2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
44 members (CaseyVancouver, brdwyguy, Burkey, Dfrankjazz, c++, David B, 36251, BlakeOR, Alex McG, 11 invisible), 1,018 guests, and 519 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 3 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,121
B
1000 Post Club Member
Online Content
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,121
Originally Posted by Pete14
Originally Posted by Burkey
Originally Posted by Kawai James
I do not agree. Yamaha also produced very strong instruments in the 2010s.

Kind regards,
James
x
I think perhaps you misread what I wrote: 'A decade ago' means models released prior to 2010. We are in agreement regarding the 2010s.

‘A decade ago’ literally means 2010
Yes: that is precisely what I intended smile

At the point in time 1 decade ago, in 2010 - which means at that time the only models in existence were those released before that point in time.

Last edited by Burkey; 10/02/20 06:55 AM.

Pianos are one of the best human inventions of the past 320 years - help evangelize the magic!
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,121
B
1000 Post Club Member
Online Content
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,121
Originally Posted by Burkey
Originally Posted by Nifrigel
Burkey, you seem to know much about keyboards. Do you know the weight of CLP-785 keys and also if they length is the same as CA79 ones?
The 785 I measured had key downweight about 20% heavier than the CA79/CA99 - around 75/76 grams at A0.

Hi Nifrigel - sorry I made a mistake there in my calculation.

The CA79/CA99 keys are about 53/54 grams at A0 - so the CLP-785 is up to 40% heavier, not 20%. I.e. it is very noticeable.

Last edited by Burkey; 10/02/20 07:07 AM.

Pianos are one of the best human inventions of the past 320 years - help evangelize the magic!
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,121
B
1000 Post Club Member
Online Content
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,121
Originally Posted by Beowulf
Originally Posted by Burkey
I think perhaps you misread what I wrote: 'A decade ago' means models released prior to 2010. We are in agreement regarding the 2010s.
James did not misread. If you meant prior to 2010, you should phrase it as 'more than a decade ago'.
No - 'a decade ago' means the point in time 1 decade ago, i.e. as of 2010. Please go and research it if you don't believe me.

Last edited by Burkey; 10/02/20 07:14 AM.

Pianos are one of the best human inventions of the past 320 years - help evangelize the magic!
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 322
O
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
O
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 322
Originally Posted by Burkey
Originally Posted by Burkey
Originally Posted by Nifrigel
Burkey, you seem to know much about keyboards. Do you know the weight of CLP-785 keys and also if they length is the same as CA79 ones?
The 785 I measured had key downweight about 20% heavier than the CA79/CA99 - around 75/76 grams at A0.

Hi Nifrigel - sorry I made a mistake there in my calculation.

The CA79/CA99 keys are about 53/54 grams at A0 - so the CLP-785 is up to 40% heavier, not 20%. I.e. it is very noticeable.

Woow, that's a lot.

Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 576
B
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 576
Originally Posted by Doug M.
Originally Posted by Beowulf
You can find their keyboard action or sound unsuitable for your taste but one thing you can never fault Yamaha for is the quality of their products smile

Actually, this is factually incorrect. The first match of Yamaha P515's had issues reported here on Pianoworld. I have also gone back through pianoworld posts and discovered that Yamaha digitals are far from complaint free.

People shouldn't spread rumours they've heard about reliability without first checking.
I think you've gotten the words 'quality' and 'reliability' mixed up.


Yamaha AvantGrand N1X
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,360
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,360
Originally Posted by Beowulf
Originally Posted by Doug M.
Originally Posted by Beowulf
You can find their keyboard action or sound unsuitable for your taste but one thing you can never fault Yamaha for is the quality of their products smile

Actually, this is factually incorrect. The first match of Yamaha P515's had issues reported here on Pianoworld. I have also gone back through pianoworld posts and discovered that Yamaha digitals are far from complaint free.

People shouldn't spread rumours they've heard about reliability without first checking.
I think you've gotten the words 'quality' and 'reliability' mixed up.

If you mean quality, Yamaha, Kawai and Roland along with most of the major manufacturers (Nord, Kurzeil,Korg, Casio etc) all make high quality products.

Yamaha and Kawai make the most realistic instruments (action wise), then Casio, then Roland (discounting v. expensive and exclusive models not generally accessible).

I would not worship Yamaha, as they have no objective claim to be better than their competitors, except perhaps at amplification (which Kawai are catching up).


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7SE; Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 576
B
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 576
Originally Posted by Doug M.
If you mean quality, Yamaha, Kawai and Roland along with most of the major manufacturers (Nord, Kurzeil,Korg, Casio etc) all make high quality products.

Yamaha and Kawai make the most realistic instruments (action wise), then Casio, then Roland (discounting v. expensive and exclusive models not generally accessible).

I would not worship Yamaha, as they have no objective claim to be better than their competitors, except perhaps at amplification (which Kawai are catching up).
You're right that they all do. Yet, no brand can be free of product defects. Personally, I received my Yamaha N1X which came with a defective pedal unit as well, and I believe there were some who received theirs with a broken fallboard hinge. But if you put these aside, their products generally have a great build quality, nice touch and finish to them, and like you said, amazing amplification which is arguably one of the best in the business.


Yamaha AvantGrand N1X
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 31
N
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
N
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 31
Originally Posted by Burkey
Hi Nifrigel - sorry I made a mistake there in my calculation.

The CA79/CA99 keys are about 53/54 grams at A0 - so the CLP-785 is up to 40% heavier, not 20%. I.e. it is very noticeable.
Hi, Burkey, thanks for the information! Do you by any chance also have the key weight data on Roland keyboards for reference?

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,121
B
1000 Post Club Member
Online Content
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,121
Originally Posted by Nifrigel
Originally Posted by Burkey
Hi Nifrigel - sorry I made a mistake there in my calculation.

The CA79/CA99 keys are about 53/54 grams at A0 - so the CLP-785 is up to 40% heavier, not 20%. I.e. it is very noticeable.
Hi, Burkey, thanks for the information! Do you by any chance also have the key weight data on Roland keyboards for reference?
From memory the best Roland action (Hybrid Grand in the LX706 & LX708) is about 62 grams (A0) to about 50 grams (C8) - i.e. about 15% heavier than the Kawai CA79/CA99, about the same as the Yamaha CLP-745, and much lighter than the Yamaha CLP-785.

The main problem with the Hybrid Grand action (and Roland actions in general) is they don't use linear weight grading. I.e. from A0 to about C3 - the keys are all pretty much the same weight. And that means all heavy! I have noticed that the good Kawai and Yamaha models do not suffer from this major flaw. The acoustics I have measured are also weighted linearly.

Last edited by Burkey; 10/04/20 09:25 AM.

Pianos are one of the best human inventions of the past 320 years - help evangelize the magic!
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 59
T
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
T
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 59
So I'm also still deciding (it's been a week now) between CA99 and CLP785...

My situation is the following:
- I already have acoustic 76' Yamaha UX upright
- want to go digital to practice at night, early morning....
- the ONLY piano I can try at the store is clp785
- CLP785 would be 4300eur satin black, 4800eur PE and 5000eur for the glossy white one + I get free chair and a decent headphones - delivery 2 weeks and free asambly included. I would have store support / service readily available in case of issues
- CA99; I could only get it from Thomann.de for 4555eur (PE versionI + I get free chair and a decent headphones) - delivery 3-5 weeks
- I play some fast stuff with repetitions (e.g. Chopin) and I am really struggling with my acoustic UX due to heavy action (pressing una corda pedal helps, but the right side of my back still hurts after practicing fantasie impromptu:(

I wanted CA99 initially due to GFIII and interesting soundboard concept.
After reading many complaints about CA99 about quality issues I'm afraid I would have to deal with returns, servicies etc.
The 785 on the other side is really new model with spruce speakers and VRM concept to simulate the same thing CA99 achieves with soundboard.

I've read some good things about clp785 action being improved regarding the heavey touch from 600 series...can someone who actually played the clp785 confirm this?
CA99 has supposedly the best DP action with balance pins.

Both have full wooden keys (at least white ones are 100% on the yamaha), pivot on the Yamaha is 1cm more (25cm vs 24cm) which is a good thing in terms of control. Both have individually graded - weighted keys (which is something not found on e.g. Roland I think..)
The sound seems very good on both but I trust Yamaha more than Kawai not to have any of the reported quality issues...(buzzing, rattling, key clicking).
I've also read that some users find Kawai CA79/99 cheap in terms of the construction of the cabinet (talking about non EP versions, EP seems to be better, look better).

One other plus with Yamaha is binaural cfx and Bösie sampling - is this only related to headphone experience or also reflects through cabinet speakers?

CA99 has a cool display but clp785 has piano dote sounds smile
It also has 16 track recorder available within the app (not with CA99).

What do you guys think, which one should I go for? smile

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,780
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,780
@Thelycandraven: Most of your post references specs and marketing claims, and none of it references an attempt to actually try the pianos.

I find specs to be nearly worthless, and I find that trying the pianos to be the end-all, most important part of choosing a piano.

So ignore the soundboards and the spruce speakers.
Ignore the VRM and the balance pins.
Ignore the tail fins, too!

You're an experienced pianist, so just try the pianos and judge for yourself. Your own opinion is the ONLY ONE that matters, right?

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,360
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,360
Originally Posted by Thelycandraven
So I'm also still deciding (it's been a week now) between CA99 and CLP785...

My situation is the following:
- I already have acoustic 76' Yamaha UX upright
- want to go digital to practice at night, early morning....
- the ONLY piano I can try at the store is clp785
- CLP785 would be 4300eur satin black, 4800eur PE and 5000eur for the glossy white one + I get free chair and a decent headphones - delivery 2 weeks and free asambly included. I would have store support / service readily available in case of issues
- CA99; I could only get it from Thomann.de for 4555eur (PE versionI + I get free chair and a decent headphones) - delivery 3-5 weeks
- I play some fast stuff with repetitions (e.g. Chopin) and I am really struggling with my acoustic UX due to heavy action (pressing una corda pedal helps, but the right side of my back still hurts after practicing fantasie impromptu:(

I wanted CA99 initially due to GFIII and interesting soundboard concept.
After reading many complaints about CA99 about quality issues I'm afraid I would have to deal with returns, servicies etc.
The 785 on the other side is really new model with spruce speakers and VRM concept to simulate the same thing CA99 achieves with soundboard.

I've read some good things about clp785 action being improved regarding the heavey touch from 600 series...can someone who actually played the clp785 confirm this?
CA99 has supposedly the best DP action with balance pins.

Both have full wooden keys (at least white ones are 100% on the yamaha), pivot on the Yamaha is 1cm more (25cm vs 24cm) which is a good thing in terms of control. Both have individually graded - weighted keys (which is something not found on e.g. Roland I think..)
The sound seems very good on both but I trust Yamaha more than Kawai not to have any of the reported quality issues...(buzzing, rattling, key clicking).
I've also read that some users find Kawai CA79/99 cheap in terms of the construction of the cabinet (talking about non EP versions, EP seems to be better, look better).

One other plus with Yamaha is binaural cfx and Bösie sampling - is this only related to headphone experience or also reflects through cabinet speakers?

CA99 has a cool display but clp785 has piano dote sounds smile
It also has 16 track recorder available within the app (not with CA99).

What do you guys think, which one should I go for? smile

Hey 😀,
Just to clear something up:
All today's manufacturers barring Roland and Physis use sampling plus resonance modelling. The manufacturers just use different jargon for the same thing. Yamaha use VRM (Virtual Resonance Modelling), Kawai use advanced resonance algorithms for that.

For sampling, Yamaha have binaural sampling, and Kawai have instead SK-EX Rendering which utilises multi-channel sampling to capture the sound from different points of the Shigeru Kawai concert grand piano.

Kawai Ca99 has a Real Soundboard:
Quote
In addition to conventional speakers, the flagship CA99 also incorporates Kawai’s latest TwinDrive soundboard speaker system. This unique acoustic projection technology harnesses transducer components to channel sound energy onto a real wooden soundboard, resulting in an even richer, more organic piano tone that faithfully reproduces the ambience of an acoustic piano.

I'm not aware of a similar system on the CLP785, but the amplification on the Yamaha is pretty good anyway.

Also, the Kawai pivot point is like an acoustic action''s, whereas, the Yamaha pivot is at the end of the key. This may explain why the action is less realistic.

Last edited by Doug M.; 01/03/21 02:13 PM.

Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7SE; Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,365
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,365
When trying a CA97 and a CLP685 (some time ago), I didn’t feel much difference, then, a fulcrum at the end of the key or at the middle doesn’t matter. It is just MY feeling with the previous generation of DP.

The CLP785 has some spruce speakers. Mini soundboards ?

Last edited by Frédéric L; 01/03/21 02:35 PM.

Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 1,106
J
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 1,106
Do we know the Pivot on the 785 is 1 cm more vs ca99 ? The diagram makes it look like 30cm.

Last edited by jeffcat; 01/03/21 02:44 PM.
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 1,106
J
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 1,106
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
The CLP785 has some spruce speakers. Mini soundboards ?

More like mini-snake-oils.

Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 59
T
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
T
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 59
Originally Posted by jeffcat
Do we know the Pivot on the 785 is 1 cm more vs ca99 ? The diagram makes it look like 30cm.
I think I've read the exact 24cm vs 25cm on the forum but I can't remember where exactly...

Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 59
T
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
T
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 59
Originally Posted by Thelycandraven
Originally Posted by jeffcat
Do we know the Pivot on the 785 is 1 cm more vs ca99 ? The diagram makes it look like 30cm.
I think I've read the exact 24cm vs 25cm on the forum but I can't remember where exactly...
Also Yamaha itself claims to have the longest pivot in the industry:) oh sweet marketing:P

Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 59
T
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
T
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 59
Originally Posted by jeffcat
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
The CLP785 has some spruce speakers. Mini soundboards ?

More like mini-snake-oils.
Lol could be or not:) I think it is a nice move to counter CA99 soundboard though. I believe that good speakers make a difference. Spruce membrane should emulate soundboard in terms if resonance..

Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 59
T
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
T
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 59
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
@Thelycandraven: Most of your post references specs and marketing claims, and none of it references an attempt to actually try the pianos.

I find specs to be nearly worthless, and I find that trying the pianos to be the end-all, most important part of choosing a piano.

So ignore the soundboards and the spruce speakers.
Ignore the VRM and the balance pins.
Ignore the tail fins, too!

You're an experienced pianist, so just try the pianos and judge for yourself. Your own opinion is the ONLY ONE that matters, right?
Yes, I agree..but as I said, I only have the option to try the clp785:( 1:1 comparison eith Kawai will not be possible in my small country. So I have to rely on specs and on oppinion of other people who actually were able to play both..
Yes, I get the marketing..

Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,639
O
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,639
Originally Posted by Thelycandraven
- the ONLY piano I can try at the store is clp785

This makes the decision easy. Go try CLP785 at the store and if you like it, buy it. Do not buy CA-99 without trying it and knowing how the action/sound feels to you.

All other considerations (features that you listed) are secondary.

Osho


Mason & Hamlin BB
Kawai Novus NV10 + VST + Genelec 8050B monitors.
Current VST favorites (in the order of preference): Pianoteq 7/VSL Synchron Concert D//Garritan CFX/Embertone Walker D Full

[Linked Image]
Page 3 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Best Tuner for singing?
by ZanderChicago - 06/20/21 11:37 AM
Recent 24” M1 iMac and Pianos
by dhts - 06/20/21 07:55 AM
Digital piano - online vs in store purchase.
by witor - 06/20/21 07:45 AM
help finding best action DP
by luisdent - 06/20/21 02:03 AM
I’m completely lost!
by Mils - 06/19/21 11:33 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics207,616
Posts3,105,642
Members101,869
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5