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Never done it before, but now I have to in Chopin's Waltz in A Minor.
Is it harder on an upright to play trills? It seems my keys don't come up again fast enough. Or maybe it is just me no knowing how to play them correctly. But as upright and grands have different action, it might be easier on grands?

my Kawai K8 upright feels a stiffer than my digital. However as my technique with trills have improved I think this has lessened. I certainly find the upright more forgiving than the digital, and the resistance of the upright more beneficial. Don't forget when you are playing the trills in the piece itself you will most likely have the sustain pedal down which will make it easier. Practising without the pedal might feel harder but either way it all comes down to technique.

Although I can trill with fingers 1 & 2, and 2 & 3, which I think is the easiest for everyone, I now am learning a piece where I need to trill while holding a note down with 1 and trilling with 3 & 4. My teacher's advice - trill all throughout the day as often as you can.

Grand actions have a repetition lever. It holds the hammer closer to the string so that repeated notes are faster. It comes into play when the key is not released fully, like in a trill. Plus grand actions use gravity to assist. Uprights do not have repetition levers and because of their upright stance they don't get much assistance from gravity.

So yes, repetition is easier and faster on a grand than an upright, assuming they are both in good condition.

There is a fairly easy test for upright action sluggishness. Raise the lid so you can see the action. Press the left (soft) pedal. On most uprights, this moves all the hammers closer to the strings. Now let the pedal go. All the hammers should move back to their resting position quickly. I tuned an old spinet the other day where I could count to 3 seconds before all the the hammers settled back - could not play a trill on that piano!

Sam

The most important thing is to acquire good technique. There's a good video on the subject on the "Hungarian Piano Tradition" channel on YouTube. Relaxation is by far the most important thing. The Chopin should be quite playable on an upright, but trills take work and patience if you haven't done them before.

Trills are a bit harder on an upright than a grand, but still possible.

Also, try using fingers 1&3 for a trill if possible (it depends on the context). This combination you can use a bit of rotation and it's much less fatiguing.

Also, 3&5 for trills where the thumb is pre-occupied.

If someone can help me to get this thrill better. It just doesn't sound at the moment. What am I doing wrong?
https://goo.gl/photos/BLdNHNJjjRSXWJpQA

[video:youtube]jGiKOLvrtZQ[/video]

Your fingers are hugging the keys so that you don't have any airtime to complete the trill.

Try keeping your wrist and fingers light and loose. Start by bouncing off the F with your 3rd finger (note before the trill) and pretend a balloon is floating up. Then when you come down on the E with your 2nd finger, you'll have some momentum and lift to trill with 2-3. As the trill becomes more even, you won't have to exaggerate the "bounce".

Get your fingers off the keys and up in the air (slightly). Even if it is just thinking that you are. This always helps me. And it may give your upright action a chance to recover...

Sam

Play just the trill with your RH and let that pinky relax between every note. Start at around one second per note. Just the trill, no more. Don't repeat it too much. Three to five times then move on to another piece and come back to it between all your other piano tasks. Do not repeat passages that you can't play. You're working-in that failing trill making it harder and harder to ever get right.

Continue to play the measures before this and the ones after this that you CAN play but leave this one - and any others with a technical difficulty. This will avoid building apprehension and tension into the easier measures as well as avoid working-in the errors and failings. If you must repeat the measure, play it without the trill until the trill is working perfectly in isolation.

If the trill is working slowly the next day add the note before it and the one after it and move on to two notes a second.

Then add the other hand and let the tempo rise as the facility increases and the repeats are flawless.

Then add the surrounding measures.

Remember, get it right first, then practise it.

I'd like to see a little more bounce/air going into the trill. like, wheeee! Like zrtf90 said, don't repeat it too much. Too much anticipation over the trill is not what you want. Trills are lightweight and ephemeral.

The five notes coming down from A should be even. The grace notes are to bring lift to one of those notes. It should not jolt it out of tempo. There are lots of (similar) grace notes in this piece and one trill at the end. The difference as I see it, is that the grace notes bring greater focus to the note immediately following it. The trill at the end is different though, as it actually gets the focus.

As such, I'd also suggest practicing these sections without the grace notes at all and ensure the integrity of pulse is not lost as they are fit back in (after being practiced in isolation as above).

Yes, absolutely it is.

This is one reason people who seem to have no issues spending money will say that a student needs a grand piano as soon as they start playing trills. ::rolls eyes::

But, of course, trills can be done on an upright. The techniques mentioned above regarding getting your fingers above the keys is to compensate for a slow, upright action. So, you gotta do what you gotta do *on your specific piano.*

On my own upright, for example, I do not have to leave the surface of the keys whatsoever to play fast, even trills.

Hi Johan, Have you decided whether you want to start the trill on the beat or before the beat? Right now it sounds as if you're trying to do both -- meaning you end up trying to start and complete the trill at the same instant.

Either on the beat or before the beat is correct in Chopin (although some people do have dogmatic opinions one way or the other!) You can do it the way your ear prefers.

Either way, you have to steal time from one of the beats in order to make room for the ornamental notes. The 8th note before or after the trill must be significantly shorter than normal to allow time for the ornament.

If starting on the beat, the ornament occurs during the beat, meaning that the last note of the ornament will not sound like a full 8th note, it will be shorter. If you play the ornament in a leisurely way it may sound like the three notes of the ornament form a triplet; or the ornament plus the following 8th note might even sound like four 16th notes. (That last one probably sounds too stodgy for the style of the piece, but it might be good to practice it that way for a day or two to help you separate the notes of the ornament a little more.)

If starting before the beat, the 8th note before the beat will be quite short, because the ornamental notes will take up the last part of it and then the main note will arrive on the beat.

(I wouldn't go into the air at all before the trill, because that breaks up the melodic line, and because I think the rhythmic question is easier to answer without introducing a rest, even a very short rest.)

Oooo I didn't consider that part about the melodic line. I should've said in your head, it is as if you're in the air, or imagine it's like you're flying in the air (but don't actually fly). I'm not sure if that makes sense, I think this teacher explains the floating feeling I'm thinking of:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv4nN-Bc9YA

I meant to do it before the beat. It just it's not that easy. I see my teacher this week wand will discuss if this piece if just too hard for the moment...

Hi Johan, Why not just start the trills a little earlier, farther away from the beat, so they can be played slower?

We are going to let it rest for a while and come back to it another time. In the meanwhile I got an arrangement of Fly me to the moon, which sounds a lot of fun to play.
Heather, would you be so kind to record the stuff you were explaining about making the trills easier, so I can hear what you mean and practice it? Would be a lot of help. Thx, Johan

PS: you mean like adding the trill to the previous bar's last note and make that a triplet?

Ok have fun with Fly Me to the Moon!
In the meantime here are examples.
Vladimir Ashkenazy plays the trill before the beat--trill starts early and the trill's last note lines up with the LH on the beat. Also, he artistically varies the speed of the trills based on which section he's in. In the "heavier" sections the trill is slower, and in the "lighter" sections faster.

Claudio Arrau plays the trills on the beat. The first note of the trill lines up with the LH on the beat, and the other notes occur later.

Also, both these guys are allowing themselves more time for the trill than you are