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Originally Posted by HZPiano
Originally Posted by MarieJ
I have an ES110 [...] It’s brilliant, but I discovered its limitations as a controller when I first started delving into MIDI settings with Pianoteq Standard. [...] the ES110 is primarily a piano, not a controller.

Out of sincere curiosity, within the piano context, what specific limitations did you discover with the ES110? Other than it having dual instead of triple sensors, I can't think of any from the top of my head.

On the 'piano' side of things, the ES110 has always done everything I wanted it to do. I chose it on the basis of its touch alone, as it is dedicated to use with Pianoteq - the number of sensors was never a consideration.

It was only when I started experimenting with Pianoteq Standard (I wanted to use a 'celeste' pedal as well as the sustain pedal for a specific recording), that I ran into limitations. For anyone interested in the details, there's the thread 'Attempt at creating a felt piano' on Pianoteq's User Forum.


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Sorry, HZ, didn't mean to be waving it away as unimportant, more knowledge is always good. I just thought the prospect of having to have that much knowledge of MIDI before buying one's first board could be a little overwhelming/intimidating, and while helpful, not totally required, at least for piano use. If it were, probably most of the people here would never have purchased their first board. ;-) Since we're not talking about terribly expensive boards here to begin with, my personal inclination would be to find something you like the feel of, jump in, and have fun. Whatever you buy, you're not tied to it for life. Real world experience may be the best teacher of what a particular individual ends up needing anyway. But whichever philosophy Archipelago relates to, between the two of us, I think we've given him plenty of guidance for whichever approach he wants to take!

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Originally Posted by HZPiano
Hello,

@MarieJ quite sensibly advised to check MIDI implementations and I seconded that for, from my own experiences, I know how important that is.

Then, wanting to answer @Archipelago's follow up question about this, I gave quite a bit of my time this evening to write a useful answer. The information in that comment is based on real-world findings; for one thing I'm glad that I did that MIDI homework last year, otherwise I may well have ended up with an instrument that had disappointed me.

I certainly do not second the way @anotherscott waves most of this away as unimportant.

A year ago I knew not very much about MIDI, but as said I did the homework and am glad I did, for now I have a piano setup that acts exactly as I want it to, and I have a proper understanding of how it all works and I can rest assured I know what I am doing and how to fix issues should there be any.

This will do for this conversation as far as I am concerned.

Cheers,

HZ

You comment is much appreciated and not lost at all.

As a newbie in this field I have to consider all arguments and see how much of them I can implement at this stage.

Thanks for taking the time to formulate it in your very interesting post.

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Some people love the operating system way more than the operation.
If you want to play, then just play.

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Originally Posted by OU812
Some people love the operating system way more than the operation.
If you want to play, then just play.

I'm currently on an M-Audio Oxygen 49 - that's as basic as you can get and I still love it.

I just don't want to buy one digital piano and in a year find out I have outgrown it.

I have found a Komplete Kontrol S88 asking price 550$ - I'll see if I can get it down a bit as it's 4-5 years old. But first I want to test a Kawai ES110.

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Hello,

Originally Posted by MarieJ
On the 'piano' side of things, the ES110 has always done everything I wanted it to do. I chose it on the basis of its touch alone, as it is dedicated to use with Pianoteq - the number of sensors was never a consideration.

It was only when I started experimenting with Pianoteq Standard (I wanted to use a 'celeste' pedal as well as the sustain pedal for a specific recording), that I ran into limitations. For anyone interested in the details, there's the thread 'Attempt at creating a felt piano' on Pianoteq's User Forum.

I see! So if I get you right, your problem wasn't in the MIDI implementation itself, but in the lack of a second pedal connection on the ES110?

If you still want to use an extra pedal with your VSTi, I'd suggest to take a look at https://www.audiofront.net/MIDIExpression.php. Best would be to contact Robert Jonkman (owner) with the exact make and model of pedal that you'd want to connect, so he can verify that it'll work. Robert isn't a man of many words but he is definitely helpful.

Cheers and happy pedaling,

HZ

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Hello,

Originally Posted by anotherscott
But whichever philosophy Archipelago relates to, between the two of us, I think we've given him plenty of guidance for whichever approach he wants to take!

Put this way, you make more sense to me, @anotherscott 😉.

Summarizing: In theory, MIDI is a standard, and yes everything should always just work. However, in real life the differences are definitely there. Hadn't I become aware of that in time, last year I might have made the wrong purchase and I sure would have had sore regrets 🤕.

Just hope everyone is aware of these real-world caveats.

Cheers and happy MIDI messaging,

HZ

Last edited by HZPiano; 05/03/21 05:04 AM.
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Hello,

Originally Posted by josh_sounds
As always, great post! Thanks for this, now I could probably have a another reason to justify purchasing an FP-30

You're welcome.

Originally Posted by Archipelago
You comment is much appreciated

You're welcome.

Now go out (while staying safe pandemic-wise) and get 'em, guys.

Cheers and happy shopping,

HZ

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Originally Posted by MarieJ
...I started experimenting with Pianoteq Standard (I wanted to use a 'celeste' pedal as well as the sustain pedal for a specific recording)

On a real upright you press the celeste pedal down and slide it to the side to lock it. You don't touch the celeste pedal while holding any keys down.

On Pianoteq you click the celeste pedal on the screen with the mouse and that's it. Then use the sustain pedal as normal.

Alternatively you can right-click a pedal in Pianoteq and choose some other function for it and e.g. the middle pedal could then trigger the celeste effect, but you'd need to keep it down with your left foot.

On a grand piano...you don't have the celeste functionality.

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Hello,

Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Originally Posted by MarieJ
...I started experimenting with Pianoteq Standard (I wanted to use a 'celeste' pedal as well as the sustain pedal for a specific recording)

On a real upright you press the celeste pedal down and slide it to the side to lock it. You don't touch the celeste pedal while holding any keys down.

On Pianoteq you click the celeste pedal on the screen with the mouse and that's it. Then use the sustain pedal as normal.

Alternatively you can right-click a pedal in Pianoteq and choose some other function for it and e.g. the middle pedal could then trigger the celeste effect, but you'd need to keep it down with your left foot.

On a grand piano...you don't have the celeste functionality.

How nice!

Cheers,

HZ

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Originally Posted by Archipelago
Originally Posted by OU812
Some people love the operating system way more than the operation.
If you want to play, then just play.

I'm currently on an M-Audio Oxygen 49 - that's as basic as you can get and I still love it.

I just don't want to buy one digital piano and in a year find out I have outgrown it.

I have found a Komplete Kontrol S88 asking price 550$ - I'll see if I can get it down a bit as it's 4-5 years old. But first I want to test a Kawai ES110.

smile I am so much this guy! I fiddle more with softwares(DAWs, Sforzando...) and continually hunt for the best free soundfonts/VSTi's to play with on my Roland A49. And with a large grin on my face when I get a good one.


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Originally Posted by josh_sounds
smile I am so much this guy! I fiddle more with softwares(DAWs, Sforzando...) and continually hunt for the best free soundfonts/VSTi's to play with on my Roland A49. And with a large grin on my face when I get a good one.

Have you checked this? https://sites.google.com/site/soundfonts4u/


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Originally Posted by MarieJ
It was only when I started experimenting with Pianoteq Standard (I wanted to use a 'celeste' pedal as well as the sustain pedal for a specific recording), that I ran into limitations. For anyone interested in the details, there's the thread 'Attempt at creating a felt piano' on Pianoteq's User Forum.

How many repetitions can you get with pianoteq + es110.

2 handed, single note.

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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Originally Posted by MarieJ
...I started experimenting with Pianoteq Standard (I wanted to use a 'celeste' pedal as well as the sustain pedal for a specific recording)


On Pianoteq you click the celeste pedal on the screen with the mouse and that's it. Then use the sustain pedal as normal.

Alternatively you can right-click a pedal in Pianoteq and choose some other function for it and e.g. the middle pedal could then trigger the celeste effect, but you'd need to keep it down with your left foot.

If you scroll down to read the relevant posts in that ‘Attempt at creating a felt piano’ Pianoteq User Forum thread, you’d see the problem I encountered. I had no trouble activating the celeste effect via the mouse, and it sounded fine while playing. But the effect disappeared when playing back the recording; it only registered on a recording when triggered by a physical pedal.

I had only one pedal at the time, and I needed that as a sustain pedal. Until I invested in the 3-pedal board configuration, the ES110 lacked the physical controls to do what I wanted.

This is why I recommended checking the manual for each DP on the short list to see whether it meets any MIDI requirements before making a decision. If the OP envisages ever needing the features of a more dedicated controller - pitch wheel, modulation wheel, switches or extra pedals etc - the ES110 would not be the best long-term choice.


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Originally Posted by MarieJ
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Originally Posted by MarieJ
...I started experimenting with Pianoteq Standard (I wanted to use a 'celeste' pedal as well as the sustain pedal for a specific recording)


On Pianoteq you click the celeste pedal on the screen with the mouse and that's it. Then use the sustain pedal as normal.

Alternatively you can right-click a pedal in Pianoteq and choose some other function for it and e.g. the middle pedal could then trigger the celeste effect, but you'd need to keep it down with your left foot.

If you scroll down to read the relevant posts in that ‘Attempt at creating a felt piano’ Pianoteq User Forum thread, you’d see the problem I encountered. I had no trouble activating the celeste effect via the mouse, and it sounded fine while playing. But the effect disappeared when playing back the recording; it only registered on a recording when triggered by a physical pedal.

I had only one pedal at the time, and I needed that as a sustain pedal. Until I invested in the 3-pedal board configuration, the ES110 lacked the physical controls to do what I wanted.

This is why I recommended checking the manual for each DP on the short list to see whether it meets any MIDI requirements before making a decision. If the OP envisages ever needing the features of a more dedicated controller - pitch wheel, modulation wheel, switches or extra pedals etc - the ES110 would not be the best long-term choice.

When you say 'recording' I assume this record would be in an audio format like wav or mp3. With that I suggest VoiceMeter Banana. Set your default output to the program and hit record on the tape deck you see there, then start playing. My theory if you can hear it, VoiceMeter can record it.

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Last edited by josh_sounds; 05/04/21 08:27 AM.

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Originally Posted by josh_sounds
When you say 'recording' I assume this record would be in an audio format like wav or mp3. With that I suggest VoiceMeter Banana. Set your default output to the program and hit record on the tape deck you see there, then start playing. My theory if you can hear it, VoiceMeter can record it.

Voicemeter Banana Features
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Thanks Josh, for your suggestion, but I like to keep things as simple as possible and just looking at the web page for that ‘virtual mixer’ Windows software (I have a Mac) made my head spin. Pianoteq experts have investigated and solved the problem for me, so now it’s back to actually playing. With pedals to spare. smile


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Oh, glad to hear that! Pianoteq problems resolved. smile
Hope you could post a sample of your music...


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Played on Roland FP30x yesterday. It caps out at around ~100 as max MIDI velocity it sends (in the 0-127 range).
As a midi controller FP10 might be an overall passable/okay-ish temporary budget option.

Of course the built-in sounds in FP30x are just embarrassing... and I expected as much, nevertheless it always catches me off guard just how truly awful those built-in DP sounds are, despite the "current year"... Uhh

I'd really like to try P45 (as a MIDI controller option)

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Originally Posted by zenof
Played on Roland FP30x yesterday. It caps out at around ~100 as max MIDI velocity it sends (in the 0-127 range).
As a midi controller FP10 might be an overall passable/okay-ish temporary budget option.

Of course the built-in sounds in FP30x are just embarrassing... and I expected as much, nevertheless it always catches me off guard just how truly awful those built-in DP sounds are, despite the "current year"... Uhh

I'd really like to try P45 (as a MIDI controller option)


Does the FP30X have a "touch sensitivity" control? That's typically what is used on DPs to "unlock" the higher MIDI ranges (it's very common for DPs to max out at about 100-110).

I think the P45 does that as well...also, both being rather basic budget DPs, the manufacturers include some odd limitations/behaviors such as limit the number of half-pedal positions supported, if things like that matter to you from a controller perspective.


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What about the M-Audio Hammer 88.

Many studios now use it. I'm going to try one out this week.

Roland and Casio is out and so is the Korg B2. Not for me.

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