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Has anyone used this program? It was mentioned briefly here in 2011, but that was an earlier version.

I'm interested in using it to check beat rates.

Here's the URL btw:

http://www.cc-ast.com/icpianotuner.html

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Not much is disclosed on the webpage about the measurement techniques employed or accuracy of frequency resolution. Do you know who and where this is from?


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Found a reference to it right here, at PS! Something that actually counts beat rates? Sounded interesting.

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I took a quick look for a youtube video and didn't find one. I'd like to see it in action.



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The website is not very helpful.

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No, it's not.

I emailed a request for a copy of the program manual, and I got a timely response saying there was no separate manual - it was integrated into the program. He said the main function was described in the website.


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Stuck my neck out and purchased it. The manual/help is poorly conceived; it is therefore very, very hard to figure out how to use the program. I've had no luck at all so far. ($50 US $72 Can)

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Hi,
I'm not sure if my comments will be helpful or appropriate to the question, but since other aspiring tuners may be reading this, I'll throw it out there:
In my opinion, counting beats is a waste of time. If you wish to use an EDT, spring for something comprehensive like the Verituner. If you want do do it aurally, do it aurally but don't try to count beats. While I'm not yet an RPT, i do plan on taking the tests this spring, and my aural tuning is now almost entirely within 1 cent. The key is to "memorize" the sound of really just one beating interval: F3 to A3/A4. You don't have to count the actual number of beats, but rather internalize what it SOUNDS like--two different concepts.
After that, setting the major 3rd A3-C#4 is easy: it has to be just a little faster. Do I count it?
No way. But now I'm nailing it consistently. After that, I set F3-D4. Do I count the beats?
No. It just has to be very slightly faster than F-A, and not so fast as A-C#. And all the other beat rates just need to fall in line with what I have already. It all depends on whether you can perceive and control the relative rates. My mentor and I agree: actually attempting to count beats is kooky talk. But then, you have to use multiple checks anyway. I don't JUST tune the F-D relative to the thirds I have, but also check it against 4ths and 5ths (D vs the two As).

I don't suggest I'm yet ready to do fine aural concert turnings. But I'm confident this manner of judging RELATIVE rates will get me past the PTG exam. None of this is really my idea--just following Bill Bremmers advice and tweaking the sequence for my own use.

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sfc - From that post, I can see you are well on your way to passing your RPT !



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Mr.Bremmer has been saying that for years.


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New upgraded version v5.0.0 just out. New features are described in the website,
http://www.cc-ast.com/icpianotuner.html

to mention a few, adjustable frequency resolution, stretch tuning optimization of C4->B4, special beating enhancement, manually selectable pitch, convenient reference pitch marks, pitch tuning tracing history, a ~40 page extensive user manual with string-by-string tuning examples for beginners, quick beating references between strings, etc.

For questions about beat counting, there are three ways to see it instead of hear it,

(1) Watch the sound tracing profile real time (synchronized with your ear) goes from peak to trough and back to peak, which is one beat. The graph shown as of today (11/30/2017) in the website is about 3 beats per second (the division is 1 second);
(2) The program calculates the beating between two played strings at a pitch and shows the results, e.g., C4&G4 has a 3:2 beating at G5 pitch;
(3) watch the frequency difference in a partial frequency graph where two strings has a common pitch (such as G5 in (2) above for C4&G4), where each Hz make one beat. The cent value difference can also be used to calculate the beat, just remember if the frequency is doubled (an octave difference), the same cent at the lower pitch is only make half of the beat at the high pitch.

Some comment about tuning without watching/listening the beating effect,

some tuning software offers a prescription for pitches of all the strings by only asking one play for each string, which overlooks the complexity of pianos. Due to the echo from the environment and the piano itself, the pitch of a string may undergo from being amplified at a cent position to being suppressed at a nearby cent position. Unexpected beatings or voicing will appear from time to time. Not to mention the interference effects among unison strings.

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I think this is the one I downloaded and experimented with a while ago. You probably can search for my comments from then. For what I was interested in, a digital beatrate display, rather than a bar graph, would have been more useful.

As far as the usefulness of beatrates, only one thing is more important when setting or evaluating a temperament: stability. The thing to remember is it is the progression of the beatrates, not any absolute values, that must be striven for. Sure, use an ETD, and then tell me how it's ability in setting a temperament is evaluated. Yep, by listening to the beatrate progressions. laugh laugh laugh


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I like the concept of using beat rates in an electronic tuning system as the arbiter in placing a pitch. After all, it is beats that governs how we perceive a tuning, and at least for me how I implement a tuning.


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Anyone who has the beat rates of whatever they produce, either aurally or electronically read out by a computer will be disappointed in how they do not reflect theoretical numbers. They never do and never will.

I very much appreciate the comments from some who have used my methodology. I've served as an examiner for 26 years, so way back in 2003, I started to try to find the reason why technicians had failed the exams and find solutions to that problem.

I often have people who only tune electronically ask me, "What do you do, count beats?" The answer is, "No, I compare and control them". Sometimes, they say, "I can't hear beats" but most often, if I work with them, even novices, I find that they actually can hear them but do not know what to do with them. Once a person locks into what they are really hearing, they become very perceptive.

The Rapidly Beating Intervals (RBI) are actually the foundation for how the piano sounds; for the music it produces. They occur between the higher harmonics which piano technicians call, "partials" (That is actually an adjective, used as a noun. "Partial tone".) Some people can single out harmonics but many cannot and it is not necessary to do so.

The sound of the RBI is perceived by most people as a resonance. The first piano technology lecturer that clued me into it back in 1979, called it the piano's "vibrato". Listen to the sound of a Major third anywhere in the low midrange and it will sound to you as a vibrato like sound although a true vibrato sound is actually a wavering pitch. What you actually hear are harmonics that are not in tune with each other (and producing rapid beats), even though the sound is pleasing to the ear.

Anyone who claims that they cannot hear beats but can still recognize an out of tune sound from the piano is actually hearing beats. The ability to perceive beats well enough to tune a piano by ear is an acquired skill, to be sure. You have to start somewhere, so as Julie Andrews sang, "Let's start at the beginning. It's the very best place to start". Any person wishing to learn aural piano tuning skills needs to be able to perceive and control the RBI's.


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I am assuming that the ICPT is able to be used in such a way that beat rates can be compared between successive intervals, as with aural tuning, but with the assistance and confirmation that it may provide. As we know, absolute beat rates are of limited value.

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Bill, Chris, I have to smile. We are all saying very much the same thing. And yet we DO use absolute beatrates, at least at the beginning with RBIs, and often all the time with SBIs. And I am sure others experience what I do when something slips and you know an RBI is off without dong any sort of comparing with others. wink

Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT
...

The Rapidly Beating Intervals (RBI) are actually the foundation for how the piano sounds; for the music it produces. They occur between the higher harmonics which piano technicians call, "partials" (That is actually an adjective, used as a noun. "Partial tone".) ...

Any person wishing to learn aural piano tuning skills needs to be able to perceive and control the RBI's.


Well Bill, of course that is only part of the story. There are many things an aural tuner needs to do, such as stability. But although RBI beatrates are important, just one sour SBI makes a piano sound horrible - a real problem with me and WTs!

Chris, not sure if IC Piano Tuner automatically switches to different intervals as chromatic intervals are played to compare beatrates or not. You may have to play one interval, remember where the bar graph is, choose another, play it, and mentally compare the bar graph readings. Maybe Bill ICPT can tell us.


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And another thing, I play all the major chords in all their possible inversions within the temperament octave as a check. The times when any "stand out" it is the 4th or 5th that sounds wrong, not the 3rds or 6th. Sure, which note in the SBI is in error can then usually be tracked down by listening to the RBI beatrate progressions, but it is not the RBI beatrates themselves that makes the chord sound wrong, but the 4th or 5th being incorrectly tempered.

But then I am a dyed in the wool 4th and 5th tuner. smile


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But to be truly objective on the subject of absolute vs relative RBI beatrates, we would need to know a couple of things. First, how far from theoretical are the RBI beatrates on a typical range of piano with, say, a 4:2 octave. Second, how close can an typical experienced tuner determine an RBI beatrate?

Anybody ever looked at this?


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Yes, there are times when absolute beat speed are judged, such as temporarily at the beginning stages of a temperament setting, or being happy with the degree of roll in an expanded perfect interval.

A possible role of an ICPT could be so an experienced tuner can confirm how close their RBI beat rates and progressions pan out. Remember this is what Kees has been kindly doing for some year now to help forum members. An app or device that any tuner can use at any time could be useful.


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An introduction video for the beat-based tuning with IC Piano Tuner can be accessed from the top of the website,
http://www.cc-ast.com/icpianotuner.html

or use the following link, www.youtube.com/watch?v=O81leupEp4I

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Why would a tuner want to use such a time consuming process?

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Ian,

The majority of the time spent is the tuning by the hammer, which depends on the skill of the tuner. For the beginner, overtuning happens all the time as well as losing the tuning direction, therefore a software like IC Piano Tuner capable of identifying problem quickly is very useful. A beating sweeping graph does not take significantly more time than aural tuning (due to the high sensitivity, it may actually reduce the tuning time significantly especially for the pitches at the high end of the keyboard), since it merely translates the sound into a real time picture which can be captured easily even for people lack of aural training. And it actually can provide more accurate and more detail about the tuning, e.g., identifying some problems of the partials of the string(s) (which may be due to the sound echo of the room, typically happening at a specific partial), especially for those keys at the high end of the piano.

A microphone is more sensitive than an ear to detect the beating, but I have to say not all beatings are important. An experienced tuner has great value in his ability to tell what is important and what is not. Therefore IC Piano Tuner is a tool to help, not to replace the experience, although it will facilitate the process of learning.

The video is just an introduction demonstrating how tuning based on visual beating graph works. By no means will it imply to tune just two strings with the time spent on the video. You don't need to wait the sound gone before striking the string again to check your tuning. And again how fast you tune the piano depends mainly on the sensitivity of your hammer tuning skill, whether using IC Piano Tuner or aural tuning.

Bill

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I can see how this product might be useful to someone just learning to hear beats, but beyond that, it doesn't seem very useful. In the video the unison tuning using this software is close to perfect but not quite there to my ear. But then I don't like even a tiny bit of twang in my unisons. Frankly, learning to use the tuning hammer/wrench to make these sorts of minute adjustments is perhaps a bigger challenge for the beginning tuner. And that is truly just the beginning of learning to tune aurally.


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Aaron,

You caught it! A perfect tuning in this case would be like an exponentially decaying curve. The curve in the video is slightly off from that if you examine the tail closely. As an introduction video, a perfect tuning is not the focus, as a beginner has too many things to worry about. An experienced tuner can easily hit the dead sound for the unison aurally. IC Piano Tuner helps a beginner connect the visual curve and the sound, facilitating the training of the ear.

Beyond the tuning of the unison, IC Piano Tuner offers other functions such as stretch tuning from C4 to B4 key-by-key, which are useful for beginners as well as more advanced tuners. And the beating function does not stop at unisons, it also applies to, e.g., perfect 4th and 5th. With IC Piano Tuner, an experienced tuner does not need a clock to count the beat, since the beating is shown on the sweeping graph in real time with more accurate result than the counting with a clock. It is expected a microphone is more sensitive than the ear. If you can hear, it can hear too. If it can hear, you can see in the sweeping graph.

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I can't imagine that this program (which I own) was designed for professional tuners. FYI, the Youtube demo says nothing about the main purpose of the program, which is to provide a rough and ready measurement of beats per sec for various intervals in the temperament. Professional tuners do this almost instinctively, as many posters have already pointed out! So the program is of no use to professional piano tuners.

As for tuning trichords, any free tuning software will do THAT much more easily and accurately than this program.


Ergo: the program is fun for NON-tuners (like me) who want a sense of what beat rates sound like as you move up the temperament. It won't "teach" you anything, however. I used it a couple of times to determine whether Verituner had produced a relatively even progression of beat rates on my own piano.

You can do the same thing with Audacity and a microphone, but it's very time-consuming.


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John,

Again the video is an introduction for unison tuning, not intended to cover everything in the program (which will be covered by separate videos). And the program provides a lot of function. Different people use it for different purposes. There is no single goal. If you want the detail of the program, you should go to the product website to download a manual, which is free.

As you said, you are not a professional tuner, it would be better to leave the opinions from professional tuners to those who are. I can see Verituner is your favorite, I hope you continue to enjoy your tuning. I noticed you have an earlier version of IC Piano Tuner. The current version is v.5.0.1. As to the unique feature of beating sweeping graph in IC Piano Tuner, I have not found any other software capable of providing such a key feature, even IC Piano Tuner has been released over five years.

As to the trichord tuning, I guess you mean tuning by pitch, which is the basic task for every piano tuning software including IC Piano Tuner (among one of its functions). And I don't think any software can do better than others with pitch tuning of unison. The task is merely a Fourier transform of the sound wave and picking the harmonics (the partials) out. The accuracy is governed by the duration of the sound wave. If you happened to get a poor resolution of the pitch, it is likely you chose a time duration (selectable in IC Piano Tuner) which is too short. Three seconds is better than one second, for example. But longer time means slower tuning process. So it is a trade-off.

Further a disadvantage of tuning based on pitch is that one doesn't know how close two strings' pitches should be (here we are not talking about experience, rather, just in principle) until checking the beating between them. Although it is less a problem in lower keys, it is getting harder for keys at the high end.

Bill

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IC Piano Tuner: Beating between F3 and A3 strings



www.youtube.com/embed/BACt71n9PVo

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Thanks for posting the video! You have obviously done a lot of hard work on this application. I would be more interested if there was a digital read out of bps of the chosen interval (or simply the chosen nearly coincident partial). As an aural tuner, beat progression is what is important, not cents from theoretical nor even bps from theoretical. What a great training tool it could be! Imagine playing F-A and then F#-A# and quickly tell if the difference in beat rates is about 0.5bps (as it should normally be) or only 0.2bps or too much at 0.8bps. Trying to guess it on a graph just isn't accurate enough.


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Hello Jeff,

Thank you for your suggestions. The digital readout of bps for the pair F3-A3 is actually displayed on the video screenshot above, in red numbers, next to the fifth partial graph. "6.9" in the small window is the measured bps. "5:4(6.9)" above it is the beating frequency ratio and the bps of the equal temperament (in this case the measured bps happens to be same as the equal temperament). The names of F3-A3 pair are shown on the top ("KEY ID" and "Beat Reference"). Red number for wide and blue for narrow.

Nevertheless, your comments are very helpful. I will consider to add some function to make it more efficient when one change a pair to the next pair (e.g., F3-A3 to F#3-A#3 and so on).

Please continue to post your comments and suggestions. Thank you!

Bill

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Bill, I expect I will be buying your app soon, after I take a look at the literature. And you can expect some comments.

I am not an ETD guy, so I may be mistaken on this. The thing that gets me is that regardless of the tuning procedure, evaluating the quality of the temperament is done by listening to the beatrate progression. Yet your app is the ONLY one I know of that can display beatrates while tuning. Not sure if any others calculate and display them in any fashion after the fact.


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Bill, I will go through your manual later, but after looking through the videos I have a feeling you are an aural tuner at heart. May I ask what your preferred aural temperament sequence is?


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Jeff, I don't have preferred aural temperament sequence to suggest (as I am afraid to give you wrong advice). I am sure you have more experience in terms of tuning. My strong background is in physics, math, engineering and programming, but just an amateur piano player and tuner. That is why your opinions worth a lot for me to improve ICPT. My goal is to help a tuner to do the tuning in an efficient way. And yes I am an aural tuner at heart. It's the beauty of piano.

Back in old time, my tuner just used a fork to tune, which drove my curiosity. But many ETDs offer very little information beyond pitch values (at least inconvenient if one tries to measure a beat), so I started to write the codes. I try to put out a lot of functions in ICPT without using the menu structure for convenience, so the interface is not that fancy as some other ETDs.

For the beat progression running, the current ICPT (5.1.0) can do but you may need to change two keynotes for the next pair. I will add some codes to either automatically catch the pair names (so you don't need to touch computer for the next pair) and/or reduce to one touch. I expect to upgrade it soon (a minor one) if I don't get caught too much in other duties.

Bill

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Thanks, Bill. I was asking about your preferred sequence to try to get an insight in how you constructed your app. I was surprised to see that you used the circle of 5ths when getting input for calculating stretch instead of sampling the notes chromatically. That would be simpler for many tuners, especially ones that rely on the RBIs (3rds and 6ths) rather than the SBIs (4ths and 5ths).

My preferred sequence is one that corrects itself through iterations. For instance, consider just the notes within a 5th, F to C. If all the minor thirds (m3s) are progressive but have nearly the same beat speed, the M3s will also be progressive, but be too progressive with F-A too slow and G#-C too fast. And visa versa. This is one of many things I's like to verify with your app.

But this sequence within a 5th might only be used by me. The most popular ones involve contiguous major thirds, so your app might work well for that if there was a way to easily get the beatrates of F3-A3, A3-C#4, C#4-F4 and F4-A4 while tuning from one note to the next and back and forth.

Is this the kind of input you were looking for?


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What would it take in terms of time and money to get this ported to an Android version?

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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
...

For instance, consider just the notes within a 5th, F to C. If all the minor thirds (m3s) are progressive but have nearly the same beat speed, the M3s will also be progressive, but be too progressive with F-A too slow and G#-C too fast. And visa versa.

...

Uh, I am not so sure. I may have posted without thinking it completely through...


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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
...

For instance, consider just the notes within a 5th, F to C. If all the minor thirds (m3s) are progressive but have nearly the same beat speed, the M3s will also be progressive, but be too progressive with F-A too slow and G#-C too fast. And visa versa.

...

Uh, I am not so sure. I may have posted without thinking it completely through...

OK, I looked things over and I was correct. If within a 5th the m3s are barely progressive, the M3s will be overly progressive and visa versa. Probably the same for intervals larger than a 5th, but regardless of the size of the interval you try this within, you can't go far without screwed up the SBIs.

Some may be scratching their head and saying, "Uh, so what?" It has to do with the sequence I use just within a 5th (very successfully) and the fatal error aural sequences have in general: How do you get the correct beatrate for both the 4ths and the 5ths within an octave? I mean without going back and forth like searching for garden worms with a flashlight at night. But starting with a given 5th, and making the three 4ths beat the same speed (any error for them not actually being progressive is insignificant) the resulting beatrate progressions of the RBIs will indicate if the 4ths need to be adjusted and in which direction. I don't think this would work if errors making the m3s less progressive caused the same thing to happen to the M3s.

Of course there is much more to it, like how to get the proper 5th. (Hint: P12 & 4:2 octave)


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Bill, I looked through the operating manual and have a question. When the app displays a beatrate of a played interval, is it the result of directly measuring the change in amplitude of the combined nearly coincident partials (as the human ear hears it), or is it the result of a calculation regarding the difference in the frequency of the two nearly coincident partials (same as if the notes were played separately and then calculated) ?


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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Thanks, Bill. I was asking about your preferred sequence to try to get an insight in how you constructed your app. I was surprised to see that you used the circle of 5ths when getting input for calculating stretch instead of sampling the notes chromatically. That would be simpler for many tuners, especially ones that rely on the RBIs (3rds and 6ths) rather than the SBIs (4ths and 5ths).

My preferred sequence is one that corrects itself through iterations. For instance, consider just the notes within a 5th, F to C. If all the minor thirds (m3s) are progressive but have nearly the same beat speed, the M3s will also be progressive, but be too progressive with F-A too slow and G#-C too fast. And visa versa. This is one of many things I's like to verify with your app.

But this sequence within a 5th might only be used by me. The most popular ones involve contiguous major thirds, so your app might work well for that if there was a way to easily get the beatrates of F3-A3, A3-C#4, C#4-F4 and F4-A4 while tuning from one note to the next and back and forth.

Is this the kind of input you were looking for?

Jeff, yes those are very helpful. I will go through your words again when I add the codes. So far I think about adding the following pairs for the beat progression run. If I miss any, please let me know.

Octave 2:1 Octave Exact
Major sixth 5:3 Two octaves and major third Wide
Minor sixth 8:5 Three octaves Narrow
Perfect fifth 3:2 Octave and fifth Slightly narrow
Perfect fourth 4:3 Two octaves Slightly wide
Major third 5:4 Two octaves and major third Wide
Minor third 6:5 Two octaves and fifth Narrow
Unison 1:1 Unison Exact

BTW, if you have a moment to write out your typical tuning steps (and mark where you wish to use ETD), I may be able to add more functions to assist your tuning.

Thank you.

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Originally Posted by OE1FEU
What would it take in terms of time and money to get this ported to an Android version?

After I finish the beat progression update for Windows 10, I plan to design a simpler version for Android. Money is not an issue. But there is no time table yet.

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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Bill, I looked through the operating manual and have a question. When the app displays a beatrate of a played interval, is it the result of directly measuring the change in amplitude of the combined nearly coincident partials (as the human ear hears it), or is it the result of a calculation regarding the difference in the frequency of the two nearly coincident partials (same as if the notes were played separately and then calculated) ?

Jeff, it is the latter. When the beating pair are not too close in frequency (pitch), the separately calculated one should be the same as what is heard. Note when the two partials are too close as in the case of unison, the two strings may couple together in vibration, meaning the actual sound frequency may be different from any of the partials played separately. Although we are not concerned too much as unison can be tuned easier with ear and/or the sound wave, and non-union pair are unlikely too close in frequency when tuned.

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Originally Posted by Bill-ICPT
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Bill, I looked through the operating manual and have a question. When the app displays a beatrate of a played interval, is it the result of directly measuring the change in amplitude of the combined nearly coincident partials (as the human ear hears it), or is it the result of a calculation regarding the difference in the frequency of the two nearly coincident partials (same as if the notes were played separately and then calculated) ?

Jeff, it is the latter. When the beating pair are not too close in frequency (pitch), the separately calculated one should be the same as what is heard. Note when the two partials are too close as in the case of unison, the two strings may couple together in vibration, meaning the actual sound frequency may be different from any of the partials played separately. Although we are not concerned too much as unison can be tuned easier with ear and/or the sound wave, and non-union pair are unlikely too close in frequency when tuned.

I see, thanks. The reason I asked was if it was the former, just inputing the note-name of the nearly coincident partial (like A6) would be all that is needed. OK, that's not the case.

I take it that the app cannot automatically determine which two notes are being played in an interval, that it must be explicitly told. Yet it can automatically determine which note when one single note is played, and display pitch information. It would be tiresome to need to manually reselect the notes of the intervals that you want the beatrate for while tuning. Would it be feasible to have a mode where if two notes were played separately within a few seconds, the app would then display the beatrate for that interval, when both notes are played together, until the interval is reset by playing two other notes separately within a few seconds? This would be a mode selected manually by the tuner.


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Originally Posted by Bill-ICPT
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Thanks, Bill. I was asking about your preferred sequence to try to get an insight in how you constructed your app. I was surprised to see that you used the circle of 5ths when getting input for calculating stretch instead of sampling the notes chromatically. That would be simpler for many tuners, especially ones that rely on the RBIs (3rds and 6ths) rather than the SBIs (4ths and 5ths).

My preferred sequence is one that corrects itself through iterations. For instance, consider just the notes within a 5th, F to C. If all the minor thirds (m3s) are progressive but have nearly the same beat speed, the M3s will also be progressive, but be too progressive with F-A too slow and G#-C too fast. And visa versa. This is one of many things I's like to verify with your app.

But this sequence within a 5th might only be used by me. The most popular ones involve contiguous major thirds, so your app might work well for that if there was a way to easily get the beatrates of F3-A3, A3-C#4, C#4-F4 and F4-A4 while tuning from one note to the next and back and forth.

Is this the kind of input you were looking for?

Jeff, yes those are very helpful. I will go through your words again when I add the codes. So far I think about adding the following pairs for the beat progression run. If I miss any, please let me know.

Octave 2:1 Octave Exact
Major sixth 5:3 Two octaves and major third Wide
Minor sixth 8:5 Three octaves Narrow
Perfect fifth 3:2 Octave and fifth Slightly narrow
Perfect fourth 4:3 Two octaves Slightly wide
Major third 5:4 Two octaves and major third Wide
Minor third 6:5 Two octaves and fifth Narrow
Unison 1:1 Unison Exact

BTW, if you have a moment to write out your typical tuning steps (and mark where you wish to use ETD), I may be able to add more functions to assist your tuning.

Thank you.

Bill

Here's my sequence. Apologize for any typos.

If you analyze what happens if the beatrate of the P4 is in error, say 1 cent, the error of G3-A#3 will be twice that @ 2 cents, but the error of F#3 and B3 are likely to be half that @ 1/2 cent. Proceeding further, the error of G#3 and A3 are likely to be only half that again @ 1/4 cent. Then when comparing G3-A#3 m3 to the other m3s, any error of the P4s is "magnified" and easily determined. Gotta say that it does require a good ear for beatrates and especially for beatrate progressions. These skills can be assisted by a device that displays beatrates, such as your app. smile I look forward to trying it, but need to get a better mic first.

C5 to pitch
Check with M17/M17 test using G#2
F3 to C5 pure 12th
Check P12 with M6/M17 test using G#2
C4 to C5 best sounding octave
Check F3-C4 P5 with M6/M10 test using G#2
G3 to C4 P4 ~1bps
A#3 to F3 P4 ~1bps
Sanity check G3-A#3 ~11bps
F#3 to A#3 ~7bps, just to get started
B3 to F#3 P4 ~1bps
Check progression of F#3-A#3 M3, G3-B3 M3
Adjust F#3-B3 P4 up or down for proper M3 progression
**NOTE** All three P4s MUST have identical beatrates
G#3 to F3 and B3 for contiguous m3s (cm3s)
A3 to F3 and C4 for cm3s
Check progression of m3s
If G3-A#3 m3 beats too fast, P4s also beat too fast
Or if G3-A#3 m3 beats too slow, P4s also beat too slow
Retune P4s if needed
**NOTE** All three P4s MUST have identical beatrates
Retune G#3 and A3 if needed
Check progression of M3s
If F3-A3 M3 is too slow and G#3-C4 M3 is too fast
then retune F#3-B3 higher
Or if F3-A3 M3 is too fast and G#3-C4 M3 is too slow
then retune F#3-B3 lower
**NOTE** All three P4s MUST have identical beatrates
Retune G#3 and A3 if needed
Rinse and repeat if needed

Expand temperament by tuning:
C#4 to G#3 P4 temporarily pure
Listen to beatrate of F#3 to to C#4
Raise C#4 to half the beatrate
Check F#3-C#4 P5 beats slower than G#3-C#4 P4
If the P4 and P5 beat too fast, then F#3-G#3 is too narrow
Or if the P4 and P5 beat too slow, then F#3-G#3 is too wide
Continue expanding temperament in like manner
Check F4 to A#3 and C5 for contiguous P5s (CP5s)
Check G4 to D3 and C5 for contiguous P4s (CP4s)

Ugh, enough for now!!!


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That's awesome, Jeff. Thank you!

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Ooops, made a typo:

Check progression of m3s
If G3-A#3 m3 beats too fast, P4s also beat too fast beat too slow
Or if G3-A#3 m3 beats too slow, P4s also beat too slow beat too fast
Retune P4s if needed


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I'll be away from the internet for a number of days (Ahhh...), so don't think I am ignoring this Topic. I'll make replies when I return from the "real" world.


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Got a mic, will order app today, if I can figure out how.


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Got the app, but am just using the beatrate function right now. Wanted to compare the results using my ear and using the app. Have to admit it did improve what I was listening for in the m3s. I can see it being a good tool for ear training and experimentation. Here are the resulting beatrates on a Charles Walter Console with F3-C4 P5 tuned pure:

Interval.......1st Aural.......App.......2nd Aural

F-B.............#####........11.9......11.9
F#-C...........#####........12.1......12.2

F-A#...........01.2.............01.1.......01.0
F#-B...........01.8.............01.0.......01.2
G-C............00.9..............00.7.......01.1

F-A.............07.0.............07.5.......06.5
F#-A#.........07.6.............07.2.......07.2
G-B............08.0..............07.6.......07.7
G#-C...........08.8.............07.9.......07.8

F-G#............09.9.............09.0.......08.6
F#-A............10.9.............10.5.......11.2
G-A#...........10.6..............11.0.......11.0
G#-B...........10.5.............12.2.......12.2
A-C..............11.8.............12.0.......11.0

Not sure what to think about some of the results. Like the first aural had the worst 4ths, but the best RBIs. And the second Aural had the best 4ths, the worst RBIs. Pointing towards just enough of a scaling jump somewhere, but maybe not. Maybe one of you fine folks can show where corrections might be made. smile

Oh, and what may be the limiting factor is the rendering - high friction.


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I see the error now in the 2nd aural attempt. A should be higher and G# lower. Not a scaling problem, just gotta work on hearing the minor 3rds. This sequence requires that.


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Jeff,

Get yourself some CBL from Jon Page. It really helps the rendering issues. I don't know how I lived without it so many years.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor


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Originally Posted by P W Grey
Jeff,

Get yourself some CBL from Jon Page. It really helps the rendering issues. I don't know how I lived without it so many years.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

Thanks, I've used some before and didn't find it worth the trouble. In this case it is not any sort of corrosion, where lubes can shine, it is high pressure bar angle. It's my personal piano and long ago I eased up on the pressure bar, but it could still use some more.

Not sure if I missed the error while tuning, or things slipped, (as they occasionally do with such pinblock/rendering combinations) by the time I recorded the beatrates.

Mostly it was to verify the tuning sequence with an objective look at the beatrates. I am satisfied it is rock-solid, but still takes some skill. The strong point is that with each step, the newly tuned notes have less and less error. This is far different than taking a guess and seeing how it turns out later, then making adjustments and trying all over again, or getting in the ball park and fixing things as you go. Instead, if the initial errors are small enough, you need only fix those because the later notes have been largely self-corrected, usually to the the ability of a tuner to either perceive the errors or deal with the pinblock/rendering.

The challenging part is tuning the middle note of the Cm3s, knowing what the proper progression sounds like. And also, for me, setting the pin on an RBI is different than doing so on an SBI. I don't hear that subtle change as a string renders as easily. Still much better, if you ask me, than working on a ladder of CM3 spanning a 10th. All those notes and only one is fixed. In the case of my Cm3s, the outer notes are already tuned and only the middle is adjusted. (F-G#-B and F#-A-C)


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Automatic beat progression measurement when playing two strings together,


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