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Wow, this is really good. I think it will give both QRS and PianoDisc a run for their money. Actually I think you should contact either of them and see if they are interested in collaborating to make the project available commercially for the ones who do not want to build it themselves. Well, provided YOU are interested in collaborating with them, obviously.

Like everybody on this thread, I am looking forward to additional tech documentation. And since we both are in software so we know: don't wait for the documentation to be good, because we will grow too old meanwhile ;-)

Just "dump" what you have and let people scramble with it.

Thanks again and have a great weekend,
D.

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Originally Posted by Del Vento
I think it will give both QRS and PianoDisc a run for their money. Actually I think you should contact either of them and see if they are interested in collaborating to make the project available commercially for the ones who do not want to build it themselves.

While I agree that this is an awesome project, I do not think this is something QRS or PianoDisc would be interested in or be intimidated by. The main reason is the visibility of the electronics. While it doesn't bother me, I believe that most grand piano owners would not want to have the electronics visible. One of the selling points of the QRS and PianoDisc systems is that the electronics are hidden under the keys.

By the way, this is a project that I am also interested in working on (given the time and the ability to purchase a grand piano action), so I also look forward to additional documentation about the project!

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The only advantage my solution has over these is the ability to easily remove it. And measurement at the hammers which is more precise. However their solutions are very advanced in terms of electronics and I believe they are self-calibrating compared to the tedious trimpot turning in my solution. Besides, mounting under they keybed can be standardized because the key widths are standardized, they have ready made PCB strips with sensors at proper distances. In my case the frame is customized to fit a specific action with specific hammer placement, gaps and sections.

So, no, no competition here smile They can sleep well.


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Hi Jon,
Not sure what you mean by "the visibility of the electronics", since for the QRS and PianoDisc use case the action is inside the grand cabinet. And if it really bothers people (technicians?) when removing the fallboard, they can be easily made "hidden" by plastic molding box(es).

Regarding your project, as I said earlier there is no shortage of free (or very cheap) grand pianos in the USA. Just take one off craigslist (have to select one with good action and crappy rest), remove the action and pay the removal of the cabinet, straight from the owner's house so you don't have to pay for the move to your place. It should cost you around $200 (may be more or less depending on the local market).

For the time, I'm working on building a machine to stop it, so we all (me first) can have all that we need, ROTFL.

Cheers,
D.

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Originally Posted by CyberGene
The only advantage my solution has over these is the ability to easily remove it. And measurement at the hammers which is more precise.

Do not undervalue either. I've heard lots of complains from owner and technicians about both issues. Not sure how yours compare, but on paper (screen) it seems a big leap forward. Especially after hearing how much better the Kawai NV5 is compared to the Yamaha NU1 (hammers vs key sensor).

Originally Posted by CyberGene
However their solutions are very advanced in terms of electronics and I believe they are self-calibrating compared to the tedious trimpot turning in my solution.

They are not self calibrating but require a tedious labor too. And your electronic could be made more advanced if there is enough volume of customers.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Besides, mounting under they keybed can be standardized because the key widths are standardized, they have ready made PCB strips with sensors at proper distances. In my case the frame is customized to fit a specific action with specific hammer placement, gaps and sections.

That is the only real drawback of your solution, but in my opinion it is a small price to pay and it could be engineerized for the most common string distances and the most common section sizes.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
So, no, no competition here smile They can sleep well.

I was suggesting you to collaborate with them, not to compete against them :-)

Building a company from scratch is too much work for me to suggest you to do it. You need to have strong entrepreneurship qualities, time, money, etc. It needs to come from inside you, not from someone's suggesting.

On the other hand, talking to them and see if they are interested is easy, not time consuming, and I'd certainly do it if I were you -- so I can suggest that. But obviously is your life, your time and your project, so it's your decision :-)

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If PNO or QRS were interested in making this, then I don't think there's anything to stop them.
Unless CyberGene possesses intellectual property rights and is willing to defend them, anyone could use this idea at will.

I think the adjustment thing is an issue. The pots (264 of them!) are a manufacturing burden.
Could they be eliminated by doing the adjustments in software?

I'm not sure whether the visibility of the "guts" is an issue. If the lid is open we can already see piano guts, right?
Anyway, a clever designer could "dress" the Cyber guts to give them a "traditional" look. (I don't possess that kind of clever, but others do.)

I think the main thing is what CG said: the non-standard spacing. Key widths are nearly standard from the player's perspective.
But once you go behind the fallboard, the keysticks splay out left and right.
How much? It varies for each group of keys, and it depends on the piano's scale design.

None of that is standard. Is that the point you're making, CG?

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Originally Posted by Del Vento
Hi Jon,
as I said earlier there is no shortage of free (or very cheap) grand pianos in the USA. Just take one off craigslist (have to select one with good action and crappy rest), remove the action and pay the removal of the cabinet, straight from the owner's house so you don't have to pay for the move to your place. It should cost you around $200 (may be more or less depending on the local market).

or you can buy a cheaper upright piano action and turn it into a grand piano action. Or if you find a cheap baby grand you can disassemble everything and pack it inside the car grin

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All the commercial solutions use very mature implementations of detecting key velocity through proximity sensors. But under the keys. They only need to use them on the hammers to turn it into my solution, so I can’t give them anything they couldn’t do themselves. I haven’t invented anything special.

And I don’t think I can do a software calibration. The main principle I use is that of turning analog proximity signals into binary digital signals exactly the same as a triple sensor digital piano: I have three consecutive switch lines that are enabled one by one. The controller only scans through them in a loop and I think this is exactly how digital piano logic works. I’m sure if I somehow have a Fatar keyboard or any other triple or double sensor keyboard with sensor switches wired, I can multiplex and feed the signals straight to the main board with the Teensy controller, eliminating the trimpot PCB-s and generate MIDI with my existing code without any change besides coefficients of the velocity calculation.

Last edited by CyberGene; 07/04/20 01:30 PM.

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Originally Posted by CyberGene
I’m sure if I somehow have a Fatar keyboard or any other triple or double sensor keyboard with sensor switches wired, I can multiplex and feed the signals straight to the main board with the Teensy controller, eliminating the trimpot PCB-s and generate MIDI with my existing code without any change besides coefficients of the velocity calculation.

Now, I've tinkered with "maker" bits like this before and been around electronics, IT, and coding for years and years. I understand the words you have used here.

But when you string them together like that, it's either as beautiful as Debussey and as frightening as the Opus Clavicembalisticum! Or BOTH! smile


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Guys, instead of trying to convince CG to go the commercial route with his Cybrid, maybe we should focus on showing appreciation for what he accomplished. He was not a piano maker, or an specialist on electronics, and over the course of a few years he managed to craft a functional hybrid piano.

Odds are the commercial version are far more mature developments than his, but in any case his accomplishment is impressive.

CG, as someone who has loves to go into the unexplored with projects, I can only imagine the dedication and effort this took. Congratulations!!!

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This is the part that amazes me ...
Originally Posted by greypiano
He was not a piano maker, or an specialist on electronics, and over the course of a few years he managed to craft a functional hybrid piano.
CG said that himself. And that's astonishing. Not only does his Cyber Cembalo work, but the assembly looks as good as a professional prototype. No sky-wired crap. Clean as a whistle.

So how can it be that he claims to be no specialist in electronics? Either he're really an expert in disguise, or he's a prodigy.

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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Either he're really an expert in disguise, or he's a prodigy.


Originally Posted by kimby
Or BOTH! smile

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Originally Posted by CyberGene
BTW, I started publishing and describing my project in GitHub but didn’t finish it only for being lazy. Wondering if there are really people interested in it, so that I know whether I should bother?

Since you mentioned Github, I've been waiting for the repo link.

I think it's fine to public unfinished work on Github, so people can start contributing to the project in various ways.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
A particular pain in the arse is the .MD format on GitHub which is very limited. For instance you can’t inline YouTube videos.

As for document or website, you can use a static site generator, and deploy to https://pages.github.com/

Or use https://www.netlifycms.org/ (opensource), and deploy to https://www.netlify.com/ (free).

I can help a bit with those.

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A new video from the Cybrid:



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Very nice! How will we all do soon, when Cybrid will be moved far from you?

Garritan sounds really nice. It doesn't have a demo version for testing how it would sound on my setup, does it?

Cheers,
D.

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Sounds awesome. And the performance has improved! It's practically Sofronitzky now. Though, for effect you should play it using The Maverick VST for proper antique sound...


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Lovely expert playing, as usual, but could you explain the attraction of the piece? At the beginning it sounds meandering, almost to the point of being atonal without actually being atonal. I think it might make sense in the context of a movie or comedy (Charlie Chaplin), or maybe a ballet/dance/theater performance, or yes, a poem with words, but by itself it feels hard to situate.

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Originally Posted by navindra
could you explain the attraction of the piece? At the beginning it sounds meandering, almost to the point of being atonal without actually being atonal. I think it might make sense in the context of a movie or comedy (Charlie Chaplin), or maybe a ballet/dance/theater performance, or yes, a poem with words, but by itself it feels hard to situate.

Put it in its proper historical context (both globally, and among Scriabin's own background) and it makes perfect sense. The last gasp of romanticism and self-indulgence, with a bit of sweetness and intimacy. The opening has two melodies at the same time at the start of the phrases, and then the ascending scale passage to finish each short phrase. It provides a peculiar buildup on the first and third pages that are resolved on the 2nd and 4th, ultimately dissolving into an embrace of F#, the composer's favorite key. It's even more fun when you pair Op.32 No.1 and Op.32 No.2 together, as the second one is mostly bombastic.


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Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Put it in its proper historical context (both globally, and among Scriabin's own background) and it makes perfect sense. The last gasp of romanticism and self-indulgence, with a bit of sweetness and intimacy. The opening has two melodies at the same time at the start of the phrases, and then the ascending scale passage to finish each short phrase. It provides a peculiar buildup on the first and third pages that are resolved on the 2nd and 4th, ultimately dissolving into an embrace of F#, the composer's favorite key. It's even more fun when you pair Op.32 No.1 and Op.32 No.2 together, as the second one is mostly bombastic.

That's a very informative way of explaining the appeal of this piece, thanks!

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No problem, navindra. It's primarily what I do for a living, when I'm not posting on the forum, adjudicating festivals and competitions, or writing product reviews.

Scriabin is an acquired taste beyond the early opuses, that really didn't register on my radar until I was in my second year studying at a conservatory. It's very late romantic/early 20th century piano music... for piano nerds. When I was in my 20s I was really taken with his music. I taught a Russian Piano Literature class last fall semester, and the reaction from my undergraduate students to Scriabin was completely mixed-- not all of them liked it, but they generally knew it when they heard it on the listening exams. Your general unease with the opening motive can often be a useful tool in figuring out whether you're going to like a Scriabin work, because he tends to stick with those opening motives throughout so many of his piano compositions from start to finish.

The earliest of his music sounds more like Chopin, while the later music becomes increasingly avant-garde and consumed with crazy imagery, philosophy, mysticism. It's with that stuff that you have to really get "outside yourself" and assume a larger-than-life interpretive persona, to get the interpretations to work in support of the inherent oddity of the music.


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