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Oh, btw, Spam isn't looked askance at in some parts of the world. My girls like it, and we usually have a can or two in the house. It reminds them of their childhood in Jakarta.
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I find it slightly amusing how orchestra webpages have "Donate" buttons everywhere, as if they are charities. They are, quite simply, people who want to get paid to do something they enjoy and find fulfilling. Symphony orchestras are non-profit businesses that cannot survive on revenue from ticket sales alone and therefore must rely on other revenue sources to break even - including individual contributions. They are no different than non-profit museums, opera and theater companies. If a community values these institutions they must support them through ticket sales as well as public (government) and private (individual, corporate) contributions. What's a non-profit business? You mean they don't have shareholders or investors to pay? They are still profitable for the staff who work at them who, like I said, want to get paid to do something they enjoy. I mean, they don't go around looking for funding and donations because they are selflessly concerned about the cultural contribution they make. They're acting in self-interest. If the public does not particularly want these services, because they prefer to listen to music on youtube while lying on their beds, or watch netflix instead of attending the theater, one would have to think carefully about what the reason is to subsidize them. Anyway, I'm not particularly against government funding of the arts. But I did want to highlight that people who expect donations and public subsidy would unlikely be keen to donate their own money to support someone else's favourite (or allegedly culturally significant) activity. I think the overarching dynamic is that many arts groups are non-profit almost out of necessity, because they are sadly not profitable, or wouldn't be on their own. And many musicians are hustling to scratch out a living. I don't know if things have changed in my hometown (I moved away a long time ago), but Augusta and Savannah Georgia, and Columbia South Carolina largely shared a symphony. They'd put together a show and the professional musicians would trek between the three cities to get the most bang for their buck (i.e. they were members of all "three" symphonies). They were augmented by a handful of competent locals. And these were fairly talented musicians with degrees from good schools. Most were also adjuncting at colleges in the area, often more than one. Musicians want money so that they can have: Cars, houses, plane tickets, computers, lawn mowers, microwaves etc etc. Yet all of these things require people to study and do things that aren't necessarily that interesting or romantic. Hammering in nails in 35 degree sun, or drawing up the schematic for the electronics of a microwave, are not as romantic as being an admired travelling concert pianist, performing in concert halls in beautiful European cities. If they want to try and get paid to do something they find fulfilling, but the public doesn't particularly want from them, that's fine. I'm just saying I don't think people trying to do something they enjoy constitute a charitable cause.
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Musicians want money so that they can have: Cars, houses, plane tickets, computers, lawn mowers, microwaves etc etc. Yet all of these things require people to study and do things that aren't necessarily that interesting or romantic. Hammering in nails in 35 degree sun, or drawing up the schematic for the electronics of a microwave, are not as romantic as being an admired travelling concert pianist, performing in concert halls in beautiful European cities. If they want to try and get paid to do something they find fulfilling, but the public doesn't particularly want from them, that's fine. I'm just saying I don't think people trying to do something they enjoy constitute a charitable cause. I don't disagree with you. At the same time, I'm glad they are generally able to scrape up the resources needed to keep going, because I enjoy participating as an audience member (or at least did before Covid). When I was younger, I enjoyed participating in choral things (gratis).
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I remember when I was in a high school maths class, one of the students was declaring how he wanted to be an actor. I'm not sure how this topic arose, perhaps he meant that it didn't matter that his marks in maths were low because he was going to be an actor anyway. The maths teacher was trying to explain that it's very hard to make a career as an actor. The student was outraged, and told the maths teacher that it was unacceptable to discourage people from their dreams! "I'm just saying that the percentage of people who make it big is very small", said the maths teacher.
I also remember this student because once when we arrived at the classroom there was no chair at my desk, so I took one from one of the many empty desks to use. The student decided that, since he had intended to sit there, I had effectively stolen his chair, even though he hadn't yet sat there. So he rudely "stole" it back. There were plenty of other chairs he could have taken, and I just took a different one.
Anyway, I wonder if that student went on to become a highly paid actor. Or became a very low paid actor struggling to find work. Or eventually realised he should do something useful. Or was just too stupid to ever do anything useful.
Last edited by Sonepica; 01/12/22 11:10 PM.
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Actors aren't always the sharpest tools in the shed, are they? I'm old enough that I don't remember a lot about school, but I do remember the first night of classes in my MBA program, which I did after about 10 years of life experience. The norm is for everyone to introduce themselves. I remember one classmate announcing that her undergraduate degree was in Accounting, and that after the MBA she was going to get a PhD in Finance! I thought, "what? Accounting and an MBA is not the route to a PhD in Finance!" And another guy was such a blowhard that I thought, "stay away from him." But by the end of the program he was my best friend in the program, and that young lady did go on to get a PhD in Finance! Things don't always go the way you expect or want them to. My favorite classes in the MBA program were Economics and Finance, but I'm glad I did the undergrad Econ prerequisites in a school where Economics was taught as a social science, because Business Economics tends to focus on the bottom line, and that leaves a lot out (IMO).
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Perhaps he ended up teaching Drama in a university or he perhaps now reads the weather report on the radio.Sonnepica I enjoy recordings but they are really reproductions of music, so standardized.After a number of times of listening to Beethoven's concerto no3 by a DVD I grew to dislike the piece. It took listening to a brilliant performance to make me like the piece again.(however I never listen to that recording anymore, even though it was of a great pianist pianist) Listening to recordings are enjoyable and we can learn from them. On the whole though the magic is not really there.We only think it is for a while only.
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Perhaps he ended up teaching Drama in a university or he perhaps now reads the weather report on the radio.Sonnepica I enjoy recordings but they are really reproductions of music, so standardized.After a number of times of listening to Beethoven's concerto no3 by a DVD I grew to dislike the piece. It took listening to a brilliant performance to make me like the piece again.(however I never listen to that recording anymore, even though it was a great pianist playing it) Listening to recordings are enjoyable and we can learn from them. On the whole though the magic is not really there.We only think it is for a while only. That's fine. But presumably the fact that orchestras struggle to attract people, and audiences are aging, suggests that most people don't think it's worth it?
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I can admire people who chase their dreams. And especially paying their dues.
This is well-worn ground, but there's a running joke in NYC, and I presume other places where people hope to make it big, that everyone introduces themselves in two ways: "Hi, I'm an actor, but I'm working as a waiter," or "I'm a dancer, but I'm working as a barista."
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That's fine. But presumably the fact that orchestras struggle to attract people, and audiences are aging, suggests that most people don't think it's worth it? Please speak for yourself (haha). Symphony orchestra audiences have been aging for decades, and historically only a small segment of the population has ever attended live orchestral performances. Additionally the marginalization /elimination of music education programs in the schools over the past 60 years has significantly reduced understanding and appreciation of classical music. Then, of course, there are many things that compete for the general public's entertainment dollar. Despite all of this, I have no doubt that the arts will survive. I would never discourage anyone from pursuing a career in music if they have the talent and passion - as long as they are realistic about it and have a Plan B in case things don't work out for them.
Last edited by Carey; 01/13/22 03:30 AM.
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I don't know for sure, but I would think Symphony Orchestra musicians would have somewhat of a steady income, and a good one. But, again, I'm just speculating because I don't know any Orchestra musicians personally. I did, however, work with a guy at the technical college, who worked as a part-time police officer for the college, who was also a retired fireman/arson investigator with one of the large metro Atlanta counties. He was also a violinists/fiddle player, and a good one, and I mean really good. He played in a bluegrass band, who got paid whenever they played a gig. Not sure how much the band was payed, but they were good enough they didn't have to play for free. I said all that to say this... he also played the violin/fiddle as a recording musician for some of the many recording studios around the metro Atlanta area fairly regularly. He said he got paid $300 per session/recording, which was one song/piece. If he played two songs/pieces he got $600. Again, he was that good, and had a great personality to go along with it. I played my 5-string banjo with him and a few other musicians, who worked at the college, for some special events a few times. It was a pleasure to play with such a fine musician. Made me feel like a real musician! And, while I'm here, and drinking my second cup of morning coffee:-), my oldest son is a guitar player and a good one, and I mean really good (but I may be biased a little ). He has his own HVAC company and has been very successful at it. He said one of his customers, who had heard him play the guitar with his blues band, asked him why he was working in HVAC and not in Nashville making big bucks as a guitar player. My son replied and said there were many guitar players in Nashville who were way better than him working in restaurants as waiters or working in construction waiting on their big break in the music/entertainment business. So, yes, I'm sure one could earn a good living in the field of music if they work hard at it, stick with it and pursue the right opportunities, and, have a plan B, as Carey mentioned. Wishing musicians everywhere all the best! Rick
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
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The symphony musicians I was referring to were in a relatively small town. Augusta and Savannah aren't too big. Columbia, SC is slightly bigger. The 3 form a triangle of about an hour drive between any of them. I thought it was pretty clever to sort of join forces, and they would brand themselves with whichever city they were performing in: Augusta/Columbia/Savannah Symphony Orchestra! my oldest son is a guitar player and a good one, and I mean really good (but I may be biased a little smile ) I've seen some of your son's videos, and I'd agree that he's an excellent guitarist.
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The symphony musicians I was referring to were in a relatively small town. Augusta and Savannah aren't too big. Columbia, SC is slightly bigger. The 3 form a triangle of about an hour drive between any of them. I thought it was pretty clever to sort of join forces, and they would brand themselves with whichever city they were performing in: Augusta/Columbia/Savannah Symphony Orchestra! my oldest son is a guitar player and a good one, and I mean really good (but I may be biased a little smile ) I've seen some of your son's videos, and I'd agree that he's an excellent guitarist. Thanks, Retsacnal! Yea, my son takes after his dad. Oh, wait, on second thought, he is a much better musician than his dad will ever be. But it is nice to take some credit for his musical abilities. I had the little fellow playing the guitar in a family Gospel music group when he was about 12 years old. My youngest son played the electric bass guitar, which was bigger than he was at the time. Some great memories for sure. My oldest son has had a few paying gigs, and played the guitar in a Church praise band for a relatively large Church, for which he was paid each week. I concur with the comments of some others here that teaching music lessons and working with the larger Church music programs is a good source of steady income for good musicians. So, yes, there are opportunities for careers in music for those who pursue that field with enthusiasm and determination. Rick
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
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I have no idea what has inspired this whole thread? It just seems so very negative.
My piano's voice is my voice to God and the great unknown universe, and to those I love. In other words a hymn. That is all, but that is enough. tre corda
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I have no idea what has inspired this whole thread? It just seems so very negative. Well to bring us back on topic, there are careers that pay 4 to 6 times as much as what many musicians make. You could do consulting work just a couple of hours a day, and then spend the rest of the day giving music performances for free. My advice for most people would be to pursue another, much more effective way of making money, in addition to what they enjoy.
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I do not believe a society would survive without highly trained musicians and other artists.A society built only around materialism and commercialism will fail.Commercial music and art is everywhere.There is a Chinese saying I think it goes something like this "If a man only has two pennies (or cents), let him buy some bread with the one penny.With the other penny he should buy some flowers" That is my credo, I would rather "kick the bucket" than not buy those flowers!
My piano's voice is my voice to God and the great unknown universe, and to those I love. In other words a hymn. That is all, but that is enough. tre corda
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No one is suggesting not having musicians and actors. The question is around how many society needs. With recorded music and video, a small number of musicians and actors are able to entertain everyone all at once. There are far more people who want to be actors than society is willing to pay for, hence un and under employment.
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No one is suggesting not having musicians and actors. The question is around how many society needs. With recorded music and video, a small number of musicians and actors are able to entertain everyone all at once. There are far more people who want to be actors than society is willing to pay for, hence un and under employment. Sonepica that is what it seems to be about, but I think the way the thread is going or perhaps even in the OP's original post it may be about a great deal more than what is stated. I do not know how you forbid your talented son or daughter to study thier choice of subject.( music, art, drama at college or university).Even if thier talents are not phenomenal people are complex and life is even more so. Who is to say that people studying economics or computer science are going to be successful human beings.You notice I did not say wealthy human beings.
My piano's voice is my voice to God and the great unknown universe, and to those I love. In other words a hymn. That is all, but that is enough. tre corda
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No one is suggesting not having musicians and actors. The question is around how many society needs. With recorded music and video, a small number of musicians and actors are able to entertain everyone all at once. You should definitely use this statement in your application to work for the the RAPM. Should play well.
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On the subject of music versus math, every year I go through the New York Times list of people who died the previous year, to see how many I had tuned for. This year there were only two, one musician and one mathematician.
I get requests to donate to Mathematics at Berkeley, as it was one of my majors, so indeed, people do ask to donate to mathematicians.
I have also known people who take a variety of odd, low-paying jobs so they can play around with mathematics. I also know people who have developed skills and talents in music that have enabled them to get high-paying jobs in other fields, in addition to playing music. And then there are people like myself, who do not have a lot of musical talent, but still manage to be fairly successful in music. Not all the career opportunities in music involve playing music.
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