Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum FAQ - Tuner-Technicians Forum What is "Attack"?

No, this thread doesn't belong in the Coffee Room.
Just another one of my periodic confessional queries about the meaning of a term understood apparently by everyone but me!

Something about playing pianos or how a piano plays, I gather...

Ariel

Ariel,

It's what I have to do to take on a particularly difficult piece. It's at time like this when I'm beating out a rhythm, or playing particularly loud beating out that rhythm, that my husband exits to his shop. Not really, but it plays good for the forum.

Actually, I find that with certain pieces of music where it requires that my "attack" on the music requires a certain kind of, or a quick response from, the piano, some pianos can deliver, and some can't. The fact that it's my playing certainly has nothing to do with it.

Honestly, someone else can explain it much better.

In discussions of piano sound, I've heard the *beginning* of the sound referred to as the attack.

The sound that a musical instrument makes can be divided into three parts: The attack is the initial sound produced - in the piano it is the sound first hear from the string(s) plus the "percussive" of the hammer hit. In an accordian, for example, the attack is slow as air pressure increases until the full tone (the second part often called the fundamental) becomes steady.

The other end is the "decay" - the sound made as the sound tapers off. In a piano the decay is rather long (if the damper pedal is depressed). In say a trumpet, it it rather short.

Yeah, I think I finally get it.

Attack, like “shock and awe” which is all over quickly followed by

Decay, like a few dead soldiers a week from sniping until all the killing stops.

Yeah, I get it.
:rolleyes:

David Burton writes: Only what comes between Attack and Decay? Taps?

Ariel

Sigh... and Ariel thought this thread doesn't belong in the Coffee Room.

It's attack, sustain, and decay.

Steve told you the truth Ariel

This is referred to as the "Sound Envelope"

Attack - initial sound produced, in a piano, this is the initial contact between hammer and string

Sustain - the actual souding of the note, as long as that may be.

Decay - the note trailing off.

All three of these are different ways to measure things, and describe different parts of the sound. When speaking of voicing, we're typically talking about the attack of the note, or the burst of sound that you first here.
Sustain comes into play when you're trying to really listen to the singing quality of a note. Play a note, and keep the key depressed, how long can you continue to hear it? How is the sustain in different parts of the piano?
How quickly does the note decay once it begins to?
All of these things can help you to describe what you're hearing in a piano, and when in the life of that note, you're hearing it.

hope that helps a bit

Steve and KlavierBauer isn't entirely correct;
In the general meaning of a sound envelope:

- Attack is the time the sound takes till it reaches it's full volume.
- Decay is how fast the sound decays with a note pressed.
- Sustain(level) - in the general music world, it actually means the volume level that an instrument keeps while the note is played. From what I gathered from piano dealers, they usually mean decay when they talk about sustain.
- Release, the time it takes for the sound to trail off, after a note got released.

So, a piano has a short attack, long decay, basically no sustain level (since a played note eventually becomes silent), and a short release (although my 80 year old piano seems to have a longer one )

a pan flute also has a short attack, a short decay, a slightly less sustain level than full volume, and a short release (can of course change depending on how it's played)

a violin has a longer attack (unless it's pizzicato), full sustain level, no decay, no release.

I hope that helps.

If you define attack only as time for a sound to reach it's full volume, then strictly speaking the piano has no attack, only decay. While this is how attack is defined in the world of synthesis, in the acoustic instrument world it is commonly used used to mean the broad transient response of an instrument when a note is first sounded. On the piano the transient includes all of the frequency transients as well as an initial rapid decay that is essentially an amplitude transient. If you look at a plot of amplitude over time you will see an initial decay that has a high rate (~ 8dB/sec) and brief duration, followed by a second decay that has a lower rate (~ 2dB/sec) and is much longer in duration. The first decay along with the frequency transients are typically called the "attack". Even though the piano does not sustain, it is common to refer to the second decay as the "sustain". This makes sense to me because the second rate is low enough (or should be) that it gives the illusion that the piano is sustaining when it really isn't.

Sustain and attack, then, are two defining characterstics of piano tone. There is a third, which is the duration of the attack. Some pianos have a shorter initial decay, causing the amplitude to drop relatively little before the second decay rate kicks in. Other pianos have a longer initial decay, allowing the amplitude to drop more before the second decay rate kicks in. The first piano might sound more "bell" like to our ears, while the second will have a crisper, more distinct attack. Of course there are other defining characteristics, including the filter characteristics of the bridge/soundboard assembly, the vibration characteristics of the strings, and the physical characteristics of the hammers. These get rather complex in a hurry.

Here is a link to a picture of the amplitude envelope as measured with an oscilloscope. As you can see, there is no rise in amplitude, the sound essentially starts at it's maximum amplitude and decays from there. You can also see the two decay rates.

http://www.speech.kth.se/music/5_lectures/weinreic/motion.html

Ryan

thanks for the clarification Pete and Ryan.
I guess I assumed we were talkig about the sound envelope as it pertains to pianos.
The term sustain is pretty much used universally in the piano world to describe this second decay rate. To the ear it does sustsain, but is more a measurement of time than of volume. People are listening to how long it take a piano note to decay, and the term for this in the piano world is sustain (since to our ears, that's what it's doing ... fighting the tendancy to decay).

Anyway, thanks for the clarification on the REAL sound envelope!

I was suspecting that the terminoligy would be different when talking about pianos. Thanks for the info.
I'd like to add though, that from a technical standpoint, the attack of a piano isn't exactly 0.
I measured an attack rate of ~5ms on a middle C piano key (forget exactly which one).
Just because the hammer is hitting the string doesn't mean, the sound is there right away, it has to develop in the pianobody. Plus, the hardness of the hammer plays a little role also.
Technically we'er talking milliseconds, but musically speaking I agree, that a piano has 0 attack :b:

Pete, you're right, there actually is a rise in amplitude. I didn't know what the number was, but I assumed it was small enough that it was safe to ignore Interestingly, while I was doing some experiments with synthesis I found that the ear can hear differences in attack times even in the sub-10ms range.

Ryan

There is always an attack. Even so-called square waves exist no more than in theory. Usually there is some overshoot, as well, since it takes more energy to start something moving than to keep it moving. That's all part of the attack.

This overshoot also increases the pitch a bit, too, since the tension is higher. This was one of the things that bothered me about Harry Partch's music. His kitharas were strung at such low tension that the pitch dropped off considerably after they were plucked, certainly more than the comma between a pure and equal-tempered fifth. That defeated the purpose of his advocacy of perfect intervals, as fas as I was concerned.

Still, different people hear things in different ways. I have two friends who have hyper-acute hearing sensitivity. Some things they hear are apparent once they are pointed out, so I have to believe that they hear the things that are not so apparent. (One is a world-famous maker of electric basses, the other is a trumpeter that Wynton Marsalis feels that he learned a lot from.)

an analog square wave created by a transistor gate actually doesn't have any attack time or overshoot, since as soon as the gate opens, electricity is flowing.
The overshoot happens in the digital world, when trying to simulate a square wave with a sum of sine waves, in order to avoid aliasing.

That's not actually true. There is always some time needed to get from zero voltage to whatever, whether the gate is digital or analog. You just need very sensitive instruments to measure it.

I'm not 100% sure, so I'll stop arguing
but then we're talking nanoseconds. I can't count that fast anymore

Don't mind me, I was a math student in college until I decided to do something useful. Which reminds me of a story.

A researcher pins a $100 bill on the wall, and tells a mathematician, a physicist, and an engineer that they can have the money if they can cross the room to get it. They just have to follow this one rule. When they have walked half the distance to the wall, they have to stop and wait for a second. The mathematician thinks about this and walks away. The physicist walks halfway across the room, waits a second, then walks half the remaining distance and thinks about it, and walks away. The engineer walks halfway across the room, waits a second, walks half the remaining distance and waits a second, walks half the remaining distance and waits a second, walks half the remaining distance and waits a second, walks half the remaining distance and waits a second, then walks half the remaining distance and thinks, "That's close enough!" grabs the $100 bill and walks away.

ok, you want jokes?

A doctor, a civil engineer, and a computer scientist were arguing about what was the oldest profession in the world. The doctor remarked "Well, in the Bible it says that God created Eve from a rib taken from Adam. This clearly required surgery so I can rightly claim that mine is the oldest profession in the world." The civil engineer interrupted and said "But even earlier in the book of Genesis, it states that God created the order of the heavens and the earth from out of the chaos. This was the first and certainly the most spectacular application of civil engineering. Therefore, friend doctor, you are wrong; mine is the oldest profession in the world." The computer scientist leaned back in his chair, smiled, and said confidently, "Ah, but who do you think created the chaos?"