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I have been looking for a used piano for the past 4 months. I looked at a store who had taken back loaners (Yamaha)from a college. The salesman states these are new pianos because they come with a 10 year warranty. They were used at the college for a year. Price for a new U1 Satin Ebony is $8299, price for the college new one is $7295. I'm wondering if these would really be viewed as used and not new. I'm not seeing their point in that they are new because they really were used for a year. Thanks.

Not new to me! Did you look at the wear and tear on the hammers? How does the case look?

You will see on this site that rentals and school pianos are understood to take some of the worst beating, and are considered maybe some of the 'most' used of the used's. Not the least new by a long shot in my book!

I also understand that this is a grey area for dealers, and that they are allowed to rent and then sell the warranty as new (which is good for you, but as someone said to me recently, almost all of what goes wrong on a piano is not covered by warranty....), but I would have a tech look closely at them and treat it as you would a used purchase any other place.

Not sure that the price is spectacular. Check Piano Buyer!

Best,

LVP

It all depends on how one defines "new" and "used." Under one definition, a piano that has never been titled to a buyer is new, no matter what has happened to it in the interim. If a 10 year warranty is a new piano warranty, then it seems that the seller is defining the piano as a new one.

Under another definition, a piano is "used" if someone has been intensively playing it for a period of time outside of the showroom. Under this definition, a piano that has had the heck beat out of in in a college for a year would be used.

It is probably not profitable in terms of time and effort to argue about this with the salesperson; you and the salesperson might well be defining the terms differently. You might want just to think about this in terms of things like: do you like the piano? How worn out do the hammers look? Is it a fair price for a piano that you would consider to be a used piano? The warranty is not the main issue here, at least for me: the issue would be how worn out the piano is, and how it was treated when it was at the school. Warranties do not cover wearing out. It seems that one of the main risks with the piano would be that it would need refurbishing at an earlier point in time in the future because of the heavy use it received during the year it was at a college.


Anyway, just some thoughts.

(Originally posted simultaneously with lvp's post above. Sorry about the repetition of that post.)

The law (UCC Code) sys that an item is new until it is sold the 1st time. Therefore pianos lent to schools for one year are "legally new", and can be sold with a new warranty.

I believe the code also says that a salesperson my not omit a material fact in an item's history. Use in a loan program certainly qualifies as a material fact.

This dealer seems to be honest in providing a truthful description and a significant price reduction.

Some college abuse loaned pianos while others do not. An independent tech can advise you.

For me that is not new. Have you ever seen how pianos are treated in college. I was a music major and I saw how pianos were treated in school. I would be careful buying a piano that was a college loaner. With that said it is also possible that they were treated well. Depends on the care, which should be visible (hammers, case, etc.).

Thanks for the info and thoughts! It's helpful to have others chime in with their experience. While legally they are new, they are "used". They did look like they are in good shape. I looked at the hammers on the new vs college vs 1992 u1's bought from a piano studio and the college looked very good to my untrained eye. I did not see any issues. I also took his comment with a grain of salt that they were used only in a professor's office and used for composing only. I also got the spiel about plastic parts in Kawai's. (no comment needed on that last comment -- I've read the posts on this.) Yes, all in all, I think they were fair in their representation of the piano. Also, where can I find serial numbers for Yamaha's newer than '04? The Yamaha site only lists to '04 that I can see. I want to verify what year the college was built. Thanks!

If you must buy from dealer who is clearly not being square with you (and I would think twice, personally), have the piano inspected first as if it were a used piano.

Did I miss something? Wasn't this dealership open and honest?

Common sense applies.

Something is "used" if someone has used it. I can accept that a bit of tinkling in a showroom does not materially use up a piano, but lending it to a school for a year most certainly does.

Ignore the dealer weasel words drivel that you have heard from the seller and on this forum and regard the piano as well used for a year. It is second hand and needs a serious discount to take account of that.

The law in the US is obviously different from that in Europe. Slamming a dealer who seems to have been forthcoming is not justified.

Steve - it is weasel words to refer to the law.

If a piano has been used in a school for a year IT IS NOT NEW whatever you or the law says.

No one has slammed the dealer. He has disclosed the main facts. However, the OP asked if it is really used or new. The common sense answer, despite what deluded trade "experts" may say, is that it is obviously used.

There are times where common sense takes precedence over the law. This is one of those times.

"A nice used piano that can come with the same warranty as a new one."

Easy peasy!

I wonder how many profs the college has that compose in their office though? I've heard that one in the past. Maybe it was the same prof at the same school?

If you are interested in that piano, and you cannot justify the price, you could always make an offer!

It might be a very good piano and already broken in.

Dalkin, if in a practice room - how much practice goes on there that you are referencing?

When I was IU (Indiana) each and every practice room was occupied every day all day. You had to sing up for times and "fight" for them. So at that school there was constant practicing primarily by voice & piano students. But at other schools practice rooms may not be used as much.

The school loan programs have been around for over 25 years across the nation. Most are supported by either Yamaha or Kawai. The distributor absorbes the first year flooring. The dealer sponsor supervised the load in and at the end of the year has a on-site sale. Units not sold go back to the dealer sponsor and onto his flooring accounts. As the pianos have never been sold, both Yamaha and Kawai honor the full warranty just as a "new" piano.

This has all been described many times. Dealers are strongly encouraged to identify the school loan instruments and to significantly discount them. Most dealers that I know of do this.

Most uprights to in fact end up in practice rooms and do get a lot of wear. Some uprights and most small and medium grands go into locked professor's teaching studios (even some vocal studios) and get special technical attention and often just a few dozen hours of play. Most of the bigger grands go into locked recital studios and stages where they are nearly always supervised.

With the proper disclosures and proper technical preparation and appropriate discounts, some school loan pianos can be exceptional bargains. Many professionals recognize school loan pianos as a benifit without the akward break-in periods and multiple tunings that raw new pianos go through to become stable.

The original post described a dealer that identified the instruments as "school loan" and that they would come with new factory warranties. This was true. How much the discount should be will be determined by the local market, the seller, and the buyer. How much wear and what condition should be determined by the buyer's technician.

In this instance, and from what the original poster described, nobody was trying to scam anybody.

The questions was, How does one determine if a piano is new or used?

If it has been 'used' for a year, it is 'used'.

I would not expect a car that had been used for a year to be sold as a new car whether it had been loaned to someone or not.

Of course it still may be a good piano and a good deal, I don't know. It's just used and not new by any logical definition.

A "used" car does not come with a factory warranty. A "demonstrator" (driven by staff and never registered) car does.

Most piano factory warranties are for the original purchaser only (non-transferrable). School Loan "demo" pianos have been used some, but do come with the original factory warranty. That is the distinction here. Actuall, and in this case, the School Loan piano is new warranty wise.

Roger and everyone else,

Does a used piano come with a new piano warranty? Only Kawai's warranty is transferable, but you would still have the "use" time taken from when the piano was first sold. Some have tarred dealers and industry pros for being weasly and talking lawyer talk. Well the fact remains that a warranty is an important feature of a new piano. I know this from personal experience in that I've had a string replaced on my piano under warranty. Others on this forum have jad entire pianos replaced under warranty. It does no one any good to dismiss warranties as meaningless because what usually goes wrong is due to wear. The fact remains one reason people buy new pianos is for the warranty.

In this case the OP has the opportunity to purchase a piano with a new piano warranty at a significant discount from the new piano price. Many have suggested that the OP have a technician evaluate the piano and I feel that's great advice. What I haven't seen is anyone suggesting whether the discounted price is a good value. So I'll ask straight out (because I don't know) is $7295 a good price for a satin ebony U1 that's been loaned to a school? Is this dealer really discounting the piano an additional $1000 for spending a year at a school? What have U1s been selling for lately?

In my opinion, the piano is definitely new if there are absolutely NO string grooves in the hammers AND they've NEVER been filed, the packing material is still with the piano, etc.... Even if the piano has gotten very brief minor use (specifically by the technician who's tuning, voicing and regulating it) I would still consider it new. Once the string grooves go deeper than about 0.01mm or so (before the hammers' first filing), then I may consider it used, and if you can actually SEE (and/or feel) the grooves, it's definitely used, I think.

Warranty and new/used are completely different issues. New piano warranties generally protect against catastrophic failure, not against degradation of the piano's capabilities that may occur with heavy playing, particularly in a practice room situation.

The new/used issue is quite simple. The piano industry has seen fit to apply a 'new' warranty to 'used' pianos. The level of use may range from a bit of play in a showroom to a year or more of heavy use away from the showroom. That use may have involved frequent moves. The new warranty doesn't make these pianos new. If a piano has been trucked away to locations other than the showroom, the dealer should reveal that and the customer should know about it. Customers also have a right to know the actual date of manufacture and where the piano may have been before it arrived in the particular dealer's showroom.

Turandot,
I agree that a full disclosure of a piano's use to the buyer is only fair. Instruments that have seen any kind of use outside the dealership should be identified to a customer and should be meaningfully discounted. Every sales document from every dealership I have ever worked at had a place for the seller to indicate "new" or "Used" or "Demo" or "School Loan" on the face of the document. Woe to a seller who certifies "new" on a document to be proven to have misrepresented. This would be civily actionable.

You wrote, "The piano industry has seen fit to apply a 'new' warranty to 'used' pianos." To my knowledge it is only Yamaha and Kawai that make a dispensation for 1-2 year old School Loan pianos. I know of no other companies sponsoring this type of activity. I know of no manufacturer who condones or supports a policy of knowingly supporting warranties on used pianos. An indictment of the whole industry is a little broad.

You seemed to hint at the narrowest of interpretations of "used" of an unboxed instrument on the dealer's showroom to be played by prospective buyers. Surely, you wouldn't classify these as "used"?

Retailers rarely are supplied with information from the manufacturer of the actual date of manufacture (occasionally one finds a dated production stamp on an action). It is not uncommon for finished and boxed goods to languish in factory holding areas for months, then again to languish for months in a distributor's warehouse, then again at a retailers warehouse. The only date a retailer has to work with is the date the instrument comes into his inventory possession. Industry serial number books (Pierce Atlas) are always a few years behind even with the newest edition. There are not model years distinctions like cars.

88 key,
Many manufacturers utilize vorsetzers or "pounders" that play several hundred/thousand keystrokes on each key before final tunings and voicings. Many new pianos come out of the box with slight groves on the strings. Often hammers are filed (shaped) during final voicing at the manufacturer and/or at the dealer.