Piano World Home Page Forums General Discussions 9/11 - - Never Forget Fahrenheit 9/11

Michael Moore does not make "documentaries"...he makes "Crockumentaries", as does Oliver Stone.

'Interesting discussion ... sort of. Osama Bin Laden and Sheik Kalleid Mohammad debunked the "truther" conspiracy theories, but yet they go on and on ad nauseium.

I don't believe the WTC buildings were brought down by explosives. I say this because I read the following 12-page document, written by demolition experts:

"A Critical Analysis of the Collapse of WTC Towers 1, 2 and 7 from an Explosives and Conventional Demolition Industry Viewpoint"

http://www.implosionworld.com/Article-WTC%20STUDY%208-06%20w%20clarif%20as%20of%209-8-06%20.pdf

I can't honestly believe that so many Americans would subscribe to the notion that their own government orcehstrated 9/11. Come on. Fundamentalist Islam is your problem...not the government. Every American I meet in NZ is an apologist for their "being American". I've never seen a nation of people so ashamed of their own existence. I'm glad one of my rellies (relatives) wasn't killed during 9/11. I'd be baying for blood. Micheal Moore is an idiot. He's a lefty, pseudo intellectual, idealistic twit. I wouldn't trust him off the end of my boot.

Evil pervails only when good men do nothing.

Interesting thread. My take (based on discussion with actual CIA members).

1 Michael Moore is as "politically correct" as everyone else on the "payroll"

2 Oklahoma WTC bombing was a fix. McVeigh was set up and though was "culpable", he did not bring the building down. The expert report stated that he would have done no more than "blown out a few windows. Experts claimed it was a professional demolition job and explosives were placed at the struts.

3 Who was behind the WTC bombing? It seems that though McVeigh was protesting "medical injuries" of gulf veterans (veterans who became sick or died as a result of "medications" for their service in Iraq), he had formed some associations with Islamic extremists. It is clear that Clinton was briefed.

4 Some of those behind Oklahoma were involved with 911.

5 It is likely that 911 was enabled by cooperation of Mossad, US government and its security service. But, with one important point - the attack was carried out by Islamic extremists.

6 Were Clinton and Bush aware? Dates - probably not. It was going to happen - without a shadow of a doubt.

7 What about Bin Laden? He is not wanted for the 911 attack, but "if" he was caught it sure would make the agenda. I don't have any evidence, but I believe he is already dead and possibly died before 911.

8 How did the wheels fall off? As with all crooks, the outcomes were miscalculated. There was no reason for any Islamic to use the date 9/11. It has absolute significance to anyone in the US and therefore was the idea of US backers. The marketing plan backfired when 300 fire-fighters were killed with the building collapse.

9 Iraq was all part of the plan in a attempt to violently stamp out "anti west" Islamic fundamentalism (post Iranian Ayatollah), but not the lid is off a disastrous situation, where something very nasty may well happen. This nasty thing will make 911 like a mild scratch. I pray it does not happen.

10 Rather than looking inward as a result of 911, American has sought solace in the blame game, ignoring the huge injustice that should be directly attributed to its own callous administrations.

11. There are many good people in America. God needs them to be given a forum to take things away from the current path. Obama predictably has done nothing to stop the progression.

Yeah, that's the whole story of conspiracy theorists.

"I don't have any evidence, but ..."

It's always the same.

I can think of *at least* 10 documentaries proving government involvement of 9/11. I can link them if you like. Some scientists that have spoken out are Dr Stephen Jones David Ray Griffin as well as the architects of the twin towers. Five of the commission's members also testified saying 9/11 was a fraud. I could go on and on. The media loves to smear "9/11 truthers" but the reality is, the facts and truth are on our side.

Wow. Is any of them actual have any real facts?

I can think of one documentary that proves that Jesus was created by elites who really believed in astrology.

Another one that proves Jews run the entire world.

Are these also true?

Yes.

-The senior counsel to the 9/11 Commission – John Farmer – says that the government agreed not to tell the truth about 9/11 (6 of the 9 commission members also spoke out) Also published a book about it.

-Jet fuel does not burn hot enough to melt though steel, let alone pulverize steel and bring all three towers down at near free-fall speed into their own footprint (building 7 wasn't even hit by a plane)

-Over 1000 architects and engineers signed a petition for a new investigation based upon physical evidence and analysis completely inconsistent with the official story

-Molten metal under both towers weeks after the collapses. This is not scientifically possible with only jet fuel. See Stephen E. Jones' work - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezIU6ZxYU3A

These are just a few. If you do your research you will realize that there is no possible way the governments account of 9/11 is factual.

Wow. Wow. Wow. So much fallacious thinking, so little time.
Yeah. John Farmer published a book that basically told how the Bush administration tried to cover up it's inadequacies. Oh wow. Politicians trying to save their butts! It's a first for politics.

John Farmer called the 9/11 commission "accurate and true" in his book. While the advertisements claim otherwise, the book spends most of it's time defending the 9/11 commission.Wow. I don't know where to begin.

Building 7's debris field was not well contained within the footprint. It fell asymmetrical and was leaning enough to damage the adjacent Verizon and Manhattan Community College buildings when it fell.

Molten metal?


This was very well demonstrated with the tanker crash on April 29, 2007 in Oakland, California. The 8,600 gallons of gasoline on fire weakened a bridge and the entire I-Beam steel structure collapsed in a matter of minutes. And it not only collapsed, the weakened I-Beams were crushed like clay.

Real world proof that not only is it not required for metal to be molten for a structure to collapse, but also that the weakened metal can be deformed very easily.Over 1000 piano teachers think that Bach invented ET tuning that we used today.

I think the group sums itself up with this one.



Let's see.

Professor Jones finds trace chemicals that have already been discovered by other WTC dust surveys. Unlike the other, sane people, instead of concluding that these things are expected in a collapse of a skyscraper at levels expected for such a collapse, he instead believes these are the result of thermite.

Right.

I gotcha.

Steven Jones is a prof of physics, not of chemistry. Most of his expertise is on the atomic level, not the level you'd need for a WTC collapse.

Another expert speaking outside his expertises making wild claims. I guess that sums up the entire movement in one sentence.The only thing I see is that conspiracy theorists turn a blind eye to anything that doesn't fit nicely into their conspiracy, so relying on them will only make a person disinformed.

John Farmer - "at some level of the government, at some point in time…there was an agreement not to tell the truth about what happened." - http://www.infowars.com/911-commission-counsel-government-agreed-to-lie-about-911/

Also the quote from the architects and engineers was from 2007... It goes on to say "There is however a growing body of very solid evidence regarding these "collapses" that has emerged in the last couple of years
gaining ground even in the mainstream media. This new evidence casts grave doubt upon the theories of the 9/11 building collapse
"experts" as well as the official reports by the 9/11 Commission, FEMA, and NIST." Comparing Architects and Engineers that have studied the WTC collapse with piano teachers is fallacious.

Nano-thermite - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nGS9uNd1Go (4:40)

Underwriter laboratories did their own tests on steel beams and found that the towers had to have explosives to fall the way they did.

Do you realize multiple buildings throughout history have burned hotter and longer than the WTC but have not collapsed? Besides, WTC 3, 4, 5, and 6 withstood far more damage than 7, yet the bottom halfs of them were still standing. Building 7 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEuJimaumW4

Comparing a bridge to a building is illogical. The pancake theory of how the building collapsed has already been debunked.

Molten metal under the towers 6 weeks after collapse? Impossible with jet fuel and small office fires.

Do you realize governments throughout history have staged terror attacks to get agendas across? Gulf of Tonkin, Hitler and his Reichstag, Oklahoma city bombing (came out the FBI made the bomb and trained the driver), Operation Northwoods are just a few. The US government most definitely has the capability.

Again, Farmer defends the 9/11 report.That makes me laugh even more.

The full statement is that they are untrained and non-experts, but they are still willing to go on to conclude that the evidence is sound. That still is not a vote of confidence. AE911 not only includes people who are architects and engineers, but those people who are students and workers for architects and engineers.

Out of the 1000, there are only 284 are actual working architects or engineers.

So yes, I think it's quite fair to hold a piano teacher as accountable to the history of piano as I do architects, engineers and their secretaries to chemistry. In fact, I hold piano teachers MORE accountable to the history of the piano than I do to architects and the people who work for them to chemistry.

Wow, another Steven E Jones link. Well, It's not him, but it's his co-author.

I think I already covered why I think it's total bupkis.

Underwriter laboratories did do tests on the steel beams, but did NOT conclude explosives were the the only way they could fall.

That conclusion was reached by Kevin Ryan, who was employed outside of UL.

Again, another conspiracy that ignores important evidence that disproves their conspiracy.

Rather than going through each building listed, maybe I should just state the obvious.

There has been NO fire in any skyscraper that has been allowed to burn uncontrollably like 9/11. Period. Every one except the WTC had a functioning fire suppression system and real firefighters working directly on the fire.

Comparing a controlled fire with an uncontrolled fire, without taking in account that the fire was controlled, will only lead to faulty conclusions.

Comparing the results of a fuel fire on two steel structures is totally illogical!

It might be a challenge for you, but I find comparing two structures which share similar properties under similar conditions very useful.

Before you call me on it. Since the various skyscraper fires were not under similar conditions as the WTC, this is not a contradiction to what I've said before.
It is not the NIST official explanation.

I would like to point out the majority of the architects who originally studied the collapse came with the pancake conclusion. By dismissing the pancake claim, you are doing what you accused me of, dismissing architects which studied the collapse.Not impossible with a fire that burned uncontrollably for 19 days over 17 acres. The fires weren't put out for 2 months, and could possibly have pockets that were high enough to melt some metals.



Let me also mention that most of the molten steal reports were not examined by experts, and it's easy for non-experts to confuse oxidized weaken steal with molten steel.

The 11 people rescued from the rubble of the WTC is proof enough that there was not a significant flow of molten metal. When people get hit with molten metal, they don't give a thumbs up like Arnold in Terminator 2, they pretty much get burned to death.

Especially if you consider the amount of molten metal Steve Jones claims to have been falling on them.Do you realize that governments also get attacked legitimately a lot more often they they stage one.One crazy conspiracy theory at a time, dude.

Next we'll be talking about chem trails poisoning us and how Jesus visited the Mayas. Oh wait, Steve E Jones is an expert on those things too!

It's kind of weird how these conspiracy theorists tend to be linked to many different unrelated theories. It's almost like there are just some people that are predisposed to them.

appleman, The Internet only makes this worse. In the past, many people believed everything they saw on television. Now they get 100x more from the net, little of it checked for accuracy. (It need only be checked for allure.)

If people believe that magic creams can eliminate wrinkles, that a little pill will improve "mental energy" or take off 30 pounds, that a "magic putty" can fix leaking pipes, then they're primed to believe any huckster. The net is rife with them. (Stupid people are everywhere. Avoid them.)

I think the firefighters themselves are the experts when it comes to whether structural steel buildings collapse at free-fall speeds simply because of fire.
They know that it is a load of Bravo Sierra.

http://firefightersfor911truth.org/

I've been exposed the a lot of these websites recently, but you've gotta respect this one. When other sites try to hid illogical thinking, this one goes all out crazy right from the start.

The claim that everyone is either incompetent or part of a secret society whose oaths are preventing them from finding the truth is probably my favorite part.

I've tried to go through their PDF, but it's huge and filled with so many blatant falsehoods and half-truths it's hard to even go though the entire thing.

A lot of it hinges on Steve Jones again. AGAIN. Does that man get around a lot or what?

Dr. Jeff King. King is only has a BS in EE and Biology, only went to MIT for math for 2 years, and is a family doctor by profession. Yet the firefighters identify him as "Dr. Jeff King MIT Structural Engineer". From now on, I am Dr. Appleman, former NASA engineer and empire of Earth.

Again, most of the argument on this website revolves around Mr. King, Mr. Jones and misquotes of various firefighters on the scene, as well as the old standby, "It happened before, so it's happening now".

I have yet to see and hard evidence disproving my claims. Laughing at me and saying things like "It might be hard for you to do this" are ad hominem attacks and distract from any civilized discussion.

Farmer’s contention is that the government agreed to create a phony official version of events to cover-up the real story behind 9/11. - http://joerobertson.com/newstome/security/john-farmers-book-the-ground-truth-the-story-behind-america%E2%80%99s-defense-on-911



So? Being a student or worker disqualifies you from being educated and examining evidence under the supervision of professionals? You said they are non-experts and then go on to say they are architects and engineers?

So? Your statement isn't even an argument or refutation of any kind.

No, you didn't disprove Jones' claims of thermite, or anybody's claim of thermite or nano-thermite yet. Name calling again doesn't help your case.



He was FIRED after he made that conclusion.



Like what? Jet fuel doesn't burn hot enough to cause the kind of structural collapse of the WTC and eject huge steel girders away from the building.

Scientists believed that before more evidence had come out. See - http://www.journalof911studies.com/...adeCenterBuildingsCompletelyCollapse.pdf

"Some metal" is a huge understatement. All quotes from eyewitnesses are consistent with literal molten metal or "rivers of flowing metal".



Popular Mechanics uses straw man arguments in most of their articles. See also - http://www.rense.com/general62/ppop.htm Besides, there was molten metal on top as well.

The melting temperature of steel is 1532 C, or 2790 F. Iron can only be melted in a specially designed blast furnace (where lots of extra oxygen is pumped into the furnace). Knowing this, please explain how the steel shown in the following videos can melt in open air fires.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx33GuVsUtE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_jiCyMkrRM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Nr1eK0sAsY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa7PN-8T2VY


Nobody got rescued out of the molten metal.

At least you admit governments stage terror. Governments getting ligitimately attacked doesn't disprove the fact that governments stage terror attacks though.

Your mixing lies with truth, thats dangerous territory and a bad tactic, your destroying your credibility, but since you brought these up, I'll deal with them. Your somehow trying to make a correlation between Stephen Jones (a scientist) with myth. Chem trails do exist and it's not a "conspiracy". Even the history channel did a report on this and the United States, the Chinese and Russian governments have all admitted that they are manipulating the weather.

It's not unrelated. I'm am proving to you that governments have the capability to stage false flag events (and they do) which is related to the discussion of 9/11 being an inside job. It's happened before (gulf of tonkin, operation northwoods, are a few in the United States). It has happened thoughout history.


Your using the word conspiracy as a kind of "throw around" word. A conspiracy is defined as - an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; plot, or a combination of persons for a secret, unlawful, or evil purpose.

Under this definition, yes there are many government conspiracies.


Suggested video/reading -

http://www.911truth.org/

http://911truth.org/article.php?story=20041221155307646

http://911scholars.org/

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/

http://stj911.org/

http://lawyersfor911truth.blogspot.com/

Of course no one should believe everything they see on the internet, I don't know how that would apply to me though. Nobody should believe anything they hear on the media without doing their own research.

The same goes for those who get all their news from the corporate-controlled media and have been programmed what to believe.

Farmer's story is that the government cannot protect you from terrorist attacks and it's lying to you that it can. It has little to nothing to do with 9/11 being a planned attack by the government.
You can be an expert at one thing without being an expert at everything. The few that are experts are experts of architecture, not demolitions or chemistry.

The ones that are not even professional architects, just people who work for them or students, should not be listed as an Architect against 9/11. That's an appeal to authority they do not deserve.

When you say that 1000 architects believe 9/11 was false, it should be 1000 real architects. If you wanted it to be 1000 smart people for 9/11 truth, I wouldn't have raised the objection.
Well, to prove your point about Steven E Jones, you link his co-author. That's basically supporting Steven E Jones by citing Steven E Jones. You're not allowed to do that!
Yes I did. I said everything in his samples are what you expect from a huge building falling down.

He jumps to the conclusion of thermite without examining what else it could have been.

He doesn't for example, take a real bit of thermite and burn it himself and examine the output. He doesn't take a sample of dust outside in a normal city outside of a welding shop like the one he tested from and see if there is any contamination. He doesn't explain why certain important pieces of thermite are not present in his sample.That still doesn't change the fact that he was not employed directly by UL.

Incorrect, as the truck fire I've posted about earlier in this thread, car fuel is enough to cause a structural collapse of a steel structure.

Do you have a source for this?

This is one of the most videoed and photoed event in history, have anything beyond the aluminum shot in the last one.

You accuse me of Ad hominum attacks and link to a page that starts by claiming Pop Mechanics is a CIA Front. O_O

The page you link to just sources Steve E Jones and Jeff King, and does no research on it's own.
The first video is after it's been dug up and can easily be explained by the popular mechanic's explanation.

Second video has been removed

Third video shows molten aluminum coming from the plane, which is consistent with other air plane crashes.

The fourth video compares buildings that are not the same as the WTC, making the comparison interesting, but useless.

There are rivers of molten metal and yet, 11 people can survive these "rivers". With all the metal in the WTC, it doesn't make sense that these people narrowly avoid all of them.

It is completely true that Steven E Jones believes in those things and has gone as far as put his name on them.

I am not making a correlation with a scientist and a myth. I am making a statement about a myth a scientist believes. I am saying that a scientist that has a history of jumping to strange conclusions should be taken with a grain of salt.
The chem trail theory is that planes are venting poison. It has no fact in reality and is easily explained by natural phenomenon.

Further reading:
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4037

Movie:
http://herebedragonsmovie.com/

As a Brit, the only thing I don't like about Michael Moore is his ability to be a little bit 'Hollywood' about his performances. Other than that, he should be considered an asset to patriotism. He constantly says he loves his country and hates the fact that the American people don't seem to stick up for themselves in given situations. That's admirable.. It's quite easy to dupe the population if you have the media on your side.

I personally think that anyone that thinks the 9/11 incident was a simply case of buildings falling down due to planes crashing in to them is more capable of being duped by the media and an unpatriotic American government (certainly at that time) than they are able to listen to the facts from experts in their fields.

Planes crash in to the twin towers and they fall down against all technical explanation. Bin Laden takes responsibility. America invades Iraq. Nuff said..

Google up operation northwoods and tell me if you see some resemblance to 9/11?