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Originally Posted by Greener
Yes, everything changes. The one thing in life that is certain. Does this mean I should like Bill Evans?
Not. But if you accept the claims that there are different variations of swing, as well as the opinion of the majority (no one can give a complete definition of swing, but everyone notices its absence), then your statement speaks more about your personal taste.


Originally Posted by jjo
Swing as I understand is playing 8th notes with a triplet feel. What that really means is the first of two 8th notes is longer than the second.
This definition probably fits the blues (not sure), but not jazz, not even Oscar Peterson.

https://soundcloud.com/wdcbnews/what-is-swing

https://disk.yandex.ru/d/7tSA3Z4cclYrvg

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In my opinion Bill Evans swings like Bill Evans. Most jazz musician swing in different ways. Bill Evans swing was more modern and not as heavy as the swing of a red Garland or Wynton Kelly although he modeled himself quite a bit on them. Someone like Oscar Peterson, Monty Alexander, Gene Harris, Erroll Garner are pretty heavy swingers. And they have a lot more blues feeling in their playing. Bill Evans sometimes can sound a little stiff in his swing, he was not always consistently at his Best like many of the greats weren’t, they were all human. Evans sounds different to me throughout his career, and Often sounded the best The older he got, in my opinion. I wonder if his physical health and drug use sometimes interfered with his swing.

Here’s a question how was Dave Brubeck’s swing? That’s what I’ve heard criticized
By great players .

Last edited by RinTin; 04/21/21 03:05 AM.

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I love Bill’s swing feel on this later recording. Bill had such a great melodic sense, wonderful harmonic approaches and great time and feel. Beautiful player. Was he the greatest “swinger” ever, I don’t think that was his goal in expression.



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I have thought a lot about swing and I actually attempt to coach people who cannot swing on how to try and swing. I see it is originating back in the blues feeling with the heavy triplet division of the eighth note, played slightly behind the beat, with an underlying accent on the upbeats, and The further edition of occasional accents on some of the strong beats (downbeats) That has evolved over in time to virtually even eighth notes played behind the beat among many modern jazz pianists. Chick Corea is a master of playing even eighth notes behind the beat. I listened extensively to Chick Corea slowed down by 80% and what I heard was virtually even eighth notes and some of the older triplet eighth notes mixed in but Chick lays it behind the pulse of the bass player and drums so that it sounds relaxed and hip. Miles Davis, most all modern Players do it and it’s most apparent at the medium and faster tempo is. When the tempos really fast you have no choice but to play even notes and lay behind the beat which once again gives it a relaxed feeling, listen to Miles Davis. Right on top of the bed and it sounds nervous.
By the way Oscar Peterson tends to play more on top of the beat then a Red Garland. This gives Oscar a more “hot” swing while Red Garland’s more laid back placement has the advantage of a more soulful looser (relaxed yet very grooving)swing.

I think Even eighth notes played behind the pulse might put them into some sort of 64th note triplet offset but that’s too scientific And the brain cannot be conscious of such resolution. So to sum it up lay back and play behind the bass player! When I was younger I tried to line my swing on top of the bass player and it was very awkward and uncomfortable. Nowadays I play my left hand very strict and sometimes practice different degrees of playing behind the beat when I improvise, as a matter fact I like to vary it all the time as a solo nowadays. I was totally unaware of all this sort of analysis when I was a young player and I couldn’t even hear it, but I guess I could feel it somewhat. Nowadays I can hear it in players: those that play on top of the pulse, those who play slightly behind, and those who play way behind the pulse (Miles) and so forth. Erroll Garner is the biggest marvel of all in terms of variable swing time. He had gas pedal time


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Make sure you listen to his soloing around 1:20 in this track, He’s swinging like his life depended on it. What a great swing feel, total master. It makes me feel life is really worth living when I hear such glorious rhythm popping like this.
I know his last rhythm section has said that their job was to keep him from rushing every night but this track is some hot swing! I don’t care if he is a Russian, it’s feels so great, so exuberant.

Last edited by RinTin; 04/21/21 04:01 AM.

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Hi

Did Bill Evans swing - yes.
Did Dave Brubeck swing - yes.

Critics of Dave Brubeck conveniently forget that a lot of his tunes were in odd meters, which are more difficult to swing than standard 4/4. And of course he committed the heinous crime of being a hugely successful Jazz musician.

Jealousy is part of human nature, and sadly it brings out the worst in people.

Cheers


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Bruebeck's 4/4 solo at 2:30, I see what Benny Goodman's pianist meant when he told me Dave swings "like a rusty gate". I don't enjoy his time sense here


Last edited by RinTin; 04/21/21 05:43 AM.
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19:59 A Train, regardless of the wild notes listen to his swing groove. I think its eccentric sounding.


Last edited by RinTin; 04/21/21 05:51 AM.
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Originally Posted by jjo
pianoloverus: From my perspective (surely some will disagree!), there is no dispute that Bill Evans is one of the titans of jazz piano. He played just about exclusively with other jazz musicians, he played jazz standards, his compositions are played by other jazz musicians, and maybe most importantly, his playing is studied by, and is influential on, nearly all jazz pianists that followed him. So it simply can't be denied that he's part of that jazz tradition.

Once you accept that, even if one concludes he doesn't swing, but one loves his playing, he's still, in my view, a great jazz pianist. To conclude that he doesn't swing (based on some definition) and therefore he's a great pianist, but not a jazz pianist, is, in my opinion nonsense given what I've said above. So, to me, there is a very valid discussion about how his style differs from other jazz pianists, and whether this was a good development in jazz or not. But I just don't see how the conclusion that he does or doesn't swing has much of a consequence. It's just a question of whether a particular label can be attached to his playing.
I agree with everything you said. I play transcriptions of many of his ballads and play them because they have great appeal to me. My question was just asked out of curiosity. The description that he doesn't swing that a stride pianist told me maybe around five years ago just popped into my head, and I was curious if those more knowledgeable about jazz then me would agree with it. Even if everyone who responds to this thread agrees about my question one way or the other I will still love Evans' playing.

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Originally Posted by MrShed
IF you have to ask if Bill Evans Swings then you're the one who doesn't understand Swing and needs to do a lot more listening.
In my opening post I clearly stated I know very little about jazz although I have played many note for note jazz transcriptions. I even raised the question about what it means to swing and that this was not clear to me. OTOH what I said a stride pianist told me came from a very experienced jazz musician. And not every poster on this thread has agreed with what you take as obvious.

Based on all the above I find your post outrageously inappropriate and arrogant.

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Originally Posted by RinTin
In my opinion Bill Evans swings like Bill Evans. Most jazz musician swing in different ways. Bill Evans swing was more modern and not as heavy as the swing of a red Garland or Wynton Kelly although he modeled himself quite a bit on them. Someone like Oscar Peterson, Monty Alexander, Gene Harris, Erroll Garner are pretty heavy swingers. And they have a lot more blues feeling in their playing. Bill Evans sometimes can sound a little stiff in his swing, he was not always consistently at his Best like many of the greats weren’t, they were all human. Evans sounds different to me throughout his career, and Often sounded the best The older he got, in my opinion. I wonder if his physical health and drug use sometimes interfered with his swing.
This may be the simplest explanation of what the stride pianist meant when he said Evans didn't swing. He may have been talking about the heavier or different kind of swing you mention.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 04/21/21 08:19 AM.
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Dave B. had no line. It is possible that he had no line because of an auto accident after which he had less dexterity in his hand(s). Dave B. had alot of other good things, when I saw him play at Jazz at Lincoln Center he was about 92 or 3, and he sounded fantastic with lots of piano textures. The only thing at that concert was that there was a fear that he could die during the bass solos of any tune due to his frailty.

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Originally Posted by Dfrankjazz
Dave B. had no line. It is possible that he had no line because of an auto accident after which he had less dexterity in his hand(s). Dave B. had alot of other good things, when I saw him play at Jazz at Lincoln Center he was about 92 or 3, and he sounded fantastic with lots of piano textures. The only thing at that concert was that there was a fear that he could die during the bass solos of any tune due to his frailty.

Funny, but it is a good way to go.


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I love the A Train performance.

This video contains more 'eccentric' Brubeck, and contains one of my favourite solos.



Wouldn't music be dull if we all played in exactly the same way.

Cheers


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To me, swing can come in various degrees. Dixieland, big band and bebop are easy to feel.
Bill Evans style has more going on than looking for the easy foot tap.
Does smooth jazz swing? Kenny G maybe when he swings to the bank.

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Brubeck's music doesn't swing the way jazz "should," but it combines novelty and familiarity in a way that stimulates the brain

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/uncommon-time-dave-brubeck/

Stimulates the Brain there is the catch phrase Every Brubeck concert that I went to I was highly stimulated when I left I always went home and practice

These uneven meters play by slightly different rules than the symmetrical meters," London says. For one, people's brains can't process the unusual meters as quickly as the standard ones, so they can't be performed as quickly. "Uneven beats are perfectly fine, but we can't do it quite as fast as with even beats." They also can't "swing" the way a lot of jazz does. When a piece swings, two eighth notes in succession aren't played evenly; instead, the first is longer than the second. This can make the figure sound like a triplet (with the first two notes slurred together) instead of two eighth notes. "When you're swinging, you're very close to blurring the lines between duplets and triplets,

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Here's my favourite Bill Evans solo, starting at 5:36, seems like they have to move the mics around cause its very low volume at the beginning.

I think it swings. In general I like his early sideman stuff better, like his solo on Miles "Love for Sale" more surprises and creative. His language got more formulaic during the 60s.

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Originally Posted by Dfrankjazz
Dave B. had no line. It is possible that he had no line because of an auto accident after which he had less dexterity in his hand(s). Dave B. had alot of other good things, when I saw him play at Jazz at Lincoln Center he was about 92 or 3, and he sounded fantastic with lots of piano textures. The only thing at that concert was that there was a fear that he could die during the bass solos of any tune due to his frailty.

another good bass solo joke

thanks

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One nice thing about a topic like this, is that it can get one listening to unfamiliar music. I'm enjoying this thread.

I was sad to see Brubeck disregarded as able to "swing". I think the whole argument is a bit goofy. Like who's worthy in the sacred jazz religion of filling those supposed requirements. Jazz is about individuals - not needing to sound like the other individuals. And when someone posted a Brubeck tune from an album I recall owning (maybe I still do?) - I remembered "Limehouse Blues". Brubeck can pound a piano in a percussive drummer sort of way. Very appealing.

And as for Bill Evans. To my mind, he transcends the petty judgements about whether he swung (swinged ? swang ?). Maybe his swinging was less pronounced because he had so much other amazing s-h-i-t he was doing. His command of harmony for one thing. And he could do chord-melody so well. I don't think anyone can squeeze more life out of a ballad like "When I Fall In Love" (for example). Well, maybe Keith Jarrett.

Dave Brubeck - Limehouse Blues.

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It’s not that Bruebeck doesn’t swing, he does, but we could say that he swings like “a rusty gate“. I think it’s fair to say that he simply did not have an elegant effortless sounding swing that you hear in a Wynton Kelly or Red Garland. Which is a big reason why they were the favorites with Miles Davis.


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