus might've offered . . . smile
I'm gonna tell no-one about this Pete Reganni guy who writes rubbish fiction on Amazon Kindle . . .
8 392 Read More
Piano Forum Jump to new posts
Re: Would you order an polished ebony or a Satin wood finish? dogperson 54 minutes ago
Originally Posted by tre corda
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by tre corda
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I am not aware of any piano brands where their least expensive wood finish is less expensive than their polished ebony finish. Even the most basic mahogany finish is usually more expensive and sometimes MUCH more expensive.

When buying from a dealer, the dealer must obviously repair any case damage before a sale so any concern about a satin wood finish being easier to damage is not relevant. Based on what I've read on PW I think poly finishes are tougher but more difficult to repair. I don't think it makes much sense to choose a piano's finish based on what damage might occur in shipment.

Finally, if choosing between an ebony and wood finish why limit the ebony choice to polished and the wood finish to satin?
August Forster for the 125G in Satin Walnut, Mahogany, or Cherry.Would (an example, I am sure there are others) you be CONCERNED about ordering a SATIN Ebony, Walnut, Mahogany, or other wood finish because of damage during delivery?
Remember after arriving in the country, the piano then goes to the dealer to be prepped, then the piano is delivered to your home. If there is a bad scratch (or worse) polished ebony is much easier and costs far less to repair. Many dealers have a technician to repair the PE.If it's a used piano and some of you guys know how to repair such damage, then that is different.

https://www.pianobuyer.com/brand/forster-august/
Actually, Forster is one of the very few makes where satin mahogany is very slightly less than polished ebony. As I previously stated, the opposite is almost always true and wood finishes are sometimes much more expensive than ebony.

I also previously pointed out that high gloss poly finishes may be more durable but the are harder to repair. Finally, since the dealer has to repair these finishes before one orders the piano, the difficulty of repair should not be relevant in choosing the finish one likes. I can't remember a single PW thread where a poster suggested to choose a finish based on how easy the repair would be.
No, see Seiler mentioned above.Sauter 130 prices for Satin Walnut nearly $2,000 less than PE. So many order sight unseen, imagine after waiting for month's to a year, who would want the wood finish repaired? Modern pianos in PE arrive looking perfect and a technician can cover scratches in a minute.Yes the way the instrument sounds is most important.
Many do not try instruments now before they buy them.


I would absolutely never order a piano in PE. Never.
If I found a piano I loved in the showroom in PE, I would, of course, buy it. Touch and tone are my first priorities.
37 573 Read More
Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Jump to new posts
Re: Yamaha rant WTF Bach 58 minutes ago
To be serious: they have the instrument ready (DGX670) - they only have to remove some feature…
10 188 Read More
Piano Forum Jump to new posts
Re: Would you order an polished ebony or a Satin wood finish? mivaldes 58 minutes ago
All things being equal acoustically, I like polished ebony. That said, I looked at an 80s Kawai yesterday in satin, and I have to say I liked that too!!
37 573 Read More
Piano Forum Jump to new posts
Re: Would you order an polished ebony or a Satin wood finish? tre corda 1 hour ago
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by tre corda
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I am not aware of any piano brands where their least expensive wood finish is less expensive than their polished ebony finish. Even the most basic mahogany finish is usually more expensive and sometimes MUCH more expensive.

When buying from a dealer, the dealer must obviously repair any case damage before a sale so any concern about a satin wood finish being easier to damage is not relevant. Based on what I've read on PW I think poly finishes are tougher but more difficult to repair. I don't think it makes much sense to choose a piano's finish based on what damage might occur in shipment.

Finally, if choosing between an ebony and wood finish why limit the ebony choice to polished and the wood finish to satin?
August Forster for the 125G in Satin Walnut, Mahogany, or Cherry.Would (an example, I am sure there are others) you be CONCERNED about ordering a SATIN Ebony, Walnut, Mahogany, or other wood finish because of damage during delivery?
Remember after arriving in the country, the piano then goes to the dealer to be prepped, then the piano is delivered to your home. If there is a bad scratch (or worse) polished ebony is much easier and costs far less to repair. Many dealers have a technician to repair the PE.If it's a used piano and some of you guys know how to repair such damage, then that is different.

https://www.pianobuyer.com/brand/forster-august/
Actually, Forster is one of the very few makes where satin mahogany is very slightly less than polished ebony. As I previously stated, the opposite is almost always true and wood finishes are sometimes much more expensive than ebony.

I also previously pointed out that high gloss poly finishes may be more durable but the are harder to repair. Finally, since the dealer has to repair these finishes before one orders the piano, the difficulty of repair should not be relevant in choosing the finish one likes. I can't remember a single PW thread where a poster suggested to choose a finish based on how easy the repair would be.
No, see Seiler mentioned above.Sauter 130 prices for Satin Walnut nearly $2,000 less than PE. So many order sight unseen, imagine after waiting for month's to a year, who would want the wood finish repaired? Modern pianos in PE arrive looking perfect and a technician can cover scratches in a minute.Yes the way the instrument sounds is most important.
Many do not try instruments now before they buy them.
37 573 Read More
Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Jump to new posts
Re: Yamaha rant WTF Bach 1 hour ago
Originally Posted by Doug M.
Originally Posted by Pete14
we can’t say NO to Bach himself

You do realise that he's not really Bach right? This is 'actually' Swartznegger's handle on pianoworld---"I'll be Bach"

A great - grandchild maybe… Wilhelm Theodosius Frederick…

And… I am bach indeed wink
10 188 Read More
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Replacing fallboard decal
by Acceber - 06/27/22 03:44 PM
Your "Best Digital Piano" Opinion Requested
by IraBob - 06/27/22 02:18 PM
Yamaha rant
by WTF Bach - 06/27/22 01:58 PM
Crowdsourcing Fingerings and Solutions
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Piano vst interesting
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