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It is an awesome project - congratulations once again!

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and what they would tell me is: there are examples, look at the examples!!!


that's just their version of "get a teacher!"

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Originally Posted by U3piano
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and what they would tell me is: there are examples, look at the examples!!!


that's just their version of "get a teacher!"

Actually I’m not right. It turned out I used code exactly as in the examples. Not fair to say anything bad about Teensy forum at all. I was in a hurry and wanted quick answers but ultimately I had to learn the examples. Apologies to any Teensy forum member reading here 🤝


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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Yamaha’s solution with sensors at hammers and under the keys is a unique one. I can hardly compete with a 20-30 years of iterative development by the world’s biggest electronic and acoustic piano manufacturer, a huge Japanese corporation that also makes consumer electronics and vehicles smile

My solution is closer in principle to Kawai Novus in that I only measure hammer velocity. I’m not saying my solution is as good as either AG or Novus but a rough comparison between my N1X and my own DIY controller affirms that my solution is comparable in terms of dynamics. Whether that will be consistent and durable in the long-term is another story though.


Haha, of course! I was just curious how you were measuring the velocity in comparison to how Yamaha is measuring the velocity.

I'll stick with my order with Yamaha unless you can scale up very quickly! LOL.

I still have this nagging question of whether 1024 levels of velocity would make an audible difference. Tyrone says it would not be audible. Since Yamaha does not put the Disklavier Pro version in an upright, there is no way to compare the standard resolution system to the high resolution system. I suppose it might be possible to make this comparison with a grand, but I'm unlikely to ever buy a grand.

Last edited by LarryK; 03/08/20 12:41 PM.
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Pianoteq can interpret high resolution velocity extension. This makes it easy to compare a 127 levels with a let’s say 1000 levels.


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
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VPCG-1, a name idea, since the vpc2 will never be released or compete with yours.

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You know what I'd like to call it? Mine!

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If you were starting over today, what are some of the things you would change or rethink about your design? E.g., would you still use voltage sensing, knowing that the values can swing as much as they do with different power supplies?


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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Pianoteq can interpret high resolution velocity extension. This makes it easy to compare a 127 levels with a let’s say 1000 levels.


I want to hear a comparison of regular and high resolution velocity values played back on an acoustic piano. What I really want is a Disklavier Pro grand, lol.

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Originally Posted by Gombessa
If you were starting over today, what are some of the things you would change or rethink about your design? E.g., would you still use voltage sensing, knowing that the values can swing as much as they do with different power supplies?

Yes, I’ll redesign power supply. Although it’s currently very stable and haven’t moved at all for two days. I’ll split circles and/or make sure each note module (the 17 big vertical PCB-s) has its own voltage regulator, for instance. Currently the modules are power chained and besides the 0.3V voltage drop (not a big deal but yet) there’s also an increasing ripple starting at 10mV up to 50mV p-p at the last one. But probably because of the comparators built in hysteresis (and I also have small caps at each comparator) I don’t notice any influence at all. All else seems great for now.


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Well, I’d love to get rid of the voltage sensing and use metal notch profiles or something similar to the Yamaha and Kawai solution, that would be great. But that would only be possible in big commercial manufacturing. I couldn’t afford this for a one-off DIY project. But for now the solution with voltage and trim pots is surprisingly good and stable.


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Originally Posted by LarryK
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Pianoteq can interpret high resolution velocity extension. This makes it easy to compare a 127 levels with a let’s say 1000 levels.


I want to hear a comparison of regular and high resolution velocity values played back on an acoustic piano. What I really want is a Disklavier Pro grand, lol.


A Disklavier is an acoustic piano... just take one, play through an extended MIDI file, the same with HiResVelocity stripped... and compare.

Perhaps http://www.kuhmann.com/Yamaha.htm has some HiRes file (it has in two format : proprietary Disklavier file, MIDI file)

(I suppose that the grand you want is the CFX wink )

-

It is possible that hearing a prerecorded file is not the good comparison. Hearing what we play live is important. When I play the EWQL Bechstein where the layers are badly tuned, I don’t here what I am playing. I think such an issue is easier to spot while playing than when earing a demo.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 03/08/20 03:22 PM.

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BTW, had I finished this controller a year earlier, I wouldn’t have purchased the N1X. I still love it, yet I’m not sure the high price is really justified in my particular case where I use it only with headphones. Yes, it has slight playability edge with the VRM, binaural, ultra smooth action and mature implementation. But I have a lot of fun with an old keyboard and a bunch of PCB-s I soldered in the bedroom. Add to that the wonderful Garritan CFX. What is not to like smile Yep, this is a biased opinion of course 😛

Last edited by CyberGene; 03/08/20 03:30 PM.

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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Originally Posted by LarryK
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Pianoteq can interpret high resolution velocity extension. This makes it easy to compare a 127 levels with a let’s say 1000 levels.


I want to hear a comparison of regular and high resolution velocity values played back on an acoustic piano. What I really want is a Disklavier Pro grand, lol.


A Disklavier is an acoustic piano... just take one, play through an extended MIDI file, the same with HiResVelocity stripped... and compare.

Perhaps http://www.kuhmann.com/Yamaha.htm has some HiRes file (it has in two format : proprietary Disklavier file, MIDI file)

(I suppose that the grand you want is the CFX wink )

-

It is possible that hearing a prerecorded file is not the good comparison. Hearing what we play live is important. When I play the EWQL Bechstein where the layers are badly tuned, I don’t here what I am playing. I think such an issue is easier to spot while playing than when earing a demo.

Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Originally Posted by LarryK
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Pianoteq can interpret high resolution velocity extension. This makes it easy to compare a 127 levels with a let’s say 1000 levels.


I want to hear a comparison of regular and high resolution velocity values played back on an acoustic piano. What I really want is a Disklavier Pro grand, lol.


A Disklavier is an acoustic piano... just take one, play through an extended MIDI file, the same with HiResVelocity stripped... and compare.

Perhaps http://www.kuhmann.com/Yamaha.htm has some HiRes file (it has in two format : proprietary Disklavier file, MIDI file)

(I suppose that the grand you want is the CFX wink )

-

It is possible that hearing a prerecorded file is not the good comparison. Hearing what we play live is important. When I play the EWQL Bechstein where the layers are badly tuned, I don’t here what I am playing. I think such an issue is easier to spot while playing than when earing a demo.


Yes, I know, the Disklavier system is installed on an acoustic piano. I owned one 30 years ago, and I have another one on order now. ;-)

I wanted to perform such a test on an upright, but, like I said, Yamaha does not install the Pro system on any uprights. I've been told that the Pro system would be compromised on an upright but I would like to see whether it made any difference.

It would be great to hear someone attempt this test on the one of the Disklavier Pro grands, if it is possible, which I am not sure it is. How exactly does one strip out high velocity resolution values? Are the values mapped to 0-127? Does Yamaha do this to play back the same performance on Standard and Pro models, or do they record takes on Standard and Pro models?

The grand I want is either the DS5X ENPRO, or the DS3X ENPRO: ;-)

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/pianos/disklavier/enspire_pro/index.html

I'll probably never own one but it is nice to dream.

Last edited by LarryK; 03/08/20 03:53 PM.
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One way is the to play a record with a DAW.

If the DAW is Reaper, we can use a script which strip the HiRes Velocity event. With Reaper, you can bypass a script and compare full and reduced resolution.

If the DAW is not Reaper, perhaps** we can install the free ReaPlugs which contains the ReaJS scripting engine of Reaper.

** I have written “perhaps” since nearly all DAW support VSTi, but I am lot sure about VST which transform MIDI to MIDI.


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Nice project, and congrats on completing it!


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Originally Posted by CyberGene
BTW, had I finished this controller a year earlier, I wouldn’t have purchased the N1X.


Here here (or is it hear hear?)! As polished as the production hybrids are, it really sounds like your homebrew solution is really everything you could hope for (well, maybe 85/88ths of everything) smile

The best part IMO? You don't have to sit on the sidelines pontificating with the rest of us about whether x, y, or z feature is beneficial, you could just do it and test firsthand!

So, how about triggering a note-on velocity 1 so long as the key sensor is activated? That's something neither the AG nor Novus currently do wink


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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
One way is the to play a record with a DAW.

If the DAW is Reaper, we can use a script which strip the HiRes Velocity event. With Reaper, you can bypass a script and compare full and reduced resolution.

If the DAW is not Reaper, perhaps** we can install the free ReaPlugs which contains the ReaJS scripting engine of Reaper.

** I have written “perhaps” since nearly all DAW support VSTi, but I am lot sure about VST which transform MIDI to MIDI.


I don't know enough about the extended Midi spec to agree or disagree but I guess you do. smile It would be cool if someone took a Disklavier Pro grand and played back standard and high resolution midi files and performed a blind test to see if most people could hear the difference. Yamaha makes and sells high resolution record and playback Disklavier Pro systems so they must think the difference is audible.

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Originally Posted by Gombessa
So, how about triggering a note-on velocity 1 so long as the key sensor is activated? That's something neither the AG nor Novus currently do wink

I tried this for a moment: by extending second distance point. But I lost the capability to play off the jack, so I reverted it. And can easily play off the jack now. (and N1X and NV10 can’t do it or it’s not very easy, so I’m already ahead). Another possibility is to detect whether hammer passed first sensor (damper on) and if sufficient time passed without actual note being produced, send MIDI 1 which is what is on my “backlog” of things to test further although it may slightly slow down my scanning and I wouldn’t risk this for such a low priority stuff.

Last edited by CyberGene; 03/08/20 04:55 PM.

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Hmm, actually I can send 1 immediately and unconditionally on first sensor activation. This is cheap operation. Only wondering what would happen on fast notes: 1 followed immediately by actual velocity. If the VSTs will behave with that.


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