Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Yamaha AvantGrand a few facts

Add me to the list of AvantGrand buyers who have purchased (will shortly) the instrument as a replacement for a grand piano which I have neither the space nor money to get what I'd like/need. The N1 is what I'm going for and it plays better than any of the uprights I played, and with the added bonus of the silence being digital and never needing a tune. I think the N1 is a brilliant instrument particularly for those needing an instrument to develop technique for classical and jazz, or any music for that matter. Not sure what I fit on the 10 reasons list, but surely a grand replacement for technique building is a solid reason to buy the AvantGrand.

Zachary, welcome to the growing club. If it's not too impolite could you tell us what you paid or will pay?

Zach,

My company has gotten to know the N2 and the N3 quite well, but we have much less experience with the N1. Would you kindly comment on whether you compared the N1 and the N2 and, if so, why the superior sound and touch of the N2 weren't enough to tempt you to go for it instead of the N1.

For me, this is not just an academic question. We sell both models so your feedback would be of value to both me and my customers.

Thanks.

Irving, I would be happy to. The Yamaha dealer here just south of Nashville, Miller Piano Specialists http://www.millerps.com/ has the N3, N2, and N1 and a nice selection of U and P series uprights, as well as a nice selection of C series and CF grands. I was looking into going for a C5 or RX-5, but just can't spend that kind of money, and don't quite have the space. I looked at the C3 and even checked out the U3, but then played the N1 and felt that for my purposes, and for the sake of space, the N1 provides the most bang for buck.

As for the N1 vs the N2, I'm needing an instrument to develop technique, on a serious classical level. I started playing piano with the intention of playing at a Concert Pianist level (don't we all ) but I've been playing jazz the last few years, working on my Associates Degree and recently decided that to go back for Piano Performance and see where that leads me. I'm in a position to spend the time practicing, have a great support of wife, family, and friends, so I'm going for it. With that said, because the purchase of the N1 now is for a tool and not necessarily as a long term commitment like a nice grand piano, I felt the advantages of the TRS and better speaker system the N2 provided over the N1 wasn't enough to justify the cost difference. I'm basically looking for a grand piano action in a small package. The N1 effectively fulfills all of my requirements. The N2 is a really nice instrument, I will say, but the N1 is a really dynamite package.

Does this help Irving? BTW, I appreciate the discussions on the AvantGrands because I feel that as a practice tool, they offer a very real and adequate replacement to acoustics for building technique, particularly where space and money prohibits grand piano purchases.

I sent Irving a message through his store address. I had forgotten his name though knew he was the owner of the Yamaha dealership for NYC. I since located this thread (which was the reason I contacted his site to begin with).

I was wondering if Irving had any more scenarios to share with us ... and I was wondering if he had reason to pull an action from the N3 as I am curious to learn exactly how to proceed to accomplish that task. I had no problems pulling the action from my since traded in GranTouch, but the N3 seems a tad more involved. (I went back and reread some of the posts ... interesting.)

Jesus Christ, has this thread ever degenerated. Nice work, 85. Maybe he's avoiding your PMs because you are being a bit weird on this topic. I'd avoid you as well.

If you practiced as much as you whapped on about this, you'd BE Liszt by now, so why not go hammer at the OTHER keyboard for a while?

I just felt the need to channel Pogo for a tiny bit there.

Dave,

No problem that you forgot "Irving". It's probably just not as memorable as "Faust Harrison Pianos" - which you did remember.

As for more scenarios in which people favor the AvantGrand, I haven't been involved in sales lately so I wouldn't know - but we are accumulating a lot of new data. Sales of both N2's and U1SG's continue to be brisk.

Regarding the N3 action, I'll talk to our techs and get back to you - either here or in a PM.

I bought a N2 from Faust Harrison last year and it's fantastic. I live in nyc in a fairly small apartment. I didn't even have room to go with the N3. I go to the Juilliard at night program for amateurs and get to use their practice rooms. They are all Steinways that are usually pretty beat up. The class time piano is a lot better. I've rotated my practicing on all of these pianos for 1+ years and I think the N2 was one of the best purchases I ever made. It has enabled me to practice more than ever with no compromises and for me that's the most important part. I highly recommend!

Has anyone had a chance to take apart a N3 (or N2 or N1) and determine what pieces the action consists of? I have a bit of reluctance to trust Yamaha's marketing because of past experience with their DGX line.

And do all these AvantGrand's have the same action? Some marketing material implies that the N3 is superior, but Yamaha's website lists all three as only "Specialized Grand Piano Action", and that could mean anything.

Third, what are the AvantGrand's actually made of, inside and out? The specifications on the website say only that it is a polished ebony color. For (humorous) comparison, I can buy a Yamaha motorcycle that is polished ebony; I hope they are not the same materials. Are the mechanisms made of wood, and if so will they ever need maintenance? Is the exterior made of the same wood as acoustic pianos, or is it made of something that may be more durable, so perhaps it could live in sunlight or will not be ruined by a spilled drink?

Fourth, why do these pianos have 256-note polyphony? That is almost three times the number of keys, and certainly greater than the number of strings in a grand piano. An orchestra may need 256 notes, but the piano only comes with 5 voices.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, what is the realistic current price for these pianos? They should depreciate faster than an acoustic (even when unsold in the dealer showroom), but slower than most DPs and electronics, if only for the fact that no better new product is on the horizon. The only prices I have seen include the short-term premium to be the first person to own one.

(the following was edited in later)
How repairable is the piano? Many people may say "its electronics. If it breaks, you have to throw it away and buy a new one", but that is only true for cheap electronics. If my computer breaks, I can replace a broken part for around $150, instead of paying $1500 for a comparable new computer. Somewhere inside the Avantgrand, there is a processor, circuit board, computer memory, and 88+ sensors; can any of them be replaced? Does Yamaha have a supply of replacement parts so the machine can be fixed 5 or 10 years from now? (car companies are required to keep several year's worth of replacement parts, so this is not a far-fetched idea).


If the hype is true, then Yamaha has raised the bar for electronic pianos. They used to be a cheap substitute for acoustic pianos. Now, however, they are a viable alternative: a large group of customers have needs (other than price) which the Avantgrand may satisfy better.

I tried to take apart my N3 one time but didn't get very far with it. The keyboard and its action seems to be built-in pretty tight and not designed to be easily pulled out/removable. I'm guessing you don't remove the keyboard and action to work on it. Instead, you take off things that cover it up to get access to the action.

My understanding is that they're all the same action, although the N1 keyboard is plastic resin material while the N2 and N3 keyboard is ivorite material.

I'm no expert on this, but the N3 is made out of wood and the paint and polish is on par with that of a nice acoustic. The cover is thick and heavy. Only the underside is not polished but just black painted particle board, which looks a little cheap, but of course you don't see it unless you lie on your back.

I believe the advantage of 256-note polyphony is for better harmony sounds. For example, when you strike a note, you don't only hear from that note, but you also hear resonance caused by that string on other neighboring strings. So the higher the note polyphony, the better you can model sympathetic resonance from more strings.

The most important question is also the most difficult question to answer. On the N3, you won't pay $20K list for sure. I'd guess $14K-$15K is probably the average street price. If you can get one for $10K-$12K, it'd be a phenomenal deal. And $12K-$14K would be a good deal.

I wouldn't worry about parts availability. After all, this is a Yamaha product, and Yamaha has been around for decades in the business. The N3 comes with 5 year warranty in the US.

Only you can check it out to determine if it's hype or if it meets your expectation. These are not cheap substitute for acoustic pianos by any mean, judging from their prices. They're designed to be a viable alternative to acoustic drawbacks, for people who can afford acoustics, but prefer to have the advantages of the digitals without sacrificing too much in sound and action quality.

Why don't you guys take this to the Digital Piano forum?

Why don't you not read it if you don't want to? Besides, I'm not the one who started this thread in this forum. If you don't like where this thread belong, take it up with the OP or the moderator.

In my opinion, the Avant-Grand as a hybrid is suitable to be discussed in either forum. It's not a big deal.

I find this a most interesting thread. Space limitations forced me to "mix apples and oranges," to quote a comment above. I could only afford the physical space for one box. I need to be able to play in silence in what was once an apartment building (and is now condos).

Both the AvantGrand and the U3SG (Silent U3) sound impressive to me when heard through EXPENSIVE headphones. However, the sound of the Avant through its own speakers was like listening to a phone message machine or a phone tree voice instead of hearing a real person. To my ear, it just didn't cut it. Am I the only one who thinks even the latest model Avant doesn't sound like a real piano (despite sampling a 9 foot skillion-dollar concert grand) when heard through its own speaker system? Does that unsatisfactory sound not bother musicians? To me, this is a much bigger deal than the difference between the Avant action feel and that of, say, a good upright. (I know classical players will disagree. I play jazz, if that matters.)

You're right--almost nobody buys a Silent Piano. I couldn't find one and had to order it through my dealer. (Is there another piano besides Yamaha that you could actually buy without ever having played and yet know exactly what it will sound like except Yamaha?)

One astute commenter above says the Silent Piano has built-in obsolescence. This is true, but the digital component of the Silent is never heard through inferior speaker systems that indeed will go out of date. Instead, it's ONLY heard through headphones. (The U3SG doesn't have any speakers.) My ear says that unlike with the sound of the Avant speakers, when either an Avant or a U3SG are heard through top-notch headphones, both sound plenty good for practicing purposes. And who uses the silent feature of either, except for practicing?

Comments, anybody?
P.S. It took five MONTHS from the ordering of the U3SG for it to arrive on the west coast!!! Circumstances force me away from home. I haven't yet played it and won't get to it for 2 more months. It's keeping me up at night.

Am I the only one who thinks even the latest model Avant doesn't sound like a real piano (despite sampling a 9 foot skillion-dollar concert grand) when heard through its own speaker system?

In a side by side comparison, the N3 won't win any contests but if it were in a restaurant or hotel, I'm guessing a lot of folks might be fooled. I only bought the N3 because of the grand piano action. (I bought it to replace my 12 year old GranTouch ... and my GranTouch was bought to replace a Yamaha C3.)

I practice more than 90 percent of the time with headphones. I keep the levels fairly low and really just want a grand action to practice on - at lower than normal levels. I live in a house with neighbors on both sides and for me the pluses outweigh the minuses.

When we throw a party I'll play through the built in sound system and only wish I had control over boosting the bass response when playing at less than typical 'acoustic' levels.

It is what it is. (This is a long thread and I probably wrote earlier what I'm writing here.)

I play classical, and I agree completely. The sound matters. I've tried to get across the point in this long thread that the action alone does not do the job. Its both the sound and action working in conjunction with each other that gives rise to the complete experience. Just having a grand piano action in there doesn't cut it.

Dave here is a jazz pianist. For him, the action is of primary importance. I too thought earlier that this might have to do with his playing jazz and me playing classical but with your post, it suggests that might not be the case.

Jivemutha,

Your overly negative comments about the sound of the AvantGrand aren't consistent with the comments of hundreds of musicians (including some who are well known and highly regarded) who've played N2 and N3 AvantGrand pianos in the Faust Harrison showrooms. They don't tend to say that these AvantGrands sound exactly like the top acoustic pianos; however, none of them has ever said that N2's or N3's sound like "phone message machines" or "phone trees".

Perhaps you're commenting only on the sound of the AvantGrand N1 - the budget model in which the speakers aren't the same super-high quality as in the other models? If so, please let us know. It would be unfair to generalize to an entire line based on an experience with just the bottom of the line. On the other hand, if your comments are about the N2 or the N3, then we have a bit of mystery to solve.

Irving, haven't seen you for a while, welcome back!

Sometime ago I asked you if you would let us know if you ever have to remove the action of an N3. At some point I'll have to remove mine and have it worked on. If you ever have to remove an action, please consider making a video of the process.

Can you share more stories on how many AvantGrand's you've sold?

I shouldn't have to write this, but I will ... and I'll probably regret it.

Of course, just about everyone here can hear and appreciate the difference between a well voiced, in tune acoustic piano and a digital or hybrid. There are differences, we can hear them, but for some of us ... and it has nothing to do with the type of music we play, the sound of the beast comes in second place - a close second or a distant second to the feel of the action. A perfect world would always have a perfect marriage of the two, but with the constraints of money and neighbors ... and one's own hearing, compromises will always be made.

I always find it curious that there's a distinction made between classical performers and performers of the jazz flavor. There's almost a negative connotation with the use of the word jazz ... (and historical usage backs that sentiment up).

This goes without saying but every composer worth his salt (or her salt) is or was a brilliant improvisor, period. Many here seem to forget that. Jazz is specific to a period of time but the art of improvising has always been here and the finest composers have always been among the best in that art form.

REPLY: It is possible what I thought was an N2 was an N1--you're right. The N3 is pretty impossible to mistake, is it not? You're also arguably right that comoparing the sound the way I did was hyperbolic--my apology.

That said, it just doesn't sound to my ear like a real piano. When I heard each AG I had had no preconceptions (either good or bad). I think most people admit the AG doesn't sound PRECISELY like an acoustic, but that difference is vastly smaller than the difference between acoustics and other digitals past or present.

The question then becomes subjective--does that much smaller difference still bother the listener? It bothered me very much.

Irving--do you sell these things?

REPLY: To me it may still make sense to separate out jazz from classical because differences in the music may work better or worse with different kinds of piano sounds. Forgive me for getting off topic, but over the years I've noticed that jazz players (as a group--not necessarily as individuals) are often happier with Yamaha pianos than are many classical players. This has caused me to scratch my head. In the end, I think that the very complex harmonies used in jazz may work better with a "clean" sound than with a "complex" sound. "Complex" plus sharped 11ths may be a bit too much?? In contrast, I've heard some classical players express boredom with the Yamaha sound, calling it "sterile" (besides "too bright").

Oscar Peterson is the only jazz player I know of who chose Bosendorfer. Many jazz players choose Yamaha--not just Chick Corea. (OK, OK, my theory falls apart when we get to Steinway--often much beloved by players of both kinds of music.)