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In my ten years of teaching, I've never once dropped a student. It has been my philosophy that no student is beyond hope, and I have kind of looked down at teachers who will only teach "good" students rather than actually helping kids who need more help. I am not saying that was a correct choice; I can be pretty judgmental, and it's not a good look, I know.

Now I'm seriously considering dropping a couple of students. They are beyond frustrating to teach, and I'm at the point where my studio is overfull with a waiting list. I could replace these students with ones who actually want to learn and practice and work with me, and with every passing week I'm becoming more aware of that fact.

So I'm now crawling back to those of you who have done this before. I have a lot of specific questions:

1. Do you warn the parents and/or student that you are going to drop them if something doesn't change? Do you use those exact words? How long after the warning do you go through with it if nothing changes? Or, if you warn them you'll drop them if they don't start practicing, and they do practice for two weeks but then stop and don't for a few weeks, how long do you wait before seeing if the old pattern is just going to continue?

2. When it's time to actually do it, do you talk to the parents by phone or in person? What if they don't typically watch lessons and just wait in the car?

3. Have you ever dropped the student when the parent was a friend of yours? How did it go?

4. Have you ever had luck just raising your rates and hoping these students choose to go elsewhere? That seems passive aggressive, but it just so happens I was planning on raising my rates in September in honor of my having gained 10 years experience.

5. Anything else I should know before I bite the bullet?

Last edited by Brinestone; 07/23/18 12:01 PM.

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Welcome to my world!

Yes, raising rates "significantly" can do the trick for you. Or, if the parents are willing to pay the really high rates, I have no problem with expensive babysitting.

You should fire the students as suddenly as possible. Don't give them advanced warnings. Just say, "I'm done with you. Goodbye!" It's nice to say it in person during the last lesson. Be brief and to-the-point.

I put up with kids whose parents are friends with me. The friendship is more important to me.

The only thing I would caution is that parents do talk to each other. I'm hesitant to fire certain students because they are friends with my other students who are really good. Perhaps I am being paranoid, but I don't want the firing of one student to lead to exodus of a good student.


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I don't think that raising the lesson rate is an appropriate way for trying drop a student; it smacks a little of dishonesty and it may leave you with the same student just paying a higher fee. I think that it's important to be direct with both the student(s) and the parent(s). What would be the point of continuing the lessons unless lessons are paid up in advance?

Teaching should bring, if not joy, at least satisfaction at the interest, growth, and progress of the student. If you are not experiencing that and you know that it is because of the student's inability or lack of application, then it's time to drop the student and move on, particularly since you have a waiting list to get into your studio.

I would try not to worry about a ripple effect or whether or not the parents are friends. This is a business, albeit with a potentially large artistic component, but a business, nevertheless and it should be treated as such.

The only way to save face to a small degree is to underline the fact that the student is not working out well with your method of teaching and express the hope that said student might achieve better results with another teacher.

Regards,


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Originally Posted by Brinestone
In my ten years of teaching, I've never once dropped a student. It has been my philosophy that no student is beyond hope, and I have kind of looked down at teachers who will only teach "good" students rather than actually helping kids who need more help. I am not saying that was a correct choice; I can be pretty judgmental, and it's not a good look, I know.

Now I'm seriously considering dropping a couple of students. They are beyond frustrating to teach, and I'm at the point where my studio is overfull with a waiting list. I could replace these students with ones who actually want to learn and practice and work with me, and with every passing week I'm becoming more aware of that fact.

So I'm now crawling back to those of you who have done this before. I have a lot of specific questions:

1. Do you warn the parents and/or student that you are going to drop them if something doesn't change? Do you use those exact words? How long after the warning do you go through with it if nothing changes? Or, if you warn them you'll drop them if they don't start practicing, and they do practice for two weeks but then stop and don't for a few weeks, how long do you wait before seeing if the old pattern is just going to continue?

2. When it's time to actually do it, do you talk to the parents by phone or in person? What if they don't typically watch lessons and just wait in the car?

3. Have you ever dropped the student when the parent was a friend of yours? How did it go?

4. Have you ever had luck just raising your rates and hoping these students choose to go elsewhere? That seems passive aggressive, but it just so happens I was planning on raising my rates in September in honor of my having gained 10 years experience.

5. Anything else I should know before I bite the bullet?


My answers, and a few additional thoughts, FWIW:

Background: I've never dropped a student, but came close one time. I first called to state the problem and make sure I had full understanding of the situation from their perspective. The mother assured me there was no problem in their ability to comply, but after two additional weeks of non-compliance, I wrote them a letter stating that their child would be dismissed if the problem persisted any longer.

Then they complied, and also gave notice that they were leaving my studio in one month's time.

That's the only time in 30+ years of teaching I'd come that close to dismissing someone.

Now to answer your questions:

1. Yes, I think a warning is in order for most problems. Such acts as violence or abuse, however, are worthy of instant, permanent dismissal, IMHO. As far as using exact words, being clear on your expectations helps in the long run. In the warning letter I mentioned above, I did write, "[Student] will be dismissed from my studio roster if [this problem] isn't resolved..."

How long after the warning do you wait if nothing changes? It depends on the situation. I, personally, put up with little practice longer than I do with no payment from people who have said they can and will pay immediately, and then don't.

2. Between talking by phone or in person, I suppose it depends on which is more comfortable for you, or on which method you think would help the parent be more receptive to what you have to say.

I'll add that you also have the choice of communicating in writing, rather than verbally. Verbal communication lends more of a personable touch, I think, than writing, and it's useful for finding out if there's context you don't know. A letter, though, obviously provides a written record of what exactly was said, if one is concerned that a dismissal will be met with, "You never said that," or various misunderstandings. I think a letter should be a last resort, though, in most cases.

If the parents don't typically come into the lessons, call or email them and ask if there's a different time you could speak to them, outside of the child's presence. (Unless it's an older student who should be in on the discussion, if it's about him/her, like regarding practice, rather than a parental matter, like paying for lessons.)

3. The family I referenced above in my "Background" section were not family friends, so my answer to #3 is no. I will say that that family did get offended by my sending a letter. I tend to be more direct in writing, and more likely to cave on my convictions when speaking verbally. I think they were pretty surprised by my this-is-the-way-it-will-be-if-..." ultimatum. They'd gotten used to yanking me around on other issues previous to that, which I'd have to say I brought on myself, flexing and bending too much to accommodate them in the past. But that's a post for another time...

4. I wouldn't raise rates to try to get anyone to leave. You might lose some good students that way. BTW, you didn't ask, but, on that topic of raising rates, I think modest yearly increases, based on fluctuations in the Consumer Price Index (and adding a little more for your growing experience level) accustoms one's clients to incremental rate changes. Those are better than sudden, probably larger, increases that surprise clients who go many years with no fee raise.

5. Talk to colleagues about their experiences. (Which you're doing here--good choice!) smile

Good luck, Brinestone. I don't envy you the position you're in with those students. It's hard. Stand firm, and be professional and as dispassionate as you can.

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1. I give a warning.

Sometimes people don't catch the gentle promptings and need the "if your progress doesn't change by August 1". I have only had to do this once and the students are still here.

2. I prefer email communication

People like to argue and say you never told them __. With the written word, it makes dealing with that easier (not perfect). I still have X written in my studio, on my site, and say it nearly every lesson and still get "you never said". LOL.

3. NA
4. I don't like the raising rates drop.
If I raise rates, I grandfather the current students in and just raise incoming students. So, that wouldn't work for me.

5. Just tell it like it is (nicely). When a student hits a bad note, they know it so I just address it. Same with the other. They know when something is off, just address it.

You are right when you say "no student is beyond hope" but some just don't care. That is a different issue. Make room for those who care.


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Okay, thanks, everyone.

Just to be clear, I have been raising my rates a bit all along. I did a bigger bump about five years ago because I had been charging peanuts before that, and I didn't lose any students afterward. I have raised rates for new students since then but have kept some of my favorite old families at the five-year-old rate. I think it's time even they paid a bit more per month, but nothing huge.

But obviously the consensus is that my decision to raise rates should not have anything to do with my desire to drop these students. I will go with that.


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Hi Brinestone, congratulations on having had the good fortune to never have to drop a student for 10 years. I've been teaching for almost 20 years, privately and in a music store. The store tends to draw in students whose parents want to shop while the child takes a lesson. Many students, despite repeated reminders (and emphasized in my policy and meet and greet) barely put in one day a week of practice. However, if they do their best in lessons and are respectful, and enjoy their time with me, I stick it out.

Reasons I have dropped students

Consistent rudeness
Never practices, and makes no progress
Parents are rude (demanding makeups when not entitled, etc.)
Chronic absences

I try to discuss student issues with the student, letting them know that I will suggest they transfer to another teacher if, etc.....
In instances of parent issues, usually once I address it with the parent, they drop anyway. And I never regret losing that family.

I agree with Bruce D's entire post. I usually use a version of his last paragraph when letting a student go:

"underline the fact that the student is not working out well with your method of teaching and express the hope that said student might achieve better results with another teacher. "


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I also concur with NMKeys and Andamento's posts, for whatever it's worth. I like Andamento's suggestion to provide a deadline date for improvement.

Last edited by chasingrainbows; 07/23/18 04:49 PM.

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Originally Posted by chasingrainbows
I also concur with NMKeys and Andamento's posts, for whatever it's worth. I like Andamento's suggestion to provide a deadline date for improvement.


In industry, there is no surprise what improvement is needed to kerp your job, as notification of poor performance is provided long before termination. Is this the same with piano lessons?

If not, maybe it should be: define expectations early, if they are not met provide a warning ..... again early in the process. If still not met, provide a deadline with no further chance of correction past the deadline . If problems have been going on for awhile there would be no surprises to the student or the parent if there had been ongoing feedback.

Just a thought from a non teacher


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

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Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by chasingrainbows
I also concur with NMKeys and Andamento's posts, for whatever it's worth. I like Andamento's suggestion to provide a deadline date for improvement.


In industry, there is no surprise what improvement is needed to kerp your job, as notification of poor performance is provided long before termination. Is this the same with piano lessons?

If not, maybe it should be: define expectations early, if they are not met provide a warning ..... again early in the process. If still not met, provide a deadline with no further chance of correction past the deadline . If problems have been going on for awhile there would be no surprises to the student or the parent if there had been ongoing feedback.

Just a thought from a non teacher


I really don't think a child's learning ability/progress should be compared to an adult's job performance. Adults are of the age of majority, have a certain level of maturity and some say in their choices. Kid's don't have the maturity, many don't have a say in taking lessons (some do), and they sure don't have the history and reasoning skills of an adult. You don't want to make them bitter and hate music. They are not disposable.


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I might go for improvement in behaviour that a student can control (practise what you have been assigned to practise, how it was assigned, for a minimum defined amount). I do not agree with improvement in the sense of better quality playing, because that can be out of a student's control. Of course lack of improvement is a result of the missing behaviour (practising) so there is a correlation of sorts. But the anxiety of not being able to be good enough in the next performance in front of the teacher can be counter productive to what you're trying to achieve as a teacher.

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I have been extremely clear about expectations (specifically regarding practice) from day one, and I have reminded these students and their moms many times about what those expectations are with no change in behavior for more than a week at a time. Maybe the week after I talk with their mom, the student may meet 80% of the expectations. The following week, 0% again, continuing for months.

And my expectations are nowhere near unrealistic. The rest of my students meet them or exceed them almost all the time.

One student in particular has started making excuses for why they won't practice the FOLLOWING week. And sometimes their excuses are, "Well, I keep getting distracted by TV and video games." *headdesk*


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Brinestone, how long have you been teaching the students you are thinking of letting go? I really like Gary D.'s policy of accepting a new student on a one month basis before deciding whether or not he will continue teaching the student. I may adopt that policy.


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Originally Posted by Brinestone
One student in particular has started making excuses for why they won't practice the FOLLOWING week. And sometimes their excuses are, "Well, I keep getting distracted by TV and video games." *headdesk*

I have students who didn't practice for a whole week because school had a test every single day, plus a project due on Friday. I'm all for academics, but if these kids take THAT long to study and do projects, they won't survive college. They need a serious class on Time Management.


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I once surprised a youngster and his mother by dropping him. He said, he didn't want to take piano and I said, you will get your wish. This is the last lesson. His mother came with money for the next month and I said he doesn't want piano lessons. I can't teach somebody who doesn't want to be there.

Another time, the student was very talented. For about five years, I did my best despite his lack of practicing. He had every gift needed to be a concert pianist, except for the practicing. Well, the parents were shocked! Such a talented kid! Well, he went to another piano teacher and is still very successful at music as an adult.

Don't worry about it. Drop away. Nothing bad will happen, and most likely something good will happen.

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There should be a thread on excuses given for not practicing. The best one I get is "I had a sleep over." to which I ask with a grin, "the whole week?" Summer is here once again, and half of my students are off on vacation for a month or two. Only a few actually practice more in the summer. The majority of students tell me that they didn't do anything all week-- they don't play outside, or attend camps. What to they do all day long????


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Originally Posted by chasingrainbows
they don't play outside, or attend camps. What to they do all day long????

Video games?

I'm a gamer. When I'm not working and not playing the piano, I'm gaming. And I need my gaming time as much as I need my piano time (I need less gaming than piano time to be happy, but still need both). smile

-

There is a serie of videos (in French) of a teacher sharing anecdotes from his lessons. I've listen to them many times. In the "no practice departement" there were:

- Did you practice this week?

- I don't know (from an adult student).

- No, it was my birthday.
- All week?!

- No, there were sales.

- No, I went to a weading.
- All week?!

- No, I was menstruated.

- I don't like the piano.
- Why do you keep up the lessons then?
- My mom promised me a new console if I continue.

-

When I shared that with one of my teacher, he shared me some anecdote of his own, like a girl who was trying to prove she was able to play something and said "but I've done it once this week!". Succeeding once and thinking you've mastered it... That's the anecdote that I remember the most. This is so naive. laugh

-

On the other hand, my main teacher doesn't believe me when I say I haven't practice enough and that I'm sorry. Last time, he ironised "so you practiced less than your usual 8-hour a day?". Grrrr. Believe me when I say I haven't practiced enough... (that particular week, I had practiced 2x 1,5h. Clearly not much).

-

But I'm noticing that we are getting out of the subject.
I hope the OP has found helping answers in the previous posts. A really interesting discussion, btw.


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Started piano on February 2016.
Pieces I'm working on :
- Rameau, Les Sauvages
- Mozart, K545, 1st mov
- Chopin, nocturne op. posth. in C# minor
- Debussy, Golliwog's cakewalk
- Pozzoli, E.R. 427, etude no. 6
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It's a tough decision either way.

When I was 5 years old, my mother took me to her friend who was a piano teacher. A piano soon appeared in the corner of the living room. We had a few lessons and got as far as playing "Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star". Nothing out of the ordinary what a person at that age should be playing. Mom decided that the talent wasn't there and the lessons stopped. At that time I don't think the piano teacher tried to convince anybody that we all have the talent for music and it is just a matter of practicing regularly. The decision to continue was totally up to us (mom & myself).

A number of years later after working full-time, I picked up piano again and have been playing everyday since. A friend across town got their young son (around age 7) into the Yamaha program for Piano. Like the Suzuki program, a parent is supposed to accompany the child to his/her lessons so that the concepts learned in class can be reinforced at home. At the end of the year the child was on stage for his recital. After playing for about 2 years, the parents have decided the child doesn't have the talent to continue and his last recital was nothing more than making fun of himself in front of the parents. His parents think after 2 years of learning the child's playing is embarrassing. I've never heard him play so have to take his parents' word. The child likes watching cooking shows on TV so his parents thought he would probably be trained as a chef than a pianist.

For somebody who is learning piano as an adult, we tend to be more committed because we made the decision on our own. For someone at a young age, it is very likely the parents made the decision on their behalf. At the end of the day comes down to several factors: the teachers in the Suzuki or Yamaha program assumed every child have the talent for music. The ones who would be successful are those with interest to practice the required pieces and show enthusiasm coming to a lesson and playing the pieces learned. And then there is the issue that the parents are paying for the lessons. They need to see there is improvement after the money is spent. When it comes to the time every lesson becomes a drag, it's time to reconsider your options.

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Am I the only one here whose last video game was Space Invaders......about fifty years ago??

Maybe no-one here is old enough to remember that game. Sometimes, in my daydreams (when I have time in between learning the Goldberg and the Diabelli and Opus Clavicembalisticum wink ), I wonder how much time I've saved by not playing any video games and not having a cell phone, and not being on any social media.........

When a kid says he has no time to practice, what he means is that Facebook (or whatever) and Exterminate the Exterminator (or whatever) is more important to him than piano playing.

When I was a kid, I had art lessons, swimming lessons, football (soccer) and a lot of homework (this was in a country far, far away where kids were given two hours of homework a day) - and still had time to practice piano (competing against the TV) and read a lot of books. I thanked my lucky stars that - unlike many of my schoolmates - I didn't have to help my parents in manual work, because my father worked in an office, and I knew nothing about banking......


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You underestimate the culture of retro gaming if you think people too young would not know space invaders. I've never played it, but it a classic and I know it.

Today, video games are a cultural media as movies are (with good and bad games, as there are good and bad movies), as litterature is. There is a lot of art in video games : graphics, story, music, ... And the fact that you are an active actor in the story gives a different perspective than what you have in a movie.
Of course, I speak of a time of game. But still in RTS, for instance (real time strategy), I read studies that proves that players of RTS are better at decision making and develop useful skills for other areas of life. And turn based strategy games can be compared to playing chess.
It is a shame that video games have the word "game" in their title (as much as I dislike the fact that we say "play" the piano) and are not considered as highly as chess or movies, when they can convey similar skills or emotions.

-

Disgressing.

Discussions here reminds me of my youth. I totally agree that children often do not choose to play music, will be probably less dedicated than adults choosing this path for this reason. I understand it is frustrating to teach to such kids. And I understand wanting to drop the student. And I don't think it is a bad idea, hencemore if the motivation to teach the kid has gone.

I think, in such case, the best thing is simply be honest and polite with something like "Your kid doesn't practice enough to make my teaching useful. Maybe another teacher will be better suited for him/her. Or maybe he has other interests that should be interesting to look deeper into. I will stop the lessons at X time".


I had two years of music (clarinet) lessons when I was 8. Almost never practiced. My parents stopped the lessons, seeing that I wasn't practicing, so wasn't progressing.
I don't think things would have be different if my teacher then decided to drop me after a year.

I did enjoy music back then, but as a child, I did prefer to spent my time at other things than practice.
It is only later in life that I realized I missed music and went back to it (at 13 years old). At first practicing still very little (but more than 0).
I'm glad my parents exposed me to it young. That was enough to make me realize I liked it, so I was able to get back to it with more motivation and dedication later on.


My piano journey from day 1
Started piano on February 2016.
Pieces I'm working on :
- Rameau, Les Sauvages
- Mozart, K545, 1st mov
- Chopin, nocturne op. posth. in C# minor
- Debussy, Golliwog's cakewalk
- Pozzoli, E.R. 427, etude no. 6
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