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#166129 05/20/08 10:53 AM
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Innominato wrote:
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"One last comment,complaining about Steinway prep may be somewhat justified but try prepping 3000 HAND MADE pianos a year as opposed to 300. Expect a compromise along the way."

So you get a compromised product by same or higher price than the European competition, as it is apparent that NOT all dealer performs the required prep or the problem would not exist in the first place.

Which confirms that Steinway NY - beautiful pianos as they are - are overpriced, because most clients get a compromised product for the price of a non compromised one, right?
No, that's wrong. You need to read the entirety of the posts, not just selective bits.

The Steinway dealers prep the pianos after they're sold. There's no compromise here. You get a great sounding piano.

Mary


Music should strike fire from the heart of man, and bring tears from the eyes of woman. -- Beethoven
#166130 05/20/08 11:24 AM
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It will be interesting to see what Steinway's new management, if there is a indeed a change, will do .
Training people.

In a German factory, the last men and women working on a piano are called "Konzertmeister".

These guys are considered the most valuable employees of all.

But they are also the most difficult to produce - and then to keep.

It takes years of specialized training and requires great talent to excel in this position.

The moment they show up on the landscape, they often get offers and opportunities by many others.

Find me one - and he's hired on the spot.....

[Remember: the West Coast is beautiful, mountains & sea: all in front of you, girls on the beach, hiking, skiing - we got it all!]

Norbert laugh


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#166131 05/20/08 11:30 AM
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Just because sales are declining, doesn't mean the maker has a disaster on their hands. They will have to cut costs to make commensurate with new output level, or else take measures to recoup loss of sales in some way. We're presuming here from the prevailing notion on PW that more accessible information available to the consumer has broken the lock on the Steinway mystique - which I buy - and therefore better distribution of market share to more and different high end makers. Makes total sense to me. If you can be profitable as a company producing 250 instruments a year, with 300 million people in the US alone, surely you can sell 75 or so (and the rest to the rest of the world) no matter how far the market for such a luxury as a piano has fallen.

Perhaps another acceptable analogy is with computer makers - Apple vs Dell. Of course I don't consider the market share differences of Steinway vs European Small Production Manufacturer to be so great as Apple vs Dell, but the point is that Apple's increased market share in recent years is good for them and Dell's declining market share (kind of guessing here that Dell is losing SOME share to Apple) isn't catastrophic but may require a restructuring of production and labor force if it continues. Dell can still be profitable at lower production levels if those levels eventually stabilize and the company adjusts. But the idea that Apple isn't compatible with the rest of the computer world is OVER and that they are perhaps even better depending on what you're looking for in a computer is not impossible. (In fact, it's true! laugh )

Higher sales volume and cash flow certainly make fixed expenses and economies of scale easier to implement for companies with that higher volume and it protects them from small swings in production or demand. For example if you produce 250 year and drop 25 units one year that's a 10% decrease and hurts more than 25 units when you produce 2500/year (1% decrease)

And that's all I have to say about that.

#166132 05/20/08 12:08 PM
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The Apple vs Dell analogy doesn't work. Apple offers a unique value proposition in terms of innovation, industrial design and a really good, robust, operating system. It borders on being a lifestyle choice.

The rest of the Wintel world offers no differentiation. All of them run essentially the same hardware platforms, and all of them run the same operating system. If you ignore the differences in case/enclosure design at the user level you can't tell Dell apart from Samsung, Lenovo, HP, etc. Dell is losing market share because other manufacturers now equal or beat them in the management of manufacturing cost.

Apple is gaining market share at the expense of the Wintel manufacturers, but not enough to be considered a threat. At least not in the short term.

What might be a better analogy is to equate the high-end piano manufacturers to the performance and luxury car market.

#166133 05/20/08 12:50 PM
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The difference is that with those brands that do full prep at the factory are relatively consistant in their performance.

With Steinway the consistancy depends on the local dealer's technical staff.


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#166134 05/20/08 01:43 PM
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Originally posted by pianobroker:
Lets take a realistic scenario as most can just speculate as for what occurs in the real world. I've been down this road with this stereotype scenario more times than I can remember.

"We the First x Church of x have this 1930 Steinway B which we have had for near 80 years now, which we love the sound. The church pianist who praises the sound admittingly has relayed to us it probably needs a major overhaul. We can't afford to upkeep this piano anymore being in constant disrepair. Taking your restoration estimate in consideration with the members of the board,as much as we would love to keep this piano and fully remanufacture it as you have itemized in the contract, we don't have the available funds. After much consideration we feel that in the best interest of the church in the financial predictament that we are in, we are willing to accept this lesser quality piano as an even trade in that it needs no work at all. If we had the available funds at hand we would, no question have you restore the piano.

Nobody considers trading a Steinway core piano for a lesser piano unless their is a financial setback as for not having the $ for restroration.

"Reverand we can always get another Steinway grand when this one wears out"
laugh Upgrade doesnt apply period.
Obviously right on target. Not that anyone should have to say so, of course.

As was certainly obvious to most, the ludicrous statement that a customer can "upgrade" from a Steinway to an Estonia was a transparently silly marketing ploy.

When your family and friends enjoy magnificent memories of playing your top-tier Steinway for decades, and then, as a result of a sky-high number of hours of playing, you feel something must be done about the wear and tear, then you either have it rebuilt or buy a new piano of similar quality--and nothing, absolutely nothing, is going to be an upgrade.

I appreciate the sound of Fazioli and Bosie and etc. Yet we must get real: those pianos are, at the very most, peers of Steinway--not upgrades. Perhaps I should qualify that statement by adding that they are peers of newer Hamburg Steinways and quality vintage upgrades.

Admittedly, as everyone has pointed out a bazillion times on this forum, it seems the unionized builders in New York are bent on undoing the reputation of NY Steinway. I can understand how this must generate resentment in dealers, to be sure. Yet even the union cannot quite defeat the first-class Steinway design. If something is amisss with your new NY Steinway, you can raise a stink about it, and it will be made right. Be sure you do not wait five years before you complain loudly.
___________________________

As for those others who seem to be suggesting that rebuilding is a mistake or irrelevant or something, I certainly disagree there. Many advanced pianists covet rebuilt Steinways. Some rebuilders enjoy a great life because of this.

There is a rebuilder in Brentwood, California, whose work is so high-class that I have heard from maybe five or six of his competitors that he is the best rebuilder in the country.

He charges top dollar. He does things few rebuilders do, such as replacing the keys and the damper tray and etc. Many knowledgeable people are of the opinion that his rebuilds are not only much better than new NY Steinways, they are also at least the equal of new Hamburg Steinways.

The guy does not advertise. He has orders booked for years. If you want one of his rebuilds, you will pay top dollar and wait for years to get it--and people do.

There is also a rebuilder at Claremont McKenna College who is a kind of Steinway loyalist and insists upon genuine Steinway parts. He is also never going to be short on orders. He will be doing what he loves--happily rebuilding Steinways to magnificent perfection--for the rest of his life.

Some rebuilders are apparently doing something right out there.

#166135 05/20/08 02:24 PM
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Prospero....Now you're talking my turf and if you are refering to who I think you are refering to...he is in Pacific Palisades west of Brentwood with the initials JB ?.I know everybody and have seen everybodys work.....My invite still stands as for tour of the restoration factory/facility and showrooms.I gurantee you'll never see as many Steinways in one place hopefully they would meet your high standards & expectations. smile


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#166136 05/20/08 05:03 PM
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Originally posted by pianobroker:
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If a client is looking to purchase a rebuilt Steinway from a rebuilder, I can see them having other choices, but if they already own a vintage Steinway, I personally have never seen a client choose to purchase another piano for the price of a competent rebuild.
Me,either and I encounter this scenario on a daily basis.
Of course,there will be few exceptions based on various reasons, but as for the masses in this stereotype situation,it is isolated and in the minority. You have to realize this mindset of the prospective Steinway buyer extends way beyond the realms of the small minority of piano enthusiasts and pianists on this forum. The Steinway buyer for whatever reason they want a Steinway in reality is not gonna change for a long long time. Most don't even know or care about 1rst tier, secound tier etc (me either). Most persons in the real world think Larry Fine is one of the three stooges laugh Steinway is an American piano success story and it is a symbol of success to anyone that acquires one and they sound pretty good too.
When I look at the high end European manufacturers (of the utmost quality)in the marketplace, they are graveling for a miniscual slice of the pie left over .In my venue,one doesn't even know who represents what from month to month. When one high profile dealer handled all the high end European manufacturers eventually that concept crumbled in my venue in that each manufacturer acquired even less of the pie being in direct competition within the same establishment. Most realized it was beneficial to have a chosen dealer handling them exclusively. Having the "best piano unfortunately doesn't make you the winner" One last comment,complaining about Steinway prep may be somewhat justified but try prepping 3000 HAND MADE pianos a year as opposed to 300. Expect a compromise along the way.

From a credible source,There is gonna be a major change in management at N.Y. Steinway in the near future. Hopefully for the better
With all due respect Broker, I fail to see how any of the European high-end piano makers are grovelling for a bigger piece of the action in the US. The only grovelling I can see here is your begging a certain gasbag member who posts frequently of his preferred rebuilders to come and visit you. IMO, you should do that in a PM. It may not be grovelling, but it sure looks like you are, at a minimum, preening for attention.

I would ask you which of the high-end European brands you represent, which new European Steinway alternatives you would be able to show your client as an alternative to a partial rebuild? Short list, no? laugh

If you recall the situation that Ori's customer was confronted with, she had a partially rebuilt Steinway A that needed action work. Her original idea was to have the work done on that piano. In making that choice, she would have needed to have confidence that the work done would meet her expectations for the whole piano. Although Ori stated that the block and board work already done 10 years previously seemed better than average, I can hardly imagine that he would warrant that work in warranting whatever work she contracted for at his shop. So even if she followed through on that course of action, she would then have an old piano which had been rebuilt in different ways at different times by different rebuilders with a warranty that covered the latest round of work. She would not really know if this was the last thing this old piano would need in the foreseeable feature, or if any increased resale value of that old piano after the action work would cover even a portion of the expense she incurred in doing it. As you would well know, a fully rebuilt piano sold by the rebuilder who did the work can fetch a far greater price than a old rebuilt piano disposed of by a private owner.

Ori's customer opted for a new piano that satisfied her needs and wants without any necessary projection on her part of how the piano would play and sound after the work she contracted for was accomplished and the bill had been paid. As others have pointed out here(Bitwrangler for one), she made a rational decision, not the only rational decision, but a rational decision.

Ori stated:
Quote
I have seen many piano buyers, each having different preferences and priorities, and I have learned to respect them all.
Respecting differing opinions would add a lot more to the discourse here than ridiculing them because they are in conflict with the piano one owns or in conflict with the pianos that one sells.


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#166137 05/20/08 06:26 PM
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From a credible source,There is gonna be a major change in management at N.Y. Steinway in the near future. Hopefully for the better
They already made a Hamburg man top bananna. I would guess the 2 factories will continue their trend of conforming to each other.

#166138 05/20/08 10:39 PM
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Originally posted by Prospero:
As was certainly obvious to most, the ludicrous statement that a customer can "upgrade" from a Steinway to an Estonia was a transparently silly marketing ploy.

When your family and friends enjoy magnificent memories of playing your top-tier Steinway for decades, and then...
Ah, but what if your Steinway is *not* a *top-tier* Steinway, but one of those Tier 1C-barely-hanging-on-scraping-at-Tier-2 NY wannabes (Ed: Not ALL NY Steinways, just those at the bottom of the proverbial bell curve), that just missed the mark in all measurable respects? Or perhaps an older one, a lemon from the Dark Period?

And the Estonia you're "upgrading" to is not one of the East Bloc specials of the 1990's, or even of 2002, but one of the very newest, "top-tier" jewels of the Baltic corridor?

I know, I know, a remote possbility to be sure... which is why I don't accept the idea of "upgrading from a Steinway to an Estonia" as the *norm*, certainly. But from my own, fairly recent piano search, I've confirmed the plausibility of this proposition independently (Ed: at least in my own mind), and had considered the thought myself, before it was floated on the thread.

Prospero, I love your posts! I suppose I'm just nit-picking laugh

#166139 05/20/08 11:06 PM
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Since this "upgrading thing" keeps going on, there are a heck of a lot of Steinways out there you *could* upgrade to an Estonia 9' concert.

In fact, just about every model they make except perhaps their own D.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0ZZUhehnwY

Norbert help


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#166140 05/20/08 11:13 PM
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When is going from a Steinway to an Estonia an "upgrade"?

No need to consider used clunkers, just compare new instruments coming out of the Steinway (New York & Humburg) and Estonia (Talinn) factories. Here's my two cents:

Going from any new Steinway upright or Model S to any new Estonia grand, I'd consider that an "upgrade."

Going from any new Steinway upright or Model S or Model M to any new Estonia 6'3" or 9' grand, I'd consider that an "upgrade." (Going from S&S Model O to Estonia 6'3", that depends on the individual instruments.)

Going from any new Steinway upright or Model S/M/O/A to Estonia 9' grand, I'd consider that an "upgrade" as well. (Going from S&S Model B to Estonia 9', that depends on the individual instruments.)

Now... just for context, I'd say that there are many cases where I'd consider going from Steinway to Yamaha an "upgrade" as well (again, comparing only new instruments, no landfill clunkers). Examples:

S&S uprights, model S --> Yamaha GC1 or larger grands
(S&S model M --> Yamaha C3, depends on individual instruments)
S&S model M/O --> Yamaha S4/C5 or larger grands
(S&S model A --> Yamaha S4/C5, depends on individual instruments)
S&S model A --> Yamaha S6/C7 or larger grands
(S&S model B --> Yamaha S6/C7, depends on individual instruments)

See, it's not that hard to "upgrade" from S&S to something else. I can make many similar "upgrade" lists to/from many other pairs of brands too. laugh

#166141 05/20/08 11:18 PM
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Steinway to Yamaha?

Including the one S6 I played a while back at the Yamaha dealer in Edmonton, Alberta?

Let's get the daggers out.....

Norbert laugh


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#166142 05/21/08 12:15 AM
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Q: When is going from a Steinway to an Estonia an "upgrade"?

A: For me, it's when you start with a Steinway with evidence of poor fit & finish, sloppy workmanship, and overall mediocre sound, and move to the average Estonia coming off of the docks, whose fit & finish appear to be excellent. Not perfect, but a darn sight better than what's available at the typical Steinway showroom I've encountered recently.

As to the Estonia 9' I played, it was exceptional - better than all of the Ds I played except two: one was a "high-performance" rebuild, and the other was one of three new D's at Steinway Hall (and just the one).

So there it is. Apples to apples. Again, that was just *my* experience. YMMV.

#166143 05/21/08 12:45 AM
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Originally posted by Innominato:
so there is the real chance that I have never, or very seldom, listened to a NY Steinway even in a concert hall.
Hey Innominato - you crack me up!

It's fair to deduct that you have no first-hand experience of playing a NY Steinway nor owning a NY Steinway and yet you freely dispense your "opinions" that NY Steinways are lacking in prep and over-priced.

Did you not learn in school that stealing other people's ideas/opinions is called plagiarism? laugh You are perfectly free to dislike Steinway pianos if you form your opinion from your own experience. But come on!!!

This forum is HILARIOUS!!! Wonderful entertainment for FREE!!!

If Eliot Spitzer had discovered this forum instead of prostitution, he probably would still be the governor of NY now! laugh

#166144 05/21/08 12:49 AM
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Just to complete Norbert with some video/audio samples of an Estonia 9' probably not a lot of people have seen/heard yet:

http://www.estoniapiano.nl/pagina_Listen.html

schwammerl.

#166145 05/21/08 01:33 AM
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Schwammerl - thanks for the link. Lovely sounds. No wonder there are many Estonia fans on the forum. smile

Innominato - I can't blame you if you are turned off on a brand due to aggressive marketing/status-conscious people who just want to show off because it IS annoying. I gather from the forum that current Estonias are wonderful instruments but the shameless plugs by Norbert are turning me off on this brand!!! I understand he's a dealer but the whole rhetoric is getting old and is just plain boring.

Anyway, boys and girls, it's been fun, but I'm signing off this forum. I have a true appreciation for the people who offer their technical expertise and their personal experiences/stories with different pianos. A great time to be a piano fan as they are so many wonderful choices available. Ciao! smile

#166146 05/21/08 01:38 AM
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Fabulous recordings!

Norbert thumb


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#166147 05/21/08 03:00 AM
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Originally posted by Prospero:
...it seems the unionized builders in New York are bent on undoing the reputation of NY Steinway. I can understand how this must generate resentment in dealers, to be sure. Yet even the union cannot quite defeat the first-class Steinway design.
Yes. This must be it. Steinway quality will never be restored until all the evil, skilled union labor is replaced by minimum wage $7.15/hour temporary workers, or better yet with scads of $4-5/hr workers taken from the ranks of the 21 Million illegal apartheid laborers from Mexico and Central America who might find quality piano building a welcome break from working 10+ hour days in California's vegetable fields or Iowa's nightmarish Kosher abattoirs. :rolleyes:

Perhaps fellow New Yorker Sholom Rubashkin could teach Dana Messina how to forge social security cards, establish a company store to get workers into hock, set up shadow bookkeeping and color coded slush fund paychecks and construct hidden Anne Frank-style walls in preparation for potential ICE raids...Who needs totalitarian labor from China when we can innovate our manufacturing processes at home? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

#166148 05/21/08 03:05 AM
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thanks for the link. Lovely sounds. No wonder there are many Estonia fans on the forum.
Not many will have become an Estonia fan on this forum because of this link (samples) as this is from a Dutch website!
whether or not it has made a lot of Estonia fans in Europe, I would doubt it as the brand recognition of Estonia in Europe is quite low.

Quote
I can't blame you if you are turned off on a brand due to aggressive marketing/status-conscious people
Confident and conscious Estonia owners on this forum certainly, but Estonia agressive marketing???
As far as I know Estonia Pianos even doesn't have a marketing department let alone an agressive marketing policy.

And if so called 'plugs' by dealers on this forum are turning people off on this brand, what is the secret behind the success of Estonia in North America then?

schwammerl.

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