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Sorry if this has been covered before ...

Inside the Kawai MP7 & MP11: Does anyone (perhaps KawaiJames?) know specifically what the difference is between the first set of Piano SOUNDS (Concert, Studio, Mellow & Jazz) and the second set (Concert2, Studio2, Mellow2 & Jazz2)?

There is certainly a subtle difference between each voice compared to its associated #2, but I'm wondering if anyone can elaborate a bit on the nature of the difference.

Which I guess brings me to a related question:

Are these truly 4 different acoustic pianos that were sampled (Concert, Jazz, Mellow, Studio) or are some of these simply different recordings (different mic placement?) of the same physical acoustic piano?

As I continue to tweak and extend my SETUPs I'm trying to get a clearer sense for the nature of the raw material (SOUND) presets.

Thanks for any insight that can be shared (without anyone at Kawai having to kill me for knowing what I'll then know).

- OneWatt

I may be able to answer my own question ...

In retracing my steps and (re)viewing Kawai's MP series website, it would appear that all 4 of the primary acoustic grand piano "sounds" (Concert, Studio, Mellow, and Jazz) were recorded from the same Kawai EX Grand.

I'm assuming this because - if it were otherwise - one might reasonably expect to see the Kawai website elaborate on the fact that 4 different pianos were used for 4 different sets of samples and tout this as a feature of the diversity of sample sets included in the MP series. That would be a marketing bonanza not to be missed, right?

So, unless my reasoning is bogus, may I assume the differences between the 4 primary acoustic grand piano SOUNDs in the MP series keyboards are due solely to post-processing (i.e., EQ) ... thereby creating different sonic versions of the same original sample sets?

To be clear, I'm not being critical of the MP - I love mine! Just trying to get clarity around what the presets are about so I can more intelligently tweak them to my individual needs and tastes.

Thanks for insights anyone can share (or set me straight if I'm all wet on this reasoning above).

- OneWatt

I believe this is correct. From others comments, the original sounds are from the new samples for the HI-XL engine. The #2 versions are the previous set for the HI engine.

Last fall I was asking similar questions and if memory serves correct, the previous version was built around one recorded note spawning four. Ex: C4 could be stretched and create the sample for C#4, D4 and D#4.

(I plead the Fifth if I am wrong on this.)

Thanks for your reply. This is kind of interesting... the Kawai website makes a point of saying that each key is individually sampled - which makes me wonder whether stretching is involved in this latest generation of samples in the MP series.

What I suspect though is that each sampled key, while consisting of a set of audio samples from pp to ff in terms of velocity range, are then EQ'ed to generate the other derivative SOUNDs (e.g., Concert is used to create Studio, Mellow and Jazz).

Would be beneficial to see if KJames can comment. Of course, the folks at Kawai might have to take him out back and rough him up if he divulges anything on this topic ;-)

Indeed, it's not worth the hassle.

If you enjoy the sounds your MP7 produces, that's surely the main thing. My attempting to explain which sounds come from which piano and how it was sampled etc. is unlikely to change your enjoyment of the product.

Cheers,
James
x

Smooth

I have owned my MP7 for just over a month. One of the deciding factors as to why I chose the MP7 was the quality of the piano sounds. I rather naively always assumed that the Grand/Studio/Mellow/Jazz 1&2 sounds all originated from one carefully chosen and sampled EX acoustic piano. The very fact that the MP7 has the virtual technician function, indicated that this sample could be tweaked even more to the individual user's taste.

I had considered buying a Yamaha CP4 (also a very good DP) and noted that they appeared to have 3 separately sampled acoustic piano samples, all of which I liked, but it does not trouble me if the MP7 only uses one sample as the basis of it's range of piano sounds. Whilst the sample might originate from one acoustic piano, I got the impression that there were a significant number of variable parameters in how the samples from that one piano were recorded.

Do I like the pianos on a Yamaha CP4 ...YES, do I like the pianos on a Roland RD800....YES, and I also like the pianos on a Kawai MP7, but in addition I also like many of the other capabilities of the MP7. I was also looking for something different to the already great piano sounds I have on my Roland and Korg gear.

And, in regard to whether I hear artifacts in the samples, which has been the subject of quite a degree of interesting discussion in these forums, all I can say is that I must be very fortunate, because I cannot hear any of the artifacts that others have been troubled by....however I make the disclaimer that I do suffer from tinitus...so my ears have their own natural artifacts!

Alan

This is the best I can make out from the CA95:



(For the colour-blind: the order is 12121212 11344342)

1 is the HI-XL (long samples) 88-key sample that probably takes up 95% of the flash memory. A great sample that can hold its own against recent software pianos

2 is the older stretched sound. Sounds more distant and many of the stretched notes sound very artificial. Lower stereo width than (1). I find this pretty unusable, although I'll occasionally use Mellow Grand 2 for practicing since it's quite easy on the ears, despite not sounding much like a piano

3 is the new Upright sound. Nice sounding, though stretched. Looping sounds quite unrealistic

4 is some ancient sound that has no business existing in the 21st century... Mono, very limited dynamics, totally unusable. I think this might have been ditched for the MP11 and CA97

I first thought the jazz piano might be a different set of samples (same piano, different recording setup) but after looking at the kawaimp site, it seems it could rather apply to the pop piano.
And indeed, the jazz piano seems to be the same samples shifted down a tone (the slight beating on the G4 unison is now on F4).

@KJ: Not that it matters much, I'm very happy with my MP7 too ! We're just curious about our instruments :-)

PhJ
Others have noticed the F#4 defect on other voices as well. You may be on to something in your thoughts.

It would be more realistic, in terms of the presets, to record one instrument using different mic perspectives instead of tweaking one recording to "sound" as different perspectives of the instrument. Software pianos take the long road for a reason: It's better.

If you take a recording made with a "wide perspective" and then try to process it into a "close perspective," something gets lost in translation (processing). Physically positioning the microphones close, far, in between, obliquely, and/or perpendicularly is the way to go. Oh, I forgot, underneath, behind, inside, atop, and pretty much anywhere the engineers want, the microphones need to be handled physically and not -so much- virtually. End of story!

On the CA65, my general impression is that every sound designated "2" has a brighter tone than its counterpart. I couldn't say how this difference was produced. Some of them I prefer, like the Classic EP2 and Drawbar Organ2, but for piano I pretty much stick to Concert Grand.

@Pete14: I fully agree it would be more realistic... but it would also entail 4x as much resources (time + labor + editing + storage) to move the mic and start all over again for each of the 4 "voices" across 88 keys. The folks at Kawai do have to make a profit if we want them to continue making these great keyboards.





@JustAlan: As a fellow tinitus sufferer I enjoyed your comment about "artifacts." It's fortunate we're not plagued by those buzzing resonances that some have reported.

I especially like your default assumption that all MP7 piano SOUND presets were derived from a single sample set. So much so, I think after going back to read everything written and discussed on this topic, your assumption is spot on the mark.

Again, if Kawai had sampled different individual grands, or had indeed physically moved the mic position around (as Pete14 notes would be the "proper way") then this would be a big story worth telling throughout its marketing materials. The absence of such claims strongly suggests this was not the case.

Ok, so in practical terms what does any of this mean for us happy MP7 owners if the various piano grands are simply EQ'ed variations on a single Concert Grand sampling session? Not much... except I am more tempted now to EQ my own variations of "Concert Grand" and actually replace one or more of those other presets. And BTW, being able to replace (and easily restore) SOUND presets in the MP7/MP11 is s SUPERB feature not available in other DPs, to my knowledge. Another reason to love these keyboards.

There is one tidbit out there I found a bit puzzling at first... in (re)searching this topic again I came across a response to a similar question posed about a year ago, and the response was made by KJ himself. I shall include this exchange below, but in short he says that the MP11 and MP7 feature "different piano samples" for each category.

Given that KJ is well-informed and his diligence in getting his facts straight is well known throughout this forum, then "each category" would likely mean: Grand vs Upright vs EP, etc. each being a unique piano category.

And that WITHIN a given category, e.g., the Grand category of buttons 1-1-A/B/C/D (Concert/Studio/Mellow/Jazz) the sounds are derived from a single sampling effort (88keys x various dynamics from pp to ff) produced from a single Kawai EX Concert Grand. Variations thereof within that category are the result of post-processing, which primarily means EQ, perhaps some compression but not likely as that would suck the life and airiness out of the sample.


FROM THE ORIGINAL: "KAWAI MP7 THREAD"



Although I suspect Musical Dan's original question was the same one I posed in starting this thread, it appears that KJ was careful and deliberate in how he answered it

If you want to go to the trouble of providing me with a DPBSD MP3 of each voice I could tell you exactly what is going on in there.

The MP10 has at least 3 separate piano samples as shown here.

I don't see why it would be necessary to "move the mic and start all over again...", etc. Why not just set up a bunch of mics in a wide variety of locations, record each mic to a separate track, and go through the whole recording process just once? Then create different sample sets by combining various selected tracks in ways that produce the desired results. This wouldn't take much more effort than tweaking a single recording to produce different sample sets, and it is to be expected that some effort is going to be required to produce the sample sets for a high-end, expensive, digital piano.

Savante - Excellent idea. Your forum handle is well deserved - OneWatt

@dewster - Done! I created the 4 mp3 files for the native MP7 primary grand piano SOUNDS (turning the preset reverb off in each case). If you can PM me with an email address I will forward them to you. Any insights you might be able to share will be greatly appreciated by us all! - OneWatt

No comment about what your forum handle might imply.

MP7 GRAND PIANO SOUNDS: The verdict is in.

In response to this thread I received a generous offer from "dewster" (of DPBSD Project fame) to directly address my original question by performing a sonic analysis of the MP7's piano samples.

I provided him with a series of mp3 files generated on my MP7 using his latest DPBSD MIDI-file. The series covered each of the first 8 grand piano voices in the MP7.

[Spoiler alert: before opening the envelope to share the results, I should hasten to add that I remain a big MP7 fan, and find it to be an outstanding DP keyboard in most every respect.]

RESULTS:

In brief, dewster found that each of the first 4 preset SOUNDs in the MP7 are all derived from the same base sample set. Specifically we're referring to:

1-1-A Concert Grand
1-1-B Studio Grand
1-1-C Mellow Grand
1-1-D Jazz Grand

He has concluded that the differences between the SOUNDs within this first set are simply the result post-processing, most likely of an EQ adjustment nature. But to be clear, the differences you hear are not the result of four separate sampling efforts of four different pianos. They share the same sonic "DNA" and are derived from a single sampling file set.

The next 4 preset SOUNDS (in the second SOUND bank) are also derived from a single base sample set, however this sample set clearly differs from that used for the first 4 grand piano voices above. To be clear, we're now referring to:

1-2-A Concert Grand 2
1-2-B Studio Grand 2
1-2-C Mellow Grand 2
1-2-D Jazz Grand 2

Again, any differences between these four presets arises from post-processing edits made on this same (second) base audio sample set. This is probably an older generation sample set inasmuch as he also concluded that members of this second set of grand pianos were "highly stretched" during the post-processing stage - typically producing 4-note spans, but in at least one case as much as a 7-note span (e.g., right in the middle range of the "Jazz Grand 2" voice).

This is noteworthy in large part because the MP7/MP11 website and marketing literature claim the following (direct quote):

"Recording each key individually in this way – as opposed to stretching the same tone over several different notes – preserves the rich harmonic character of the EX concert grand piano, and guarantees that the sound heard when playing any one of the MP7’s keys is a faithful representation of the original acoustic source."

Well yes, but according to dewster's analysis, this description would not pertain to this second set of grands as evidenced by the "stretching" of a single key sample across multiple keys throughout the sample set. Plus, dewster also analyzed the 1-4-A UPRIGHT and 1-3-A POP Piano audio files and concluded these reflect stretched samples across 2 to 4 keys in each case.

Kawai's website doesn't really lay the cards out very candidly ... Consider this: if in fact only a handful (four preset SOUNDs?) of the hundreds of SOUNDs contained in the MP7 are based on individual key-by-key samples, and the rest are not, is the statement above taken from Kawai's website as clear a description of what's featured in the MP7 as you might have hoped?

DOES ANY OF THIS MATTER?

Well if you love each of those individual preset grand piano voices, then I would say no, it doesn't matter at all. Enjoy hitting those SOUND buttons and playing the various presets to your heart's content.

Personally, I would have preferred Kawai have a policy of making this kind of information more readily available as a matter of trust and confidence in the intelligence of musicians/consumers of their keyboard products. Making consumers have to back-solve answers to such basic questions about their products is not putting Kawai's best foot forward.

Then again, other companies behave similarly so perhaps there's no surprise here. (I reject the argument that non-disclosure is needed to protect against competitors because each manufacturer knows ALL about how sampled sounds are produced - there's no secret between them as to what's going on - which leaves one to assume they are afraid of adverse reactions from ill-informed pianists).

But putting all this aside, in the end what's more relevant to my own personal enjoyment of the MP7 follows:

- The "1-1-A" Concert Grand SOUND is truly awesome. One can use the MP7's onboard (yes, post-processing) edit features to tweak it to one's own taste and feel. Frankly, I'd prefer having one superb grand piano sound with extensive editing capabilities rather than 8 different sample sets over which I have no further control.

- Moreover, the Virtual Technician feature extends that control to many parameters that are unique to the playing (and listening) experience of an acoustic piano. In effect, this further widens the range of piano experiences achievable using the one single (non-stretched) acoustic piano sample contained in that first set of "4 grands" in the SOUND bank.

- Besides grand piano, so many of the other SOUNDs are also excellent. Even with its highly satisfying 88-key hammer-weighted bed, the MP7 is much more than just an acoustic piano emulation device. Between the superb EPs, first class tonewheel organ features, strings, synths, etc., and MIDI controller features, this keyboard is a remarkable package of capabilities.

For those of us who have a genuine interest in knowing what we're buying, I do wish Kawai would be more transparent about "what's what" inside the box.

But thanks to dewster, his tools, and sonic savvy, it's possible for him to discern what's really behind the sounds in today's DPs. If I've screwed up anything in my explanation of his results, that's my fault and I trust he will chime in to set the record straight and I will certainly correct this post accordingly.

Check out his DPBSD thread when you get a chance:

DPBSD Thread


- OneWatt

So... exactly what I already told you a few posts up.