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Originally Posted by LJC
I disagree. Steinway's go up in price three percent a year so affording one is always a moving target. [...]


The price of just about everything, new, goes up a certain percentage each year, not just pianos, and other pianos as well as Steinway. That doesn't mean, however, that the Steinway you bought ten years ago is going to be worth 10 x 3% more than what you may have paid for it in 2006. A new Steinwhatever may cost that much more than it did ten years ago, but the old one purchased the same year has not appreciated that much over time; with wear and tear and general use, it has most likely depreciated.

In spite of Steinway's hype, pianos are not an investment until, of course, you consider what you get out of having the pleasure of owning and playing one.

Regards,


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I think thats what he (or she) meant by they go up every year by 3%, every year a new piano goes up by 3 percent. Not every year, the piano you bought will appreciate by 3%. Another point, yes most things go up in price as time goes on as an effect of inflation. But if you look at 3% increase on a gallon of milk (btw on most goods it's usually closer to 1.5-2% on little things like groceries, but that's a trivial piece of info there) it's only pennies on the dollar. But a 3% increase on a $100,000(+) piano is 3 thousand dollars. I guess proportionally it' s the same, but the bigger the price, the more significant the price increase.

So I totally get where you both are coming from. But I think the best thing for me is to just save up for maybe another 6 months and see where that gets me. I told the rep at steinway to give me a call the first week of January and we can see where I'm at from there. I figured by then I'd have my project car sold (I have a 1966 VW I'm restoring and I'm very close to being finished) and also if I can live cheaply until then (which isn't as bad as I thought it'd be) I'll have maybe another 15k to throw at a piano depending on what I get for my car maybe even more. So for now that's the game plan unless something comes up that's a smoking deal I can't refuse. Thanks again guys, I wasn't expecting so much attention to my first post!

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Hey Bruce, I never said anything about an investment. Just that the longer you wait to buy an S&S the more money you have to save to buy the same model new and it does make the used ones more expensive as well. In other words the best time to buy was yesterday.

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The best piano to retain value over time has proven to be a finely rebuilt Steinway that is procured outside of the high overhead pricing structure of Steinway and Sons.

The kicker here is "finely rebuilt". Very few rebuilt Steinway's pass this test. And some of the ones that fail are rebuilt with a serious attempt to "stay original". Most that fail are rebuilt with inadequate attention to all the significant elements. Many rebuilders are very good at cosmetics but much less so at deriving maximum tone and touch response. Some of the reasons a rebuilt Steinway is mediocre are the same reason some of the new ones are: there is a fault or faults that need correcting, and the rebuilder and factory both missed it.

The reason well rebuilt Steinway's retain the highest value is much of the market for them is set by serious pianists who are more difficult to fool.


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Logan, your first post has aroused some wonderful discussion here - so, many thanks to you! "Investment in yourself" is a nice phrase, and I get it. As others have stated, it is also marvelous that you have managed to save a tidy sum while in college. That's almost a wild concept, assuming you are in the USA. Bravo!

There's no telling where you will be professionally in five or ten years. It may very well not be in music at all, no matter how much music seems to speak to you at present.

My advice is simply to start playing lots of pianos that are for sale, to refine your taste and knowledge of the market. New and used, upright and grand, but concentrate on used grands. Your search should take you far beyond a single local Steinway dealership run by a fellow you know well. You should be visiting all the reputable piano dealers in your region, all the piano rebuilding shops in your region, and also meeting individuals selling privately as well. You might even want to travel. A search like yours could take six to twelve months perhaps, and be lots of fun. You'll meet some wonderful folks, like the people on this board.

I'd be surprised if you can't fall in love with a fine used grand, and "invest in yourself" - for $10,000 to $15,000. The decal on the fallboard would likely not read "Steinway," though.

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"The best piano to retain value over time has proven to be a finely rebuilt Steinway that is procured outside of the high overhead pricing structure of Steinway and Sons. "

I've played some great S&S new pianos and rebuilds. Seems to me a nice S&S rebuild would have more value since you can be confident it was rebuilt correctly.

As for playing lots of pianos before buying....who could argue with that. I have seem a few S&S's that were priced to sell quick for reasons other than it wasn't a good piano.

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Originally Posted by LJC
"The best piano to retain value over time has proven to be a finely rebuilt Steinway that is procured outside of the high overhead pricing structure of Steinway and Sons. "

I've played some great S&S new pianos and rebuilds. Seems to me a nice S&S rebuild would have more value since you can be confident it was rebuilt correctly.

As for playing lots of pianos before buying....who could argue with that. I have seem a few S&S's that were priced to sell quick for reasons other than it wasn't a good piano.


You two sound like a sales person for Steinway and a piano rebuilder who sells rebuilt Steinways. I'm appalled you'd give advice like that to a college kid, especially one you know nothing about.

Logan,
The best $$ investment pianos for players (meaning not rebuilders), are the ones you buy for $300 from someone who has no room for it, move yourself, and sell for $250 a few years later. The second best investment piano is one you buy from a PRIVATE seller who is moving and needs to sell their piano quickly. I would have sold my 10 year old M&H AA for 22, and it was in almost mint condition. The dealer sold it for more than 10k more than that after buffing the finish and tuning it. Dealers and rebuilders have to make a living, so I understand they want you to believe you're making a good financial investment, but you aren't.

I think going into any debt for a grand piano is a horrible idea for any young college student. Unless you're the unusual older adult who went to college late, you need to keep some freedom. Freedom from debt is great, but freedom to move into the 1 bedroom studio apt for the amazing job opportunity is also important. Freedom to take a 6 month internship in China and then move to a tiny apartment in SF, or Chicago, or Seattle ... . Freedom to move again to a job 1 hour awy without paying a piano mover $800 to move the grand piano you aren't even allowed to play after 6pm in your 1 bedroom studio or the 2 bedroom apartment you and your significant other are moving to.

If you want a great deal on a piano, watch craigslist for 6 or 8 months and make some low ball offers. If you don't like uprights, consider a smaller grand. It won't sound like a Steinway B, but a 5'1" Kawai RX1 for say 7 grand would be a better move(r) I think, and a reasonable investment in yourself.

Where are you living now that you want a nearly 7' grand, and after graduation, are you staying there?

Todd


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Well Todd its just as good as your advice since you don't know him either. Maybe he can pay for it and if he can't he's a big boy now and can make that decision for himself. He doesn't need you or me to tell him what to do but if he wants an S&S bad enough he might be able to swing it and get many years of enjoyment out of it. I suppose you would have him buy a piece of junk car instead of one that he had to take a loan for. Those cheap things often cost more in the long run since you have to fix them all the time.

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Originally Posted by LJC
Well Todd its just as good as your advice since you don't know him either. Maybe he can pay for it and if he can't he's a big boy now and can make that decision for himself. He doesn't need you or me to tell him what to do but if he wants an S&S bad enough he might be able to swing it and get many years of enjoyment out of it. I suppose you would have him buy a piece of junk car instead of one that he had to take a loan for. Those cheap things often cost more in the long run since you have to fix them all the time.


The hidden message here seems to be that Steinway is the only instrument the OP will "get many years of enjoyment out of...", and that everything else is "junk", which we all know is patently false.

Regards,


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Don't put words in my mouth Bruce, I never said everything else is junk nor would I.

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Originally Posted by LJC
Well Todd its just as good as your advice since you don't know him either. Maybe he can pay for it and if he can't he's a big boy now and can make that decision for himself. He doesn't need you or me to tell him what to do but if he wants an S&S bad enough he might be able to swing it and get many years of enjoyment out of it. I suppose you would have him buy a piece of junk car instead of one that he had to take a loan for. Those cheap things often cost more in the long run since you have to fix them all the time.


Not sure why you'd go with a piece of junk car analogy. Are you saying Kawai pianos are junk? But if we're going to use the car analogy, is the grand piano equivalent an SUV.

If so, it seems likely you'd advise him to buy a new Cadillac Escalade, and soon since they're just going to get more expensive. And of course if he decides to go used, he should only consider buying one from a Cadillac dealer since they use original GM parts and he can be sure it's been repaired well.

I on the other hand would probably suggest he consider a used Honda CRV or a Subaru Forester, or some other reliable SUV, and explain why I think the Escalade is a waste of money for a college kid.







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Yeah Todd, tell him to buy what you like because whatever it is its cheaper than what he wants.

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Was my SUV example too close a parallel to your habit of encouraging people to buy Steinways, LJC? Between the two of us, you're obviously the one who consistently recommends what they like or own.

I on the other hand recommend people think about details and options, and don't get caught up in supporting a single brand like you usually do.

The last SUV I bought was actually a Volvo XC60 for my daughter. It wasn't a CRV or Forester, but I did research both of those too.

You like to use the word cheaper, and not less expensive. Why is that? Is it because it's more derogatory?

Cheers,
Todd


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Todd you just recommend cheaper stuff.

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There it is again LOL, "cheaper". You sound just like Steinway's sales people.

I've recommended people consider Steingraeber and Bosendorfer more than I've recommended Steinway too. Are they also "cheaper" brands? smile


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Thanks for the great discussions guys. Let's see how many topics I can address in one post:

before I begin y'all must know there are a few things I cannot say without sounding like a ****. I'm not trying to, I promise. I really appreciate all the great input on the matter, it's more valuable to me than you guys will ever know.

Okay let's begin.

As for debt, I go to community college currently and only pay 220 a month for a full college schedule, and that's to have each semester paid before it ends. In other words when I leave community college I will be debt-free. Now, I plan on going to either university or conservatory or whatever after that, which means I know I'lll have to pay a little more later on. So personally I can afford the debt, but I'm really uncomfortable with it. There are too many what-ifs in my mind and countless little concerns that make me afraid to go into debt for a piano regardless of practicality.

As for size, Right now, I live in 3 bedroom house with my legal guardian, and we do have room for a 7' grand. I know we have room for one since we have a 5 person bar in our living room we're trying to get rid of that is about the same length as a model B, and about as wide and we've got room to spare in the living room still since all we have there is a TV, 2 couches and a coffee table. If my piano teacher can fit a 9' Baldwin and a 6' baldwin in the same size living room I figure I can fit a 7' grand. As far as paying for said piano: I work 2 jobs and without disclosing too much I'll just say that I make more than state minimum wage one both. I have enough left over after putting about 20% in savings, paying for car insurance, and phone bills, and then after spending money with friends, I have enough left over to make payments on a grand if I financed a few thousand. I just have this list of what-if's which is why i don't want to. Post graduation, I'll probably move into an apartment either a 1 bed or studio. And I am perfectly fine with a grand taking up 1/3 of my living space. We used to live in a small scottsdale 2 bedroom apartment with our grand in the living room, so I'm used to knowing what it's like to have an instrument take up a large portion of your living space hahaha. if that's what it comes down to then I'm okay with that... To a certain extent. I have a piano stencil here I kinds made myself I took to a few apartments when I was looking for my own apartment about 2 months ago. The most I am comfortable with in an apartment (fully furnished) is around 7'. I cannot deal with a full concert grand in a small apartment. But the whole living arrangement is something I have carefully considered. It'll still be a squeeze.

Why a 7'? Good question. I don't really know to be honest. Out of all the grands I have played I notice a recurring theme in the ones I'm partial to. For some reason I really gravitate to grands around 6.5' to 7'. Couldn't tell you why though. That doesn't mean that I'm opposed to the idea of a smaller grand.

Here's my thing with uprights. I hate them. With a passion. Ever since I was a boy I would rather play on our old Lyon and Healy from the late 19th century/ early 20th which always was in need of tuning and an action regulation than the nicest Bosendorfer upright. I hate them. I hate the way they sound. I hate the way they feel. I hate the way they look. No disrespect to any people who own uprights or people who love them. Just for me personally, an upright is not happening. Ever. I'd sooner own a cheap casio keyboard from Costco (which is what I've got now)

I've seen this a couple times: Why a S&S? Like I said I naturally want the nicest piano I can afford. Steinway and Bosendorfer are known to be the worlds best piano brands (opinionated) I'm personally not a huge fan of the Bosendorfer sound. I've been down to the local dealer and played on a few, and 70-80% of the ones I played I was really not that into them. It's always been a problem with the sound and I can not quite put my finger on what it is. There are a few Bosendorfers I have absolutely fallen in love with (but alas... the price tag... 'nuff said) Now I've played quite a few steinways and I really enjoy the versatility of the sound and action. The actions on good steinways seem to be very personable. They're quick to return and they go from ppp to fff with incredible ease and with incredible dynamic and tonal extremities on both ends. Now that is a blanket statement on both. It's a personal preference, and I find that the steinway action is really comfortable for me to play. Now I've played a few steinways I have not liked at all. I've played a few I loved. Ive played a bunch of Bosendorfers I didn't like. And a few I loved. In fact I recall even one specific Yamaha I once played and I'm not sure of the length. High 7' / low 8' range I would have chosen over a plethora of steinways and bosendorfers. But that was one piano that I couldn't afford. So I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm putting a blanket statement on piano brands when I say I like Steinways when I say I want a steinway. If the price, action quality, and sound quality is right I would buy any other brand just as easily. But I'm just saying I think it's more likely the piano I really want will be a steinway when the time comes. I'm not saying any other piano brand or type is junk, it's just a personal preference. I truly believe steinway is the best piano brand on the market. I'm not saying it's worth the price sticker on it. But if that's the price I have to pay for a piano I love, then so be it.

Now 2 questions: First question is on piano store etiquette. Everyone here says it's good to play as many pianos as possible, but personally I hate going into the same piano store numerous times in a row and playing all their pianos and not buying one. I mean, the salesman Jim at the local Piano Gallery knows my situation and how much I want to spend, and he always says and acts like he doesn't mind me coming in and playing the pianos, but I feel like me going in there and playing the pianos and deciding the ones I like are out of my price range is being a nuisance. I've been in there 3 times and have yet to find something in my price range I was really thrilled with. I feel like I'm expected to have my mind made up after a visit or two but for me personally that's not the case. Am I overreacting or (any retailers out there?) do you guys really hate it when someone comes in and plays the pianos and doesn't buy one after like 2 or 3 visits?

I forgot my second question but I'll post it if I think of it.

And once again guys I REALLY appreciate all the attention this thread has been getting. I mean I really feel like every time I come on here I am more prepared to look for a suitable piano and many people on here have raised questions, comments, and concerns I never thought of. Thanks guys! Keep the discussion coming!

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Todd, I see where you are coming from. I need to pick something that fits my financial capabilities that does what I need it to do. I totally get that. At the same time, suppose you are financially in a position to buy a brand new escalade. I'm gonna use my grandpa's best friend as an example. A doctor named Justin. He bought a brand new BMW M3 from the factory. Wrote a check for it and had it delivered to his front door a month or two later once it was made to his specifications. Now he could have bought a CRV or a used honda civic but he didn't. Why? Because he didn't have to. To a lot of people it's a waste of money because he doesn't race professionally or anything. But bottom line: It's something he enjoys and something he can grow with. A car he'll own for the rest of his life (he's already had it 4 years and doesn't plan on giving it up soon) It is not by any means a good financial investment. He bought it because he could afford it and was extremely happy with it. Even if it broke the bank.

That's where I'm coming from and I think that's where LJC is coming from too. If I can afford a really friggin' nice piano, then why can't I buy a really friggin' nice piano? Yes, a used Kawai is the financially wise option. Or your CRV/used honda. But for something I'll probably own half my lifetime, I'd much rather buy a really high quality steinway that I'll be more than happy with. Buying a piano you're not thrilled with because it's a financially wiser decision is no fun smile and there's no logic that will prove either side of this discussion, it's all based on personal opinion. There are MLB baseball players and NFL players that drive 1980's and 90's pickup trucks with faded paint jobs. But there are also the same kind of people that drive Bugatti Veyrons. It takes two different mindsets. The guy that drives a 1995 ford is probably just as happy as the guy who drives the new Bugatti. Neither person is right or wrong. I guess what I'm trying to say is that LJC and I are the guys that buy the Veyron and you're the guy that buys the Ford. There's nothing wrong with either one.

Okay Maybe that's a really extreme analogy. a better analogy would probably be a new Acura vs a new Mercedes instead of an ld ford vs the veyron but you guys get the point. And like I said I'm not at all opposed to the idea of buying a 'cheaper' or 'less expensive' piano. Price tag will not necessarily reflect how I feel about it. I just personally really like steinways.

Best wishes,
Logan.

... or as my teacher would say - "love, peace, and hair grease" but online that makes me sound like a flower child haha. Thanks guys.

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With regards to the sentiment of potentially abusing a dealers hospitality, I get the feeling, I think it is normal to have, but unnecessary. You are trying to make up your mind. You are going to spend a lot of money, so that is totally valid.

Do they like families better that buy a 10k piano for the little prodigy after a two hours sales show? Probably. But as long as you are not wasting their time by occupying staff for hour, I don't see why you should not spend all the time you need.

When I visit a piano shop, I try to make plain that I am still in the discovery phase. Then they can decide if they want to leave me alone or anyway try to sell me something on the spot. You meet all kinds.


Kawai CN35. Daughter wanted a piano, so we got one. Now who'll learn faster? ;-)
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You could just ask Jim at the Piano Gallery to alert you when he takes in any grand in your price range. It seems clear that at present you aren't smitten with anything at his store, so I understand your reluctance to keep dropping in. But he probably doesn't mind, assuming he appreciates pianos and pianists.

In fact, I'd go further and say that any piano salesperson would be impressed with your serious shopping and deliberation, knowing you are buying this expensive item on your own as a young person still in school. It *is* impressive, Logan.

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I understand this is Piano World and my idea may not be popular here, but thought I'd throw this out. We recently looked at upgrading our child's cello and asked the teacher what price range to consider, $5-10k, $10-15k, $15-20k, >$20k. She looked at our piano and said cellos (string instruments) are not like pianos. Cellos are like houses, which can grow in value if taken care of and if started with a solid foundation (high quality). Pianos are like cars, generally losing value even if maintained well.

We then visited the string instrument dealer and he talked to us a bit about price ranges, instrument quality, and value. I have since been investigating investment quality musical instruments and think it is an interesting idea. But to get into true investment quality musical instruments, these would require provenance, appraisals, and substantial insurance.

I realize the OP considers the "investment" as investing in himself. That is admirable, but I agree with others and think he consider other brands and configurations.

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