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Took a few lessons at age 5 that didn't go anywhere. In my school days played violin. In my case I don't have to learn to read like a beginner. It's the matter of learning fingerings & techniques of doing the things I used to do on the violin like slurs, staccato, loud & soft.
Don't turn piano learning into an academic exercise. From the start, I have a list of pieces I want to learn and eventually play them. I've seen a lot of videos of learners start from the beginning and get to play their favorite pieces on their own.
The last piece I worked on before the New Year was "Jingle Bell Rock". You can find easy piano versions but the arrangement I played has octave stretches and lots of RH chords. Regardless what level you're at, the first thing you need is regular practice about an hour a day (every day of the week) if possible. Even when my teacher is taking time off I'd be home practicing just the same.
Like most people, I learned key signature, time signature, counting beats and all the required stuff before. I also make recordings along the way... at least 1 sound recording at the end of each practice to track my progress. I'd listen on my spare time so I know exactly what to work on. It's also an ear training exercise. You learn to listen and appreciate music without looking at the sheet. From time to time I'd check the sheet for accuracy of course.
I have heard a lot about the benefits of mathematics in learning to play the piano. There are studies that confirm that students who can play any musical instrument show better results than others. I studied poorly, only https://plainmath.net/ and daily reproaches that I studied poorly from my parents rescued me. But despite this, I believe that I have achieved good results in my musical skills. And with the help of online resources, I was able to study well, because I received Math homework help and answers.
Jeff ------- I think that maybe not necessarily the math itself --- but the knowledge and exposure to ways of thinking and processing etc. The more exposure we get to a variety of fields - such as music itself, the arts, the sciences (which I think could be an 'art' too), and engineering --- applied science and applied knowledge for doing certain things, languages, communications and many other fields/areas, can benefit either music learning and playing ------ composing etc. It might not be necessary for all music areas ------- but yes of course ----- certain levels and amounts of education has potential benefits. It depends on what the aims or goals are as well. We obviously don't all need every one or even most of these components. But various components can help. A person's own potential or potential ability helps too ----- such as some people are really born with (or somehow developed) super memories, and/or relatively fast thinking/processing abilities, which we all know about.
For anybody that just likes music and wants to play the piano, I just think that it doesn't matter what our hypothetical potential is. We just get in there anyway, and enjoy learning to play the piano. If we're privileged and lucky enough to even be able to have a piano of any sort, then we just get in there and just learn, and play.
In my younger days, I was not particularly great in any field. Some fields like music, history, geography I did better. The idea that 1 field of study affects the performance in another never crossed my mind such that being good in math would improve your ability to learn a foreign language like French or Spanish.
When learning to play music, most would start with easier pieces. A total beginner would play pieces with LH & RH alternates 1 note at a time. And starting with pieces in C or ones with few sharps & flats, common time signatures, no tricky fingerings or big jumps, etc.
There are practice pieces for legato, staccato, playing with dynamics. The other pieces I'll work on specific techniques as required.
These discussions made me think deeply about my current situation. I agree 100% with Bennevis. I retired a few months ago and enrolled in music department as a music major concentrating piano. Soon after I started the school I realized I am no good as a pianist at this point. I cannot play even a simple piece musically, enough to move people. I have been taking lessons more than 10 years and playing piano on my own at least 20 years including childhood lessons. I regret buying into the theory that adult should be taught differently etc. My pianistic growth was not balanced at all. I have serious gaps.
Why did it happen this way? As someone pointed out, I think having clear goals is very important. I had none. I knew I could not be professionally so vaguely wished that I would get better at playing the piano by just playing the pieces. I got a teacher that humor my ambiguity by continuing to give me big pieces even though I could not play them well. It’s my own fault. She has two different kind of students, young ones bound for music schools and old one playing slow romantic pieces (not well). I think she put me in the old ones category. I can see her logic now. “There is no harm to have the old ones play Scriabin, some Chopin nocturnes, Barber etc since they are just playing for themselves.”
I slowly realized that the old ones are not making progress. Then I started getting disillusioned with all her friendliness and having lunches with us old ones - was it all customer service of sort? I now have goals. I would like to play for hospitals and care homes as a volunteer. I would like to move people. I would like to communicate what moved me in the music to others. I don’t need to earn money by would like to deserve people’s time to hear me. I started taking special lessons to fill the gap using method books with a Russian teacher. She pay huge attention to sound quality. I really like what I’m learning. School is taking care of Music theory, sight singing and aural perception. I’m getting better at it slowly. When I started noticing the difference P5, P4, TT first time a joy went through my spines. I felt like Helen Keller recognizing the word water with the water.
FarmGirl, I was hoping you would write an update. Not easy at all to realise that you have serious gaps in your piano playing. But also, such a great opportunity to fill in the gaps and to learn to play in way that moves other people! I am sure that you will succeed.
Playing the piano is learning to create, playfully and deeply seriously, our own music in the world. * ... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...
These discussions made me think deeply about my current situation. I agree 100% with Bennevis. I retired a few months ago and enrolled in music department as a music major concentrating piano. Soon after I started the school I realized I am no good as a pianist at this point. I cannot play even a simple piece musically, enough to move people. I have been taking lessons more than 10 years and playing piano on my own at least 20 years including childhood lessons. I regret buying into the theory that adult should be taught differently etc. My pianistic growth was not balanced at all. I have serious gaps.
Why did it happen this way? As someone pointed out, I think having clear goals is very important. I had none. I knew I could not be professionally so vaguely wished that I would get better at playing the piano by just playing the pieces. I got a teacher that humor my ambiguity by continuing to give me big pieces even though I could not play them well. It’s my own fault. She has two different kind of students, young ones bound for music schools and old one playing slow romantic pieces (not well). I think she put me in the old ones category. I can see her logic now. “There is no harm to have the old ones play Scriabin, some Chopin nocturnes, Barber etc since they are just playing for themselves.”
I slowly realized that the old ones are not making progress. Then I started getting disillusioned with all her friendliness and having lunches with us old ones - was it all customer service of sort? I now have goals. I would like to play for hospitals and care homes as a volunteer. I would like to move people. I would like to communicate what moved me in the music to others. I don’t need to earn money by would like to deserve people’s time to hear me. I started taking special lessons to fill the gap using method books with a Russian teacher. She pay huge attention to sound quality. I really like what I’m learning. School is taking care of Music theory, sight singing and aural perception. I’m getting better at it slowly. When I started noticing the difference P5, P4, TT first time a joy went through my spines. I felt like Helen Keller recognizing the word water with the water.
Perhaps the best thing to do is to stop believing things happen in this world in a linear fashion. Here's a wonderful article that discusses the non-linear learning way of thinking. article
A simple Google search with the keywords "learning is non-linear" will show you how far general education has gone from thinking that we need to keep children in straight jackets and allow them to learn at their own pace- fast or slow, in steps or geometrically, with advanced materials for some and less advanced materials for others, to work with their own learning preferences. How to learn anything is a very open-ended process. It rarely occurs in levels or through levels it often times occurs through leaps and bounds, starts, stops, and temporary plateaus.
Progress is also non-linear. It too has its ups and downs, peaks and valleys. I really like this video as the presenter emphasizes how "mindful practice" and perseverance are two of the primary keys to learning the piano well and from my own experience I see how so true this is.
Finally, we understand that even the very movements we make at the piano emerge in a non-linear, self organizing fashion that evolves from an interaction between the individual, the task, and environment. This is a near irrefutable argument held by movement experts in various fields. Article
The problem with a strict linear model of teaching through "standardized" syllabus is that these models assume that everyone- children, teens, adults learn the exact same way and the assumption is that if someone fails at learning the piano it is the fault of the individual, not the tasks he/she was asked to do, or the environment they are placed in. They say, "oh that individual was just not disciplined, didn't work hard enough, wanted to learn too advanced material too soon, not gifted enough, bad DNA, non-musical, stubborn, not following the steps, or even worse arrogant so they failed to learn the piano". The individual gets the blame. Not the environment they are in or what they are being asked to do (the task). The latter two often times the fault of the teacher NOT the student. Some teachers just believe that just because a very VERY small subset of all piano students (particularly THEMSELVES) were successful from following a standardized syllabus this linear way of teaching through levels must be the only way. So they continue to teach the way they were taught and succeeded and assume it will work for everyone else and this is just NOT the case. Anywhere from 50-80% will fail following the prescribed syllabi.
If we already understand that all movement and motor learning activities including learning the piano emerge from an interaction between the environment, the task, and the makeup of the individual the best thing for any student or teacher to do is to find what is the optimal environment and task (studies) that would be most effective for each individual's learning style. It's not always about following RCM or ABRSM. It could mean allowing a student to explore music that one would think is way beyond their assumed level. Look at prodigies for example. Why constrain a 4 year old to Mary had a little lamb if that individual is ready for a concerto? From my own experience as a piano student. I never learned through any syllabus, method book, video, nor have I ever learned scales, arpeggios, or exercises but I got somewhere with my music simply by playing harder and harder pieces throughout my life. I shouldn't be able to do anything that I do since I had NONE of the traditional ways of teaching until adult life. I find that that was probably my best learning style. It might not be for others. Others could progress just as effectively or more effectively through syllabus, exercises, scales and RCM and others would just throw their hands up in the air and give up as their teachers try and try to ram this stuff down their throats.
My point is, if you are looking for that magic bullet to learning anything through a specific set of studies you might be just setting yourself up for disappointment, or not. You have to find the best balance in which environment you learn best and what kinds of study materials you learn best from and that usually requires a qualified teacher with a flexible mind and good insight on non-linear teaching methods not someone who will look down upon you for trying something different. You don't want to learn piano from someone who teaches you the way they were taught because it simply may not work for you. You want someone to figure out your learning style and put you in the proper environment ( usually a fun positive one), with the appropriate study materials that suits YOU not them.
From my own experience as a piano student. I never learned through any syllabus, method book, video, nor have I ever learned scales, arpeggios, or exercises but I got somewhere with my music simply by playing harder and harder pieces throughout my life.
I agree that progress is non-linear for piano skill/level development.
Before you were able to play harder and harder pieces ----- did you initially build some foundation through some syllabus or method book or video? If you had some foundation to start with, then that foundation would have come from a teacher or book or video?
From my own experience as a piano student. I never learned through any syllabus, method book, video, nor have I ever learned scales, arpeggios, or exercises but I got somewhere with my music simply by playing harder and harder pieces throughout my life.
I agree that progress is non-linear for piano skill/level development.
Before you were able to play harder and harder pieces ----- did you initially build some foundation through some syllabus or method book or video? If you had some foundation to start with, then that foundation would have come from a teacher or book or video?
No I didn't have any foundation built from syllabus, method book, or video. I had organ lessons at 5 years of age at a mall. My teacher taught me the very very basics. Every good boy does fine and face. Simple time signature and here Jethro these are keys. She did teach me basic major chords. After that she just introduced me to music and I had very good ear and could repeat anything she played for me by listening. I could do the same thing with anything I heard on the radio. All I received from my organ teacher was smiles and lots of hugs. What I could do at the organ I could do very well, but she commented to my dad that I was playing by ear. When my parents bought a piano I was around 11 or 12 and I just sat in front of it stared at some music and began counting lines to figure out what note corresponded to what key on the piano and went from there song by song, piece by piece figuring out as time went on what everything on the page meant and listening. By the time I went to an adult conservatory it was like jungle boy meets piano. I had no concept of proper fingering, proper piano technique etc.. and never played much if any classical music. Everything had to be taught from scratch but I started with advanced piano pieces such as Beethoven Sonatas. Nothing was held back. It took me a year just to get an understanding what finger corresponded to what number like the 4th finger on the left hand was the ring finger. My fingers were moving like a contortionist it's a small wonder that I never had an injury while playing the piano. Now 6 or 7 of formal lessons and 20 years later, yes I very much do my best to follow all rules, time signatures, fingering, watching all details on the page but my foundation was pretty much my own. It was by no means the best. Absolutely NOT the way to learn piano. The point being that it is possible to learn piano without following any of the recommended ways of learning.
I had organ lessons at 5 years of age at a mall. My teacher taught me the very very basics. Every good boy does fine and face. Simple time signature and here Jethro these are keys. She did teach me basic major chords. After that she just introduced me to music
Organ keyboard skills certainly can translate to piano. Pretty much the same 'lever' style - except the piano keys have a different feeling when pushing the keys. The organ teacher was starting you off with basics, EGBDF, FACE, etc. Did that organ teacher also show you some basics of reading some sheet music in order to play the notes on the organ? Or do you mean that the teacher didn't get to that stage of teaching you to read some music? You mentioned that she introduced you to music -------- does that mean she at least guided you with at least some note reading from a book, and she taught you a little bit of which finger to use when playing some basic tunes?
Or the organ teacher didn't get to that stage? (as in you didn't take organ lessons long enough for her to teach you some basic notes reading, and keyboard playing - including some basic finger pattern instructions?)
I had organ lessons at 5 years of age at a mall. My teacher taught me the very very basics. Every good boy does fine and face. Simple time signature and here Jethro these are keys. She did teach me basic major chords. After that she just introduced me to music
Organ keyboard skills certainly can translate to piano. Pretty much the same 'lever' style - except the piano keys have a different feeling when pushing the keys. The organ teacher was starting you off with basics, EGBDF, FACE, etc. Did that organ teacher also show you some basics of reading some sheet music in order to play the notes on the organ? Or do you mean that the teacher didn't get to that stage of teaching you to read some music? You mentioned that she introduced you to music -------- does that mean she at least guided you with at least some note reading from a book, and she taught you a little bit of which finger to use when playing some basic tunes?
Or the organ teacher didn't get to that stage? (as in you didn't take organ lessons long enough for her to teach you some basic notes reading, and keyboard playing - including some basic finger pattern instructions?)
We went through a lot of songs. She would play it for me. I would listen and play it back. She taught me how to read the notes on the page and rudimentary of music. The staff, bass clef, treble clef. How to play the bass notes with my feet. Basic chords in the left hand melody with the right. You would have to have some orientation of what a keyboard was. At 4 years my dad told me I was trying to make music on a toy organ my aunt purchased my siblings and my father bought an electric organ for the family. The earliest memory I have was hearing my uncle play that organ very well. I was mesmerized and I started fiddling around with the toy organ after that. My father knew of the 6 children he had I would be the one who wanted lessons and he was right. Though I could read basic notes and chords I played mostly by ear. I would think the highest level I got with the teacher in regards to music was March of the wooden soldiers probably an advanced beginner piece. I played that piece by ear though.
There are several posters here who play mostly by ear and self taught. We have an adult student who just joined our academy. He can’t read music at all and he presented an RCM level 1 piece at our last group class. He wants to learn how to read music. After that piece he played another piece he composed himself by watching videos on how to play with Synesthesia for example. It was a beautiful piece. I would say mid intermediate level played very well by this young man. He couldn’t read a lick of music but produced something wonderful at the piano. The academy is now going to take his ear learning strengths and teach the fundamentals around that. That’s how I continue to learn as well. I’m not an advanced player just a beginner with plenty of holes and weaknesses to work on, fundamentals that need work but I prefer to do it the way I always have through the music under the guidance of a teacher but that teacher has to be open minded and flexible or from experience I know that relationship wont work. My experience with nearly all my teachers has always been wonderful. They see what I can do and work around it. I’m pretty certain if I had a teacher who understood my learning style all these years and continued to teach me following the path I was taking but wisely and creatively filling all the missing details I would be a pretty good pianist by now. Unfortunately for the most part I was self taught so some of the fundamentals are still missing. But I can play the piano to the enjoyment for myself and others- that wasn’t missing because I always made playing the piano a fun activity. I was working but it did not feel like work to me.
Last edited by Ken Knapp; 04/16/2203:29 PM. Reason: Removed sexual needless reference
The first time I heard of RCM and ABRSM was about 4 years ago when I stated hanging out at the ABF. I had no idea there were levels and tests people took for scales and arpeggios for example. In fact ABF was the reason I went back to school instead of after retirement as I initially planned. There was so much to learn but my time is very restricted. I told my director about all the holes in my education and that I wanted to start from the beginning after reading about the appropriate way of learning here at ABF. So I started at RCM level 3 and patiently studied for a year. Much of the material was just too easy and I was sight reading everything. There was and still is a lot of basics to improve upon but after a year of that the teachers decided to teach me through the pieces I wanted to learn often very advanced intermixed with simpler pieces such as etudes as they probably figured out that is how I learn best and stay motivated to learn. That’s what I am doing now. My teacher is just getting me used to counting out loud when I play. Something’s I’ve never done before or used a metronome. She also introduced me to some etudes heavy on scalar passages to help me with some of the technical requirements of Busoni’s Chaconne. This is what I want not a debate if the pieces I’m learning are too advanced. We all learn in different ways it’s not necessarily a linear process.
I studied the piano first, and then began taking organ lessons at the same time. I found them to be similar but different— jethro would you agree? Differences: -Changes in volume are not controlled by the fingers on the organ but by a pedal - notes do not sustain on the organ after they are released so there is adjustments snd finger substitutions in order to create the effect of sustain such as what is needed for legato playing - pedal: pisnos have two-three pedals: damper, Sostenuto and soft. These are not present on the organ. There is one pedal to adjust volume and then an entire clef of notes played with the feet
I found it took learning and adaption to switch between the piano and organ. I studied both with a teacher, but my organ lessons did not last as many years.
I studied the piano first, and then began taking organ lessons at the same time. I found them to be similar but different— jethro would you agree? Differences: -Changes in volume are not controlled by the fingers on the organ but by a pedal - notes do not sustain on the organ after they are released so there is adjustments snd finger substitutions in order to create the effect of sustain such as what is needed for legato playing - pedal: pisnos have two-three pedals: damper, Sostenuto and soft. These are not present on the organ. There is one pedal to adjust volume and then an entire clef of notes played with the feet
I found it took learning and adaption to switch between the piano and organ. I studied both with a teacher, but my organ lessons did not last as many years.
Yes Dogperspn they are completely different instruments. You will learn keyboard spatial relationships with the organ which is probably the main thing you learn. The piano opened so many possibilities for an 11 year old kid with all the expressive possibilities. That’s what drew me to it instead of the organ which my parents still have to this day.
I studied the piano first, and then began taking organ lessons at the same time. I found them to be similar but different— jethro would you agree? Differences: -Changes in volume are not controlled by the fingers on the organ but by a pedal - notes do not sustain on the organ after they are released so there is adjustments snd finger substitutions in order to create the effect of sustain such as what is needed for legato playing - pedal: pisnos have two-three pedals: damper, Sostenuto and soft. These are not present on the organ. There is one pedal to adjust volume and then an entire clef of notes played with the feet
I found it took learning and adaption to switch between the piano and organ. I studied both with a teacher, but my organ lessons did not last as many years.
Yes Dogperspn they are completely different instruments. You will learn keyboard spatial relationships with the organ which is probably the main thing you learn. The piano opened so many possibilities for an 11 year old kid with all the expressive possibilities. That’s what drew me to it instead of the organ which my parents still have to this day.
Thanks., I didn’t want SouthPark to think the two instruments are more similar than they really are. My first love was the piano and that didn’t change. I only studied the organ long enough to survive playing for church services once a week…. And I haven’t played since I was a teenager. When I attend an organ professional concert, I am awed at the skill
Also the reason why you might find me in these threads is not to proselytize how to learn the piano. There are many methods we don’t need any more of that. How we learn interests me. I studied this stuff as an undergraduate. Then in graduate school did research on cognitive neuroscience and eventually motor control and motor learning and brain research. This stuff fascinates me. I have a clinical degree now and I treat movement disorders in my practice. So movement science is kind of my thing, but I hope I’m not offending teachers by some of what I write. I just want to share my perspective in this open forum. It just so happens that I have an interest in the piano but this applies to so much other activities that we do as well. I think though that a paradigm shift is needed in the application of piano teaching methods that could involve what is being discussed here.
The pieces I'm learning at a given time may be anything from a RCM level 3 to 8 as long as I'm not playing fast pieces. My teacher does assign pieces with Allegro on it but would slow it down to be playable. The last 2 pieces include a Clementi Sonatina in C & Beethoven Sonatina in G which are rated between RCM 3 to 5.
In my younger days I wasn't born as a natural musician. I had a plastic toy keyboard with 2 octaves that operated on batteries. I was only playing the baby songs on the sheet in the box. Then mom got me a music teacher & an upright for a month. Besides learning to find the middle-C, nothing made sense to me. After learning my first and probably the last song "Twinkle" I had a break for 3 decades before returning to piano playing. Mom was a teacher herself so my siblings would do everything by the book. We wouldn't touch a piano until after a lesson in case we did something wrong. Today there is a lot of self-learning and downloading sheet music I wouldn't do at age 5.
2 common problems mentioned by piano teachers include sight reading & playing hands together. The 1 thing I find that help me improve my playing more than anything else is ear training. When we're reading music, we're not reading a foreign language. There is a lot of info we absorb just by looking at the sheet. We know the beat, the key it's in and the approx. speed by the tempo marking. With good ear training, we can anticipate where the music is going so we're not reading every note or every other note. If you know how a piece is supposed to sound, getting the 2 hands to play at sync is less of an issue.
