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Yes, movement to the left means flat compared to the tuning target, and sharp to the right. To hint to that there are b and # symbols on the respective sides of the tuning scale.

What exactly do you mean by "measurement technique"? pianoscope uses fast Fourier transformation with peak correction with a precision of better than 0.01 cents across the scale and a sophisticated algorithm to gather the partials from the spectrum.


Frank Illenberger
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Thanks for the suggestion. I will add a setting for the contrast.


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Oh yes, thank you for reporting this regression, Paul! I fixed it. You can update to the latest version via the TestFlight app.


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In build 367 I increased the default contrast of the tuning strobe and added a setting with which you can increase the contrast even further. You can update to the new build using the TestFlight app.
Thanks for your suggestion!


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Originally Posted by Frank Illenberger
Oh yes, thank you for reporting this regression, Paul! I fixed it. You can update to the latest version via the TestFlight app.

Thanks Frank - the new version auto-installed and I can confirm that issue is fixed!

Cheers,

Paul.

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I will be trying it on a piano this morning. I noticed that in the instrument menu I can name the manufacturer, model and serial number, but I can't edit the name. A touch "New Piano" but nothing happens.

Thanks


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Originally Posted by accordeur
I will be trying it on a piano this morning. I noticed that in the instrument menu I can name the manufacturer, model and serial number, but I can't edit the name. A touch "New Piano" but nothing happens.

Thanks

I was able to set the name when I did "create new ..."

Paul

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Originally Posted by pyropaul
Originally Posted by accordeur
I will be trying it on a piano this morning. I noticed that in the instrument menu I can name the manufacturer, model and serial number, but I can't edit the name. A touch "New Piano" but nothing happens.

Thanks

I was able to set the name when I did "create new ..."

Paul

Yes I just noticed that. I think since I did not put a name when I started the file, I now can't edit it. But I can edit the other parameters.
Off for the day. Thanks


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You can edit the name by renaming the file in the documents browser. This is the standard way of doing it under iOS. I have a short section on this in the manual: https://www.pianoscope.app/manual/en/pianoscope.html#_managing_documents

But I admit, it is confusing to have the disabled text field with the name there. Confusion is not good. I will try to improve this.

Last edited by Frank Illenberger; 03/10/21 10:12 AM.

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The measurement techniques I am aware of are: Direct frequency count, Frequency comparison (strobe technique), and Period Average.


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Ah, now I know what you are referring to. The methods you mention are used for analog / hardware based frequency detection. In software you can apply other methods, which however have their roots in the methods you mention. One is the fourier transformation with which one can determine the spectrum of a sampled signal with very high accuracy. You can imagine a fourier transformation being like a frequency comparison of many, many frequencies at the same time. For the math behind it, here is a nice video giving a good intuition for it:

The accuracy of the fourier transformation is only as good as the accuracy of the AD sampling, which is quite good on Apple hardware. I rarely encountered Apple iPads whose sample precision resulted in an ABSOLUTE frequency error of about 0.7 cents. But the RELATIVE precision is always excellent. If absolute tuning precision is vital for you, you can calibrate pianoscope to give precise results even on those devices. See https://www.pianoscope.app/manual/en/pianoscope.html#_calibration

I am proofing the algorithmic precision of my fourier transformation in pianoscope with automated tests. These synthesize hundreds of test signals out of a mixture of partials of known frequencies and check the error with which the fourier transformation can extract them again.
Overall this results in a precision which is better than 0.01 Cents across the full scale.


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Just a question for the beta trial - can you change from the standard to the pro version for testing? Or is your trial purchase "locked in" once you have made the selection?

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The trial always gives you access to all the features. Features which are only available in the pro version are marked in the menu with [PRO].
There is also a feature comparison page on the website: https://www.pianoscope.app/en/features/comparison

In the beta version however, you do not have to use the trial mode. In the beta, you can simulate the purchase of the standard or pro version without paying anything.

Last edited by Frank Illenberger; 03/10/21 01:55 PM.

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Originally Posted by Frank Illenberger
The trial always gives you access to all the features. Features which are only available in the pro version are marked in the menu with [PRO].
There is also a feature comparison page on the website: https://www.pianoscope.app/en/features/comparison

In the beta version however, you do not have to use the trial mode. In the beta, you can simulate the purchase of the standard or pro version without paying anything.

Sorry for the confusion - there's two uses of the word "trial". I meant "trial" is in "testing the beta" and wondered if you can also upgrade from standard to pro in the beta, or is an individuals testing of the beta tied to the specific "purchase" they made. I was just worried that I only got one chance to simulate a purchase and the next one would be real!

Paul.

Last edited by pyropaul; 03/10/21 04:43 PM. Reason: typo
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isch abe gar keine iPhone!
gibt's das auch für Android?

Last edited by Andymania; 03/10/21 05:11 PM.

excuse my bad english, I'm not native. Corrections are always welcome!
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OK finished a "balanced" tuning of my Hailun 218. IH measurements are basically instantaneous, which in itself is interesting, because as everyone knows IH measurement is usually quite slow on EVERY other tuning program on the market. (Perhaps that aspect of the program could be explained, without of course giving away any trade secrets).

Excellent result, really, I can't complain. I'm a Verituner guy, so the strobe took a little getting used to. I know it's used in many other programs, but I'm used to the Verituner spinner. The strobe combined with the red line indicator make the process pretty seemless, however, once you get used to it.

One quibble: I got the occasional "freeze up" in the middle of tuning a note. Everything just froze. The solution is simple. Just play an alternative note: that seems to bring the program back alive. I had to "lock" notes in while tuning above C7. Otherwise the tuner bounced around too much to other notes not being tuned. I was even able to tune A7 and up with precision, which can be difficult with some programs.

Excuse this question if the answer is in the manual, but is the "balanced" setting relate in any special way to SIZE of the piano? Put it differently: most programs will have settings for small, medium, and large grands; is this program different in that respect?

Last edited by johnlewisgrant; 03/10/21 05:12 PM.

Bach, A Sequenced Well-tempered Clavier Books I & II complete
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Other piano works
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You can safely upgrade in the beta. You won't be charged.


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Yes, the measurements are fast - I went ahead and measured all the way from the bottom up using a mute to just hear one string - watching the graph update was illuminating for the Yamaha GA1 and GH1 that I tuned today.

The program (balanced) really did a good job at making the octaves work going down through the messy break on these instruments. When I switched to pure octave, there was hardly any difference to the tuning curve.

Tried the pitch-raise.. as was stated before, if you've already measured for inharmonicity, the pitch data collected then can be used for the pitch raise pass, so that saves time. It overpulled just a little too much for my hammer technique, so I will play with the control for that.

After a few tunings, I'm getting used to the display - I really like the 'ghost' bars to use along with the red line.

It might help 'older eyes' to have something other than 0 marking the target - bolder, or a line above or something to help see from farther away.

I'd appreciate adding custom temperaments since I hardly tune in ET these days!

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Edit time expired above, so to continue...

I checked the program for what I'll call "consistency of HI measurements": inotherwords, is there significant variability in the IH measurements, one from the next. The answer is NO. I remeasured the Hailun top to bottom, which took NO time at all. And the results were almost identical. That's a very good thing, in my view.

I'm curious about the manual on a related point. I used ONE string only for IH measurements. The manual doesn't specify. Is one string only measurement preferrable?

One other question: does the standard version alow a "precision" curve to be used (as in the pro-version)? Note: I tried both on my piano, and the tuning targets were nearly identical.

Final question: Tunelab pro also starts with an idealized tuning curve, and permits measurements for every note to "Non-idealize" the curve to fit any specific piano. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) How is your program different?

Last edited by johnlewisgrant; 03/10/21 05:59 PM.

Bach, A Sequenced Well-tempered Clavier Books I & II complete
https://soundcloud.app.goo.gl/HYEfX

Other piano works
https://www.youtube.com/c/BachIdealized/playlists




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John, thanks for the great feedback! I am very happy, that you liked the result. On to your observations and questions.

1) The freezes you observed should not occur and should be definitely regarded as a bug. I have experienced them once during my last tuning. I will look into it and try to reproduce it. If you observe them again and discover a pattern in their occurence, please let me know.

2) The bouncing in the note detection in the high treble might be improved as well. It strongly depends on how much resonance is coming from the undamped strings. On my instruments, I mostly do not get this effect. If you like, you can use a hidden debugging feature in the app to record one of these notes and send me the recording for me to analyze. It is pretty easy to do:

- In the tune view, tap ten times on the zero in the middle of the scale. This enables the secret "Debug" item in the more menu.
- Choose the "Debug" item and select "Start Recording"
- Play a treble note which leads to the bouncing.
- Choose the "Debug" item again and select "Stop Recording"
- Chose the "Debug" item again and select "Share Recording" and send the file via E-Mail to support@pianoscope.app

3) The default tuning style is named "Balanced" because it tries to achieve a compromise between pure octaves and twelfths. The other tuning styles prefer individual intervals. You can check the interval weights it uses in the tuning curve view. pianoscope does not need to know the size or kind of the piano as it measures the individual distribution of partials anyway along with the inharmonicities.

4) There is no special secret in measuring the inharmonicity. One could take longer recordings of notes to get better averages, but from my experience, the first 1.5 seconds of a piano sound are quite representative for this purpose. What you may feel is, that I tried to reduce the latency in note detection as much as possible. For doing a fourier transformation you need a certain duration of recorded notes. For high notes, 0.1s may be enough, but to catch the lower partials of bass notes you need >0.4s. To achieve this, tuning apps need a circular buffer in which they keep the recorded audio of the last half second or so. But this buffer also introduces a latency. If you start to play a new note, there is still half a second of previous audio in the buffer. Waiting for it to be flushed out introduces latency which you might feel as sluggishness. I try to detect actual note attack events (which is surprisingly hard if you want to be resilient against background noise) and if one happens, I immediately discard the buffer contents and focus on the most recent audio. I think most other tuning apps do not care to detect attacks. They simply have a permanently streaming buffer.


Frank Illenberger
Pianist and Software Developer
www.pianoscope.app
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