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Originally Posted by Nahum
It starts to sound more and more strange! Is this a common teaching style in the West? In USSR, the book was published in 1963 by the outstanding teacher Grigory Kogan "The work of the pianist on himself", dedicated to just the fifth point ()))) It became the bible for all Soviet pianists, but was never translated into English ...

Can you quote some pertinent paragraphs from that book here - in English, of course?

I'd be interested to know what Russian pedagogues expect how their students should practice.


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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by dogperson

- do not start at the beginning and play until you reach a problem


An extremely important paragraph, from the violation of which many students suffer; in which the beginning of piece is learned very clearly and rhythmically, but the closer to the end, the more braking fog. Therefore, it is worth dividing the musical text closer to the end into fragments , say of 2 or 4 bars, and start with the last fragment, moving in the opposite direction to the previous ones. Any place in a piece should sound like it's the beginning; therefore, you should learn to start from any place, no matter how it gets on your nerves!

That's a good tip!

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Unless you're under the gun to learn a piece very quickly I don't think there's harm in playing through a piece from the beginning to however far you've learned it or to whatever section you want to work on at the start of a practice session. The advantage is that this can be enjoyable and thus motivational so why not spend the few minutes it takes?

Of course, this might be too time wasting to do even once if the piece is not reasonably short. And one should definitely not start at the beginning every time if one wants to work on a particular section even if the piece is just one page.

Starting at the beginning one time during a practice session might also be inappropriate for pianists who cannot judge how much work a given section needs to get the piece finished.Those are the type who might end up with the beginning sounding much better than the latter parts of the piece if they start each practice session at the beginning of the piece.

Sometimes I start at the beginning and sometimes I immediately go to the sections I want to work on.

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Unless you're under the gun to learn a piece very quickly I don't think there's harm in playing through a piece from the beginning to however far you've learned it or to whatever section you want to work on at the start of a practice session. The advantage is that this can be enjoyable and thus motivational so why not spend the few minutes it takes?

Of course, this might be too time wasting to do even once if the piece is not reasonably short. And one should definitely not start at the beginning every time if one wants to work on a particular section even if the piece is just one page.

Starting at the beginning one time during a practice session might also be inappropriate for pianists who cannot judge how much work a given section needs to get the piece finished.Those are the type who might end up with the beginning sounding much better than the latter parts of the piece if they start each practice session at the beginning of the piece.

Sometimes I start at the beginning and sometimes I immediately go to the sections I want to work on.



You have the experience to determine what you need and where you should start. Beginners, and many intermediate players, are in the habit of starting at the beginning every time, as it feels good. The habit needs to be broken and ‘starting at the beginning ‘ used only when appropriate.

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Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by bennevis
"Showing the student how to practice" is something that keeps cropping up here in ABF but I've yet to understand what people actually mean by it.
Here's a good starter. Don't know if you had a chance to read it. wink
https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...the-wrong-piano-teacher.html#Post2939150

I think dogperson nailed it in the above post. What we should be concerned with, and should mean, when we discuss "teaching how to practice" is not the nitty-gritty, day-to-day stuff for a particular piece, but, rather, the idea of teachers imparting an "overall practice strategy" to their students. Below is from the link quoted above (bolding is mine):
Originally Posted by dogperson
....Practice tips and exercises are great, but there should be an overall practice strategy that is not repertoire dependent...
Doing things like writing in fingering and sticking to it unless there's a good reason to change it, working in chunks, counting out loud, and all the other things listed in the post, are things that may seem obvious to people with some experience, but are not that obvious to beginners. These are all things that I think fall into a practice strategy that is independent of the the piece or level of experience.


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This thread on PW by cmb13 should keep anyone busy for a long time.
Cmb13 post with Bernhard practice tips
As mentioned by others, this is the kind of things you would expect a teacher to mention, especially for beginners.


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Originally Posted by bennevis

Can you quote some pertinent paragraphs from that book here - in English, of course?

I'd be interested to know what Russian pedagogues expect how their students should practice.

Yes,please :
The book "The work of the pianist" Kogan begins with the fact that before undertaking to learn a work, you should cover it as a whole, familiarize yourself and try to understand, by reading from a sheet. But this method is suitable only for acquaintance, but in no case for further work. After familiarization, there is a stage of learning in pieces. How to divide a work into pieces? - following the musical logic, division into parts, sections, periods, etc. It should not be divided by measures, breaking off the musical thought. In what order do you learn the pieces? - starting from the one that is most "annoying." Particular attention is required to the beginning and ends of the works. Work on pieces of a slow type boils down to work on sound, or rather its melodiousness. How to achieve melodiousness? - by close pressing and “pushing” with the whole body. Kogan talks about the phrase, its breathing and intonation, about building the phrase, its culmination. Next is about combining phrases. Of great importance is the dismemberment and subtext of the phrase. Having finished talking about the melody, Kogan goes on to the accompaniment - bass, harmonic core, correlation of texture plans in different situations. Then comes the chapter on rhythm - the melody leads the music forward, the accompaniment pulls it back ... And so on. Sound, movements and their economy, fingering, differences between fluency and virtuosity, work on technology (thirds, octaves, chords, races, glissandos). Kogan considers all stages of the pianist’s work, problems that arise during the lessons and their solutions up to the stage of the work.




Last edited by Nahum; 01/28/20 01:09 PM.
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Originally Posted by Stubbie
What we should be concerned with, and should mean, when we discuss "teaching how to practice" is not the nitty-gritty, day-to-day stuff for a particular piece, but, rather, the idea of teachers imparting an "overall practice strategy" to their students
I think both are very important.

For example, the exercises Cortot has in all of his editions would fall under stuff for a particular piece. A teacher's advice on how to practice/solve a particular technical problem would fall the stuff for a particular piece heading.

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Originally Posted by dogperson
You have the experience to determine what you need and where you should start. Beginners, and many intermediate players, are in the habit of starting at the beginning every time, as it feels good. The habit needs to be broken and ‘starting at the beginning ‘ used only when appropriate.
A teacher could tell them they can only start at the beginning once a practice session on a particular piece and explain why starting at the beginning every time is a bad idea.

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Stubbie
What we should be concerned with, and should mean, when we discuss "teaching how to practice" is not the nitty-gritty, day-to-day stuff for a particular piece, but, rather, the idea of teachers imparting an "overall practice strategy" to their students
I think both are very important.

For example, the exercises Cortot has in all of his editions would fall under stuff for a particular piece. A teacher's advice on how to practice/solve a particular technical problem would fall the stuff for a particular piece heading.


I don’t think you have read the link to the post before you replied
It included using the practice tips for a specific repertoire provided by a teacher.

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Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Stubbie
What we should be concerned with, and should mean, when we discuss "teaching how to practice" is not the nitty-gritty, day-to-day stuff for a particular piece, but, rather, the idea of teachers imparting an "overall practice strategy" to their students
I think both are very important.

For example, the exercises Cortot has in all of his editions would fall under stuff for a particular piece. A teacher's advice on how to practice/solve a particular technical problem would fall the stuff for a particular piece heading.


I don’t think you have read the link to the post before you replied
It included using the practice tips for a specific repertoire provided by a teacher.
I'm not clear what you're referring to don't but I don't see how any post or link could change what I quoted and commented on.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 01/28/20 01:58 PM.
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Originally Posted by keystring
I've only been able to find five in his list:

- teacher who has a spinnet (don't agree on that one, esp. the conclusion that it can't be a high level pianist)
- teacher who babysits their own children while teaching
- teacher who hits students
- teacher who doesn't teach how to practise

What have I missed?

#4 is about homework and what a student should do for the other 6 days. It kind of blends into #5, about showing a student how to practice. I missed #4 at first.


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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Why was the video made in the first place? If you need people to tell you any of those four things, you have no common sense.

Maybe I should counter that stupid video with "four signs you are the wrong piano student"???

1. You don't practice piano, period.
2. You never follow your teacher's directions.
3. You talk non-stop during lessons and go off topic on all sorts of tangents.
4. You would only play the "songs" that you want, and nothing else.


on #1: I probably would have agreed with this many years ago but if, one day, I get another teacher I plan on holding that teacher responsible for if and how much I practice (as well as how I practice, as per this video). It's very easy to blame the student for not practicing but some teachers have made me want to run home and hit the keys while others have made me wonder why I should bother. I know the idea will ruffle some feathers here but from here on in, if I pay for a teacher and I don't practice, I will hold the teacher responsible and take my business elsewhere.

I think #2 is an extension of #1 and good teachers will find a way to give workable and clear directions that meet their student's needs.

Ok, I'll give you #3.

#4 Compromise on #4. A teacher has to meet a student's needs, and a student wants to get from point A to point B. If a student has a goal, a teacher needs to formulate a plan to meet that goal, which may include music the student didn't intend on learning. If the teacher can make that case then the student should trust the teacher they hired.


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Originally Posted by Josh1770
on #1: I probably would have agreed with this many years ago but if, one day, I get another teacher I plan on holding that teacher responsible for if and how much I practice (as well as how I practice, as per this video). It's very easy to blame the student for not practicing but some teachers have made me want to run home and hit the keys while others have made me wonder why I should bother. I know the idea will ruffle some feathers here but from here on in, if I pay for a teacher and I don't practice, I will hold the teacher responsible and take my business elsewhere.

bizarre 🤪 👽


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Three fifths of the way through this video I was tempted to turn it off. The first three ideas were just plain stupid - the thing about the type of piano, the babysitting, and the hitting. Perhaps this video wasn't made for the adult beginners. He may as well add in "the piano isn't sticky". But the fourth and fifth idea, which are really parts A and B of what a student should do outside of a lesson, should have been front and center. Over the years, and with many teachers, I found that how they handled practice time, or even if they cared about it, was what was lacking in their teaching. I believe a teacher who is being paid to train a student to become a good pianist should be held at least partially responsible for the student's whole piano experience, not just the 40 minutes of the lesson.

I like his idea of a "coach" and would like to start a new thread on the difference between a teacher and coach, and if piano coaches even exist. It's what many of us adult self learners really could use.

The one thing I might add about the "wrong teacher" is the musician who really isn't a teacher. They play concerts, do gigs, or are vocalists who learned how to accompany themselves. And then they teach in between for some extra cash. But they aren't teachers and have no idea what the beginning student in front of them is going through. Much of what they learned - techniques, riffs, etc. they learned twenty years ago and just know it second nature."Musician" and "Teacher" are two different skill sets, both equally difficult to master.


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I think Tyrone is still on track with calling that bizarre. Sounds like you don't feel students have to take much personal responsibility in their practice habits?

Edit: dogperson's answer makes sense on the teacher/coach business.

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You will probably get a million answers to the difference between a teacher and a coach, so here’s mine.
Coach: does not teach the required technique for musical development, but works with a pianist during the polishing/preperformance phase. Yes, coaches exist and concert pianists will often have a coach to discuss and make suggestions for fine-tuning prior to a performance. coaches do not choose repertoire for their students, but are willing to discuss what options the student already is considering.

Teachers, conversely, teach skills and progressive repertoire. Plus any other typical things you want to add. (Theory, posture, tension, practice techniques).

I consider a ‘teacher’ more appropriate to the skill level most of us here have. The lessons do not need to be weekly for the designation of teacher to be used. The designation discriminates what is included in the session.

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Originally Posted by dogperson
You have the experience to determine what you need and where you should start. Beginners, and many intermediate players, are in the habit of starting at the beginning every time, as it feels good. The habit needs to be broken and ‘starting at the beginning ‘ used only when appropriate.

Maybe you've had extremely incompetent teachers before? At the very least, the teacher needs to give you enough skills (that includes time management!) so you can tackle the problems by yourself during the week.

I ALWAYS show how to practice--but the problem is that the students don't follow through.

One of the assignments I always give is to play through the piece from beginning to end at ONE constant, below-average speed with the metronome. After all the sections have been worked out, it is essential to get the entire piece at one tempo, because it's very easy to play the tough sections slower and the easy sections faster. Okay. Guess how many students actually follow through with this idea?


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Originally Posted by Josh1770
on #1: I probably would have agreed with this many years ago but if, one day, I get another teacher I plan on holding that teacher responsible for if and how much I practice (as well as how I practice, as per this video). It's very easy to blame the student for not practicing but some teachers have made me want to run home and hit the keys while others have made me wonder why I should bother. I know the idea will ruffle some feathers here but from here on in, if I pay for a teacher and I don't practice, I will hold the teacher responsible and take my business elsewhere.

Really???

Good luck finding a teacher.


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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by dogperson
You have the experience to determine what you need and where you should start. Beginners, and many intermediate players, are in the habit of starting at the beginning every time, as it feels good. The habit needs to be broken and ‘starting at the beginning ‘ used only when appropriate.

Maybe you've had extremely incompetent teachers before? At the very least, the teacher needs to give you enough skills (that includes time management!) so you can tackle the problems by yourself during the week.

I ALWAYS show how to practice--but the problem is that the students don't follow through.

One of the assignments I always give is to play through the piece from beginning to end at ONE constant, below-average speed with the metronome. After all the sections have been worked out, it is essential to get the entire piece at one tempo, because it's very easy to play the tough sections slower and the easy sections faster. Okay. Guess how many students actually follow through with this idea?


Please stop your unfounded assumptions that I must have had incompetent teachers. All of your students may know not to start at the beginning every time, but not all students know this. FYI I do not start to beginning every time which you would know if you actually read my posts.

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