2022 our 25th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
69 members (C. L., accordeur, Boboulus, Bill McClellan, Burkhard, anotherscott, 18 invisible), 616 guests, and 309 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 19 of 21 1 2 17 18 19 20 21
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,267
7000 Post Club Member
Offline
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,267
Found some time to test Pianoteq 7.2 today. Well, the issue I had with the upper two octaves is improved. Apparently Modartt are reading this thread and understood what I meant smile

What can I say... It's not my piano. My main issue is there's some dullness to the sound, and there's lack of perception for space. And I went through all the NY Steinway D presets but there's not this nice real 3D separation of the sound. It's all too boxed and nasal as though coming from another room.

That being said, it's indeed the best Pianoteq so far but is simply not my piano. I also went through all piano models back to the Grotrian and the only two models that I like are the NY and Hamburg Steinways. Many of them have some plasticky bass especially when hit hard. The high octaves are too bell-like.

With the NY Steinway it's the best so far but I realize a big gap is this boxy sound, slightly nasal, slightly dull, slightly mono-like, for lack of better words. I think a particular problem is also that there's no reverb that works good across the patches. It's always artificial. I believe the basic raw sound is just too synthetic to start with.

I also realize sample based libraries, especially modern ones include multi-mic perspectives that add a very realistic ambience. I miss that in Pianoteq where the reverberation sounds like an effect and not like something real.

I didn't want this to be some insulting/bashing post. I see progress in Pianoteq. It's not bad even for my taste. But not great either... Maybe! Maybe it can be made better through better reverberation? I know we speculated that they start with samples and approach them through modeling. If that's true, how about they start with multi-mic samples that include a real studio ambiance and approach that through modeling without resorting to fake algorithmic reverb or convolution reverb?

Last edited by CyberGene; 02/24/21 01:28 PM.

I'm not around. You can find me here
My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Yamaha N1X, Cybrid DIY hybrid controller
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 164
L
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
L
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 164
Hi CyberGene,
first things first, i hope and i think (since you spend some time with Pianoteq) you're are recovering well from that Covid monster.
No problem if you don't like Pianoteq to much. I remember you really didn't like Rolands modelling also.
I hated Pianoteq in version 4 (the one i bought) but now really,really love the current version 7.2 with that NY D grand.
To each his own ? Absolute!
As for reverb, i think we all need Seventh Heaven from Liquidsonics ( Ilok dongle or account needed frown ) there is a 14 days full functioning trial ). Haven't tried myself (but will do when Ilok is supported for Silicon M1 macs, in my case)

Take care of yourself !

Last edited by lvercaut; 02/24/21 01:58 PM.
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 1,140
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 1,140
Thanks for the update CG and the positive bit is that you're back on your feet!

Here's another interesting update. Yesterday, I came across this video on Robert Estrin's personal pianos. He was born into a family of piano players and has personally owned many magnificent grands...



What's the surprise? In the comments, he reveals that he uses nothing but Pianoteq for the hybrid action he invented:

Quote
LivingPianosVideos
6 months ago
I use PianoTeq virtual piano which is a physical modeled piano rather than sampled which gives expressiveness. It's also really easy to use since you don't have to load massive sample libraries.

Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,665
O
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,665
CG,

Glad to see you posting and playing with Pianoteq - you must be feeling better.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
It's not bad even for my taste.

We, the Pianoteq lovers, will declare victory and move on smile.

BTW, I am curious if you had a chance to try the 2 FXP I had posted. I would love to hear your take on these (good or bad).

Osho


Mason & Hamlin BB
Kawai Novus NV10 + VST + Genelec 8050B monitors.
Current VST favorites (in the order of preference): Pianoteq 7/VSL Synchron Concert D//Garritan CFX/Embertone Walker D Full

[Linked Image]
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,267
7000 Post Club Member
Offline
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,267
Osho, no, sorry I forgot to test your patches. I’ll do when I have time.

As to COVID, I think I got lucky and it was rather easy for me: a week of really bad fatigue where I felt totally wasted throughout most of the day. Found it difficult to even hold my iPhone for more than a few minutes. The X-ray showed an initial stage of lung infection and so I had a 10-day course of antibiotics which I finished today. I’ll have to take blood thinners for a month and besides the slight cough I still have, I feel great smile So, back to PW and regular business.


I'm not around. You can find me here
My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Yamaha N1X, Cybrid DIY hybrid controller
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 438
F
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
F
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 438
CyberGene’s point regarding reverb is spot on. I use FabFilter Pro-R or even cheap PSP PianoVerb2.

Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 1,140
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 1,140
Originally Posted by Fleer
CyberGene’s point regarding reverb is spot on. I use FabFilter Pro-R or even cheap PSP PianoVerb2.

Do you turn off reverb completely on Pianoteq before piping to the external reverb? Or do you keep some Pianoteq resonance to simulate the cabinet?

Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 301
F
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
F
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 301
Originally Posted by navindra
Originally Posted by Fleer
CyberGene’s point regarding reverb is spot on. I use FabFilter Pro-R or even cheap PSP PianoVerb2.

Do you turn off reverb completely on Pianoteq before piping to the external reverb? Or do you keep some Pianoteq resonance to simulate the cabinet?

I think there are different settings for those. Personally I had the best results when turning the PT reverb off completely, but mix and match might also be a good way.

Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 73
R
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
R
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 73
Originally Posted by CyberGene
...a big gap is this boxy sound, slightly nasal, slightly dull, slightly mono-like

As from a badly miked grand?
Seriously, i found dramatic improvements in liveliness (for my taste) with adapted mic positions.
For me the most important parameter and reason o upgrade from stage version.

Still, your hassle with reverb might be more specific. I must confess i like it dry...

Keep feeling great!

-Rhodes74

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,267
7000 Post Club Member
Offline
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,267
Originally Posted by Rhodes74
Originally Posted by CyberGene
...a big gap is this boxy sound, slightly nasal, slightly dull, slightly mono-like

As from a badly miked grand?

I don't know, these things are hard to describe with words. I think the best description so far of this inherent Pianoteq shortcoming has been "piano sound coming from another room". It's improved indeed, as I said, so in version 7.2 Pianoteq (and only NY Steinway D model) is *almost* usable for me. I can really see how other people might find it excellent though. It's just not according to my taste yet.

To summarize, the things that need improvement:
- Sound that is boxy (nasal? coming from another room? lacking stereo feel?)
- Touch response that is not playable by default and would require detailed note-per-note MIDI editing as well as note-per-note volume/timbre modifications
- Reverberation that is not convincing and sounds more like an effect than real space


I'm not around. You can find me here
My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Yamaha N1X, Cybrid DIY hybrid controller
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,280
1000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,280
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I also realize sample based libraries, especially modern ones include multi-mic perspectives that add a very realistic ambience.

This point baffles me completely: how can anything that includes more than two microphone positions lead to a realistic ambience? We only have two ears, and their position relatively to each other is rather fixed. Therefore, a binaural setup should be most realistic, and anything that blends quite different microphone positions together ought to sound very un-realistic.

Unless of course, realistic = sound from professional CD recordings.

That said, I agree that Pianoteq suffers from unrealistic reverb; by now I think it is the major deficiency of Pianoteq.


Roland FP-30, Roland E-28
Galaxy II Grand piano collection, Synthogy Ivory II Studio Grands, Production Voices Estate Grand, Garritan CFX Lite, Pianoteq 7.5.2 (Blüthner, Bechstein DG, Grotrian, Steinway D, K2)
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 73
R
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
R
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 73
Originally Posted by CyberGene
- Sound that is boxy (nasal? coming from another room? lacking stereo feel?)
Again, this whole spacial thing can be addressed by adjusting the mic positions. Did you try that?

Originally Posted by CyberGene
- Touch response that is not playable by default and would require detailed note-per-note MIDI editing as well as note-per-note volume/timbre modifications

C'mon!
I really dig your sophistication, but this one?


-Rodes74

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,267
7000 Post Club Member
Offline
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,267
Originally Posted by Rhodes74
Originally Posted by CyberGene
- Sound that is boxy (nasal? coming from another room? lacking stereo feel?)
Again, this whole spacial thing can be addressed by adjusting the mic positions. Did you try that?

Yes, I experimented with mic presets, as well as moving mics around on the virtual screen. This boxy character stays the same.

Originally Posted by Rhodes74
Originally Posted by CyberGene
- Touch response that is not playable by default and would require detailed note-per-note MIDI editing as well as note-per-note volume/timbre modifications

C'mon!
I really dig your sophistication, but this one?
Not sure what you mean. Do you suggest that I have to make these modifications rather than complaining? If so, well, yes, I agree but I am not highly motivated. I'd be glad if anyone with a N1X who is more dedicated to Pianoteq does that and I just use it. See, I'm trying all my best here to try and evaluate the latest version of Pianoteq but I don't have too much free time to try my best to prepare Pianoteq behaving good in terms of touch response and timbre. Just for instance, I have no such problems with Garritan CFX which is playable by default.

BTW, I sense kind of passive-aggressiveness smile I'm OK with that, but I'd like to point out how I also mentioned my issue with the last two octaves and people didn't really believe me, coming up with suggestions to measure volume vs MIDI and whatnot, while at the same time Modartt fixed it for 7.2. What I mean is, once you overcome the reaction to be against me personally (because you might not like my criticism of Pianoteq), you might realize I am trying to be positive here and give an objective evaluation and provide help to Modartt. I believe I am objective here. Besides, I trust my ears and fingers the most because they have rarely misled me.

Last edited by CyberGene; 02/25/21 09:14 AM.

I'm not around. You can find me here
My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Yamaha N1X, Cybrid DIY hybrid controller
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 73
R
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
R
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 73
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Yes, I experimented with mic presets, as well as moving mics around on the virtual screen. This boxy character stays the same.

Thanks, that was my question.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Rhodes74
Originally Posted by CyberGene
- Touch response that is not playable by default and would require detailed note-per-note MIDI editing as well as note-per-note volume/timbre modifications

C'mon!
I really dig your sophistication, but this one?


BTW, I sense kind of passive-aggressiveness smile I'm OK with that

Sense midleading! I'm normally blamed for being direct.
Just take this reverence as written, nothing between the line.


Originally Posted by CyberGene
What I mean is, once you overcome the reaction to be against me personally (because you might not like my criticism of Pianoteq), you might realize I am trying to be positive here and give an objective evaluation and provide help to Modartt.

What gives you the impression i'm fighting for any product or even against you?
Will take it as misunderstanding rather than insinuation.

I just tried to help because i found the mic parameters to be a possible solution.
And your comment on touch response really surprised me.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
I trust my ears and fingers the most because they have rarely misled me.

Amen. That's your measure*

*(And i did not pronounce "your"!)

-Rhodes74

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,267
7000 Post Club Member
Offline
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,267
All is good! 🍻


I'm not around. You can find me here
My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Yamaha N1X, Cybrid DIY hybrid controller
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 9,766
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 9,766
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Touch response that is not playable by default and would require detailed note-per-note MIDI editing as well as note-per-note volume/timbre modifications

That's the best feature in PTq. Must admit it'd be great to d/l the thing and just play it. You can set the velocity curve by touch, but it never comes out right. best to design you own preferred characteristics so you get a great transition from pp to ff. The nkote by note editing is useful for correcting most inbalances due to whatever reason. It doesn't have to be 100% accurate otherwise it'd never sound like an acoustic.
Detune the piano, whack up the triple string width and resonances, and you're in your favourite pub . . .


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

"[Linked Image]"
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 542
P
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 542
Originally Posted by Fleer
CyberGene’s point regarding reverb is spot on. I use FabFilter Pro-R or even cheap PSP PianoVerb2.

I just downloaded FabFilter Pro-R (trial) to use with pianoteq. Sounds indeed great but I do get a substantial delay when I add this as an fx in my DAW (Reaper). Pianoteq itself only has minimal latency. Is there a way around this for live playing?

Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 542
P
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 542
Disregard my question: I found a predelay buttorn somewhere and was happy that I could set it to zero!

Fleer, do you have recommendations with respect to nice settings?

Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 195
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 195
I apologize if my question has already been answered, but it would take me a while to read through 19 pages of this post, so...

I installed the PTQ 7 trial version on my MacBook Pro last week. Now I'm ready to buy the Standard version, but before I do, I just wanted to clarify the procedure.

My understanding is that I'm going to download the installation file from the "user area" on the Modartt site. When I run the install, does it automagically delete (or overwrite) the trial version, or do I wind up with two PTQ installations? Should I delete the trial version before installing the full version?

TIA!


"I think it's the excitement only a free man can feel; a free man at the start of a long journey, whose conclusion is uncertain." -- Morgan Freeman's character, "Red", in The Shawshank Redemption
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 864
T
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
T
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 864
If I understand it correctly (and someone correct me if I'm wrong), there's just one version installed. It's just that the paid version is fully unlocked compared to the trial version.


Decent bassist; aspiring decent pianist
Present: Roland DP-603, RD-2000, & VR-730; Yamaha MX61; Casio CDP-130
Past: Roland FP-30; Casio PX-160 & PX-830
Etc.: PianoTeq Stage 7 (Bechstein, Bluethner, U4), Roland KC-80
Page 19 of 21 1 2 17 18 19 20 21

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
Piano Buyer - Read the Articles, Explore the website
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Yamaha Disklavier Advice
by efeld23 - 05/21/22 04:13 PM
Playing freely with other Instruments
by alexii - 05/21/22 10:42 AM
Foreign Piano Store Visit
by Damien PG - 05/21/22 07:53 AM
Yamaha x-series from Hamamatsu
by Ek81 - 05/21/22 07:21 AM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums43
Topics213,168
Posts3,193,425
Members105,334
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2022 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5