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Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
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Originally Posted by Jason74
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Confirmation bias is why reviews by owners should not be given too much weight.

Vested interest bias is why reviews by dealers(most, with a few notable exceptions) should not be given too much weight. Has there been a single dealer post out the many millions of PW posts that said something less than positive about a piano they sell? IMO the more a dealer talks about the piano(s) he sells, the less weight their opinion should carry.


You know, I'm not so sure about the bit I put in bold. There have been a few cases on here of people buying a piano and having "buyers remorse" afterwards, and a number have talked honestly both about what they like and don't like about the pianos they have bought. That kind of info from people who actually use pianos regularly can imho be really helpful, and be really useful as part of a buying process. Of course, a simple "my piano is great" doesn't help much, but I think a more considered "I love my piano because" can be really helpful even if you have to adjust a bit for the inevitable confirmation bias.

But the bit in italics. Yes, I'd wholeheartedly agree with that one, and in my own search disregarded at least one dealer largely because of this.


Surely posts by people with buyer's remorse (or worse) are just as suspect as posts from people one believes are simply trying to affirm their (often expensive) choices. Actually, the occasional "I screwed up, this isn't a good piano" stories may be even less reliable since they are outliers.

All reviews must be read carefully, and weighed for the logic and evidence offered.

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Originally Posted by Steve Cohen
My very well-seasoned experience leads me to the conclusion that the overwhelming percentage of reviews and comments are confrontational bias.


Haha! That's the internet!


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Originally Posted by Steve Cohen
My very well-seasoned experience leads me to the conclusion that the overwhelming percentage of reviews and comments are confrontational bias.
Could you explain a little more what you mean by confrontational bias?

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One of the greatest sources of confirmation bias in pianos is price. There are less expensive pianos that outperform more expensive but it is not unusual for a client to dismiss a less expensive piano based on its price rather than its actual performance.


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The buyer's remorse stories could mostly be summarized as "somebody please tell me something about acoustic sound treatment."

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Originally Posted by Keith D Kerman
One of the greatest sources of confirmation bias in pianos is price. There are less expensive pianos that outperform more expensive but it is not unusual for a client to dismiss a less expensive piano based on its price rather than its actual performance.


In your view, what are some of the less expensive pianos that are better than their more expensive counterparts?

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Quote
One of the greatest sources of confirmation bias in pianos is price. There are less expensive pianos that outperform more expensive but it is not unusual for a client to dismiss a less expensive piano based on its price rather than its actual performance.


Absolutely correct.

It's where a lot of back-biting comes from...

Norbert


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Funny you mention that. When I had my first piano in elementary school, I grew very attached to it. It was a used piano, and I can't even remember the brand. Then my parents got me a brand new Yamaha U series, I must have been like 8? When I first played it, I didn't like it! And I told my parents so...Believe it or not. My parents said, O_O this is a much nicer piano! It is brand new and much more expensive. So I gave it another go. Confirmation bias? Not sure. It still took me a few days to get used to it I think.. I just wasn't used to the sound and action. But over time, I grew to like it. Now I'm not so sure what I would think of my first piano if you brought it to me again.

Last edited by hello my name is; 09/01/16 01:53 AM.

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In the world of computers you often come up against user camps who argue that their (browser, operating system, whatever) is the "best". My own take on it is that the one you should use should be the one that you know best or have developed a preference for, regardless of specs. If it gets the job done to your satisfaction, then that one is the best one for you, and there is no need to win over the users of a different product. Sure, you can explain *why* you have a preference for so and so, but that is your user experience, not an absolute truth. Pianos are similar, where we tend to develop a particular relationship with the one we first knew, or paid a lot of money for...or hated because of some problem with it. We all know people who might have had a car they had problems with and that keep saying that that brand is "all junk", even if that bad car was from 30 years ago. That's confirmation bias. It's hard to be totally objective with something we develop an intimate working relationship with, such as a piano.

This is why when the question comes up about choosing between pianos, I find that the best advice is to tell the person to go try them out in person and see how it speaks to them.


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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Could you explain a little more what you mean by confrontational bias?

Pianoloverus, I can't speak for Steve, but I'm thinking he meant "confirmation bias" and not "confrontational bias"; but I could be wrong.

I'll share a quick example of "confrontational bias"; working as a technical college instructor, I've had many textbook salespeople call on me over the years. A few years ago, I was visited by a local publisher rep, along with her district sales manager. The district sales manager said because I had not decided to adopt their latest textbook for my program, I did not have my students best interest in mind.

That comment infuriated me. He may as well have reached out and slapped me in the face or punched me in the nose. I tried to restrain my composure and told him that nothing could be further from the truth, and his comment offended me and pushed me further away from adopting his textbook.

The same scenario would be like a piano salesperson telling a piano teacher if they didn't purchase a certain brand they sell, they did not have their student's best interest in mind. That's pure hogwash and a good example of "confrontational bias".

In the world of sales, it takes all kinds. Confrontational bias is one of the worst tactics that can be used, in my view.

Just my .02.

Rick


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I think Steve was making a joke. The district manager may have created an emotional bias against his product, but I'm pretty sure confrontational bias isn't a thing.


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For those wondering what confirmation bias is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias


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Originally Posted by Toddler2
I'm pretty sure confrontational bias isn't a thing.

Sure it is...

Yea, it's a bit different from confirmation bias, but confrontational bias exists, has a definition, in my view, and happens often in the world of business.

Just put the words "confrontational" and "bias" together.

Confrontational: tending to deal with situations in an aggressive way; hostile or argumentative.

Bias: prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair.

Confrontational bias explained...

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Hi Rick,

That link doesn't say anything about "confrontational bias", it's discussing how the direct "confrontation of biased individuals" can decrease bias due to prejudice.

"Confrontation of Bias". We're discussing a type of bias. I searched and can't find a definition or mention of "confrontational bias" online. I really don't think it's a thing.

Best,
Todd


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Pretty sure confrontational bias was a joke and not a thing.. but maybe we can make it a thing.


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Originally Posted by Toddler2
Hi Rick,

That link doesn't say anything about "confrontational bias", it's discussing how the direct "confrontation of biased individuals" can decrease bias due to prejudice.

"Confrontation of Bias". We're discussing a type of bias. I searched and can't find a definition or mention of "confrontational bias" online. I really don't think it's a thing.

Best,
Todd

Okay, Toddler2, no problem and no argument; to each his/her own. You'll get no "confrontational bias" from me. grin

Rick


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Originally Posted by Piano90X
I'm relatively new to participating in this forum, but I've been reading it for years, and I have never seen a comment from someone who spent a significant amount of money on a piano and who later regretted it.


I have. There was the person who bough a NY D, and didn't like it, and struggle for a year or two figuring out what to do. Ended up with a Hamburg D.

There were a few people seeming like they were pulling their hair out (figuratively) with problems with their Estonia.


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I do think pianobuyer guide largely gets it correct in their rankings of pianos.

The important thing to realize is that above a certain level, the differences between pianos are preferences. Some people prefer the Steinway sound over the Bechstein sound, but that doesn't mean it is objectively better, both of those are superior pianos.


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Originally Posted by phacke
There were a few people seeming like they were pulling their hair out (figuratively) with problems with their Estonia.


It sounds like there were some consistent issues with Estonias. What were the problems? Have they since been addressed by the company?

I'm probably going to buy another piano within the next 5 - 10 years, and I'm very curious about this, because I had only heard good things about Estonias ever since Laul took over the company.

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Originally Posted by Piano90X
It sounds like there were some consistent issues with Estonias. What were the problems? Have they since been addressed by the company?

I'm probably going to buy another piano within the next 5 - 10 years, and I'm very curious about this, because I had only heard good things about Estonias ever since Laul took over the company.

You can get a lemon in any brand. What sets a company/manufacturer apart from the others is how they handle that "lemon" on behalf of the buyer/customer. And, it also has a lot to do with the dealer.

Some pianos manufacturers/dealers will leave you hanging and stuck with a lemon; some will do the right thing, no matter how far they have to go (replace the piano with a new one/issue a full refund?).

My advice to a piano shopper would be to research the personality/reputation of the manufacturer and dealer as much as the piano itself.

And, I doubt if there are really any "perfect" pianos out there, or "perfect" dealers.

Just my .02.

Rick


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