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Originally Posted by Bill-ICPT
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Bill, I looked through the operating manual and have a question. When the app displays a beatrate of a played interval, is it the result of directly measuring the change in amplitude of the combined nearly coincident partials (as the human ear hears it), or is it the result of a calculation regarding the difference in the frequency of the two nearly coincident partials (same as if the notes were played separately and then calculated) ?

Jeff, it is the latter. When the beating pair are not too close in frequency (pitch), the separately calculated one should be the same as what is heard. Note when the two partials are too close as in the case of unison, the two strings may couple together in vibration, meaning the actual sound frequency may be different from any of the partials played separately. Although we are not concerned too much as unison can be tuned easier with ear and/or the sound wave, and non-union pair are unlikely too close in frequency when tuned.

I see, thanks. The reason I asked was if it was the former, just inputing the note-name of the nearly coincident partial (like A6) would be all that is needed. OK, that's not the case.

I take it that the app cannot automatically determine which two notes are being played in an interval, that it must be explicitly told. Yet it can automatically determine which note when one single note is played, and display pitch information. It would be tiresome to need to manually reselect the notes of the intervals that you want the beatrate for while tuning. Would it be feasible to have a mode where if two notes were played separately within a few seconds, the app would then display the beatrate for that interval, when both notes are played together, until the interval is reset by playing two other notes separately within a few seconds? This would be a mode selected manually by the tuner.


Jeff Deutschle
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Originally Posted by Bill-ICPT
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Thanks, Bill. I was asking about your preferred sequence to try to get an insight in how you constructed your app. I was surprised to see that you used the circle of 5ths when getting input for calculating stretch instead of sampling the notes chromatically. That would be simpler for many tuners, especially ones that rely on the RBIs (3rds and 6ths) rather than the SBIs (4ths and 5ths).

My preferred sequence is one that corrects itself through iterations. For instance, consider just the notes within a 5th, F to C. If all the minor thirds (m3s) are progressive but have nearly the same beat speed, the M3s will also be progressive, but be too progressive with F-A too slow and G#-C too fast. And visa versa. This is one of many things I's like to verify with your app.

But this sequence within a 5th might only be used by me. The most popular ones involve contiguous major thirds, so your app might work well for that if there was a way to easily get the beatrates of F3-A3, A3-C#4, C#4-F4 and F4-A4 while tuning from one note to the next and back and forth.

Is this the kind of input you were looking for?

Jeff, yes those are very helpful. I will go through your words again when I add the codes. So far I think about adding the following pairs for the beat progression run. If I miss any, please let me know.

Octave 2:1 Octave Exact
Major sixth 5:3 Two octaves and major third Wide
Minor sixth 8:5 Three octaves Narrow
Perfect fifth 3:2 Octave and fifth Slightly narrow
Perfect fourth 4:3 Two octaves Slightly wide
Major third 5:4 Two octaves and major third Wide
Minor third 6:5 Two octaves and fifth Narrow
Unison 1:1 Unison Exact

BTW, if you have a moment to write out your typical tuning steps (and mark where you wish to use ETD), I may be able to add more functions to assist your tuning.

Thank you.

Bill

Here's my sequence. Apologize for any typos.

If you analyze what happens if the beatrate of the P4 is in error, say 1 cent, the error of G3-A#3 will be twice that @ 2 cents, but the error of F#3 and B3 are likely to be half that @ 1/2 cent. Proceeding further, the error of G#3 and A3 are likely to be only half that again @ 1/4 cent. Then when comparing G3-A#3 m3 to the other m3s, any error of the P4s is "magnified" and easily determined. Gotta say that it does require a good ear for beatrates and especially for beatrate progressions. These skills can be assisted by a device that displays beatrates, such as your app. smile I look forward to trying it, but need to get a better mic first.

C5 to pitch
Check with M17/M17 test using G#2
F3 to C5 pure 12th
Check P12 with M6/M17 test using G#2
C4 to C5 best sounding octave
Check F3-C4 P5 with M6/M10 test using G#2
G3 to C4 P4 ~1bps
A#3 to F3 P4 ~1bps
Sanity check G3-A#3 ~11bps
F#3 to A#3 ~7bps, just to get started
B3 to F#3 P4 ~1bps
Check progression of F#3-A#3 M3, G3-B3 M3
Adjust F#3-B3 P4 up or down for proper M3 progression
**NOTE** All three P4s MUST have identical beatrates
G#3 to F3 and B3 for contiguous m3s (cm3s)
A3 to F3 and C4 for cm3s
Check progression of m3s
If G3-A#3 m3 beats too fast, P4s also beat too fast
Or if G3-A#3 m3 beats too slow, P4s also beat too slow
Retune P4s if needed
**NOTE** All three P4s MUST have identical beatrates
Retune G#3 and A3 if needed
Check progression of M3s
If F3-A3 M3 is too slow and G#3-C4 M3 is too fast
then retune F#3-B3 higher
Or if F3-A3 M3 is too fast and G#3-C4 M3 is too slow
then retune F#3-B3 lower
**NOTE** All three P4s MUST have identical beatrates
Retune G#3 and A3 if needed
Rinse and repeat if needed

Expand temperament by tuning:
C#4 to G#3 P4 temporarily pure
Listen to beatrate of F#3 to to C#4
Raise C#4 to half the beatrate
Check F#3-C#4 P5 beats slower than G#3-C#4 P4
If the P4 and P5 beat too fast, then F#3-G#3 is too narrow
Or if the P4 and P5 beat too slow, then F#3-G#3 is too wide
Continue expanding temperament in like manner
Check F4 to A#3 and C5 for contiguous P5s (CP5s)
Check G4 to D3 and C5 for contiguous P4s (CP4s)

Ugh, enough for now!!!


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That's awesome, Jeff. Thank you!

Bill

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Ooops, made a typo:

Check progression of m3s
If G3-A#3 m3 beats too fast, P4s also beat too fast beat too slow
Or if G3-A#3 m3 beats too slow, P4s also beat too slow beat too fast
Retune P4s if needed


Jeff Deutschle
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I'll be away from the internet for a number of days (Ahhh...), so don't think I am ignoring this Topic. I'll make replies when I return from the "real" world.


Jeff Deutschle
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Got a mic, will order app today, if I can figure out how.


Jeff Deutschle
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Got the app, but am just using the beatrate function right now. Wanted to compare the results using my ear and using the app. Have to admit it did improve what I was listening for in the m3s. I can see it being a good tool for ear training and experimentation. Here are the resulting beatrates on a Charles Walter Console with F3-C4 P5 tuned pure:

Interval.......1st Aural.......App.......2nd Aural

F-B.............#####........11.9......11.9
F#-C...........#####........12.1......12.2

F-A#...........01.2.............01.1.......01.0
F#-B...........01.8.............01.0.......01.2
G-C............00.9..............00.7.......01.1

F-A.............07.0.............07.5.......06.5
F#-A#.........07.6.............07.2.......07.2
G-B............08.0..............07.6.......07.7
G#-C...........08.8.............07.9.......07.8

F-G#............09.9.............09.0.......08.6
F#-A............10.9.............10.5.......11.2
G-A#...........10.6..............11.0.......11.0
G#-B...........10.5.............12.2.......12.2
A-C..............11.8.............12.0.......11.0

Not sure what to think about some of the results. Like the first aural had the worst 4ths, but the best RBIs. And the second Aural had the best 4ths, the worst RBIs. Pointing towards just enough of a scaling jump somewhere, but maybe not. Maybe one of you fine folks can show where corrections might be made. smile

Oh, and what may be the limiting factor is the rendering - high friction.


Jeff Deutschle
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I see the error now in the 2nd aural attempt. A should be higher and G# lower. Not a scaling problem, just gotta work on hearing the minor 3rds. This sequence requires that.


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Jeff,

Get yourself some CBL from Jon Page. It really helps the rendering issues. I don't know how I lived without it so many years.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor


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Originally Posted by P W Grey
Jeff,

Get yourself some CBL from Jon Page. It really helps the rendering issues. I don't know how I lived without it so many years.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

Thanks, I've used some before and didn't find it worth the trouble. In this case it is not any sort of corrosion, where lubes can shine, it is high pressure bar angle. It's my personal piano and long ago I eased up on the pressure bar, but it could still use some more.

Not sure if I missed the error while tuning, or things slipped, (as they occasionally do with such pinblock/rendering combinations) by the time I recorded the beatrates.

Mostly it was to verify the tuning sequence with an objective look at the beatrates. I am satisfied it is rock-solid, but still takes some skill. The strong point is that with each step, the newly tuned notes have less and less error. This is far different than taking a guess and seeing how it turns out later, then making adjustments and trying all over again, or getting in the ball park and fixing things as you go. Instead, if the initial errors are small enough, you need only fix those because the later notes have been largely self-corrected, usually to the the ability of a tuner to either perceive the errors or deal with the pinblock/rendering.

The challenging part is tuning the middle note of the Cm3s, knowing what the proper progression sounds like. And also, for me, setting the pin on an RBI is different than doing so on an SBI. I don't hear that subtle change as a string renders as easily. Still much better, if you ask me, than working on a ladder of CM3 spanning a 10th. All those notes and only one is fixed. In the case of my Cm3s, the outer notes are already tuned and only the middle is adjusted. (F-G#-B and F#-A-C)


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Automatic beat progression measurement when playing two strings together,


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