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For four months I have been practicing piano daily on pianomarvel and now I need an 88-key midi controller or midi-capable digital piano - the sound is created by the app connecting to the site.

My goals are learning classical piano and doing electronic music and soundscapes, particularly for my short films (I'm a photographer and filmmaker by profession and cannot stand music stock libraries)

Playback is via a MacBook Pro and M-Audio AV-40 speakers

I have tested a few digital pianos, the problem was that the guitar center installed the Yamahas at chin height and the Roland ten inches below waist so it was difficult to test.

1. Yamaha P-45 and P-125. I liked the keyboard action best from what I tested. Very responsive. My question is if the P-45 is OK as midi controller. I read somewhere here on this site that the P-45 is not good as a midi controller and would be too sluggish and I would have to get the P-125. Is this correct?

2. Roland PF-30X. After reading the reviews and seeing the great looks I thought this would be it, but I felt the action was not for me - for me it felt a bit indirect and the keys took long to come up again for playing the same note again.

3. Korg B2... I had literally no impression from this one. No like, no dislike....

In regard to sound I wasn't impressed by any of them and I prefer a computer to create the piano sound.

I didn't get around, unfortunately, to the Kawai ES 110 - what's your take on this one?



What about Midi controllers? Some have hammer action.


I researched and found the following - but didn't test any so far : please comment:

1. M-Audio Hammer 88 (reviewers said it has a very direct action) Same price as a Yamaha P-45.

2. Studiologic SL 88 Grand with Fatar 40 wooden keybed and hammer action. I read there are quality issues with this keyboard (like stuck keys) not sure if this is still valid or ever was, the Grand is expensive, costs a grand.

3. Studiologic SL 88 Studio no hammer action

4. Arturia Keylab 88 mark2 with hammer action (also 1000$)

5. Komplete Kontrol S88 - while it is also a hammer action keyboard I read it's not as good an action as the SL 88 Grand. Costs a grand, too.



My personal preference was to buy a used digital piano first and then spend more money when I'm more experienced, but the asking prices of 450 for a Yamaha 45 and 500 for a 125 is just pointless. It's as if people in LA think their old keyboards are made of gold - appreciating with age.

I only found an old Studiologic SL 990 pro for an asking price of $ 325.00 - the owner said it had a sticky key but now he can't find the sticky key no longer. Would this be an option for now? (If that sticky key is truly gone?)

Comments, tips, suggestions much appreciated !

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Originally Posted by Archipelago
I read somewhere here on this site that the P-45 is not good as a midi controller and would be too sluggish and I would have to get the P-125. Is this correct?

They both have the same key action ("GHS" as they call it), so that doesn't make sense.

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Hello,

Last fall I was on a similar search. I can share a few impressions from my own selection process.

As @clothearednincompo said, the reason to disregard the P45 cannot be its keybed. However, its MIDI implementation is too limited (e.g. poor velocity readings and range) to make it a good piano controller. The P125 is better in that aspect.

If you're serious about piano, I'd no longer look at the MIDI controller category. They are relatively expensive compared to digital pianos, and their keybeds--for serious piano playing--are sub-par at best and unpleasantly noisy in many cases.

My choice turned out to be the Roland FP-10, with the same keybed as the FP-30X and with great MIDI behavior. I would certainly recommend one of these Rolands as a good MIDI piano. But you already established that this action is not for you.

Then, filtering your post further, it seems as if for you it boils down to the P125 which you like best so far, and do a thorough comparison at one or two good stores with the ES110. I'd not be surprised if your preference would then land on the Kawai.

Three last tips:
- Try before you buy;
- Try before you buy;
- Try before you buy.

In that order 😉.

Cheers and happy decision making,

HZ

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I would check what you are trying to achieve. I got the SL88 Grand yesterday and it's basically a great instrument but has flaws (for me). The key action is heavy, similar to a CLP-685 but without the initial resistance. The second is its default velocity curve. You have smack the keys very hard and don't reach the 127. The highest i could reach was around 80 - 90. You can edit the curve with the SL Editor, so fiddling around with it is necessary to find the sweet spot. The build quality is great. I will return it because i don't like the heavy keys.

I still own a Yamaha P-115 for use as Midi Controller and it does its job. The action isn't stellar but playable. Therefore i would also suggest one of the usual suspects:

- Roland FP30X
- Yamaha P-125
- Kawai ES-110


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I would add a Korg D1 to the evaluation list, and also Casios. It's subjective, but in this price range, I prefer the Casios to the Yamahas and Rolands, at least. There are two categories of 88-key Casios to look at... the ones with an S in their model name, and the ones without. The ones with the S are newer and generally lower-priced, with the improvements being a quieter action with less bounce and in a smaller cabinet, though some people prefer the older non-S models that feel more consistent to the rear of the keys and have 3 sensors vs. 2.

As for a sub-$1k soundless controller, I don't think any of them are any better than the models with sounds, except maybe the SL88 Grand. But even that is subjective. I haven't played the M-Audio boards, opinions about those are mixed. Though I guess opinions about all of them are mixed. ;-)

BTW, it is incorrect that the SL88 Studio does not have hammer action, it does. It actually uses the same Fatar TP100 action that some of the other (more expensive) soundless controllers listed use. Generally not considered an especially good action, though.

If you come across a Kurzweil SP1, that is yet another different action you could consider.

I was not aware of any difference in the MIDI suitability of the P45 and P125, that was news to me.

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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Originally Posted by Archipelago
I read somewhere here on this site that the P-45 is not good as a midi controller and would be too sluggish and I would have to get the P-125. Is this correct?

They both have the same key action ("GHS" as they call it), so that doesn't make sense.

I think the person didn't refer to the keyboard action but to the electronics.

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Originally Posted by HZPiano
Hello,

Last fall I was on a similar search. I can share a few impressions from my own selection process.

As @clothearednincompo said, the reason to disregard the P45 cannot be its keybed. However, its MIDI implementation is too limited (e.g. poor velocity readings and range) to make it a good piano controller. The P125 is better in that aspect.

If you're serious about piano, I'd no longer look at the MIDI controller category. They are relatively expensive compared to digital pianos, and their keybeds--for serious piano playing--are sub-par at best and unpleasantly noisy in many cases.

My choice turned out to be the Roland FP-10, with the same keybed as the FP-30X and with great MIDI behavior. I would certainly recommend one of these Rolands as a good MIDI piano. But you already established that this action is not for you.

Then, filtering your post further, it seems as if for you it boils down to the P125 which you like best so far, and do a thorough comparison at one or two good stores with the ES110. I'd not be surprised if your preference would then land on the Kawai.

Three last tips:
- Try before you buy;
- Try before you buy;
- Try before you buy.

In that order 😉.

Cheers and happy decision making,

HZ


Thanks, I will definitely look at the Kawai. Too bad the P-45 is out. It has a more minimalist look than the P-125. Yes, the midi controllers are insanely expensive.

Even though I'm already stuck in some exercises as I can't advance without a larger keyboard I'll put testing time into it as I spend quite some time at the keyboard.

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Hello,

Originally Posted by Archipelago
I'll put testing time into it

That is the wise way to go.

Others have suggested the Korg D1 as well. While there's a lot to like about it, to me it has a considerable deal-breaker for serious piano playing/learning. Here's my adventure with the Korg:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...med-cant-choose-a-piano.html#Post3095844

Cheers and happy testing,

HZ

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Originally Posted by Tyr
I would check what you are trying to achieve. I got the SL88 Grand yesterday and it's basically a great instrument but has flaws (for me). The key action is heavy, similar to a CLP-685 but without the initial resistance. The second is its default velocity curve. You have smack the keys very hard and don't reach the 127. The highest i could reach was around 80 - 90. You can edit the curve with the SL Editor, so fiddling around with it is necessary to find the sweet spot. The build quality is great. I will return it because i don't like the heavy keys.

I still own a Yamaha P-115 for use as Midi Controller and it does its job. The action isn't stellar but playable. Therefore i would also suggest one of the usual suspects:

- Roland FP30X
- Yamaha P-125
- Kawai ES-110

Thank you, this is great information. For me event the Roland FP-30x has too heavy and action so the SL Grand would be no good (It's actually a tough one to get even to try out these midi controllers anywhere - I read on a lengthy forum post where someone called up many many shops in the LA area and nobody had any of the higher end midi controllers on sale.

I like a very responsive action as it transfers emotions better.

And I will definitely check out the Kawai.

(If only the guitar center wouldn't mount them on walls where you have to reach up or down to try them out -and they are mounted at an angle as well)

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Hello,

Originally Posted by Archipelago
(If only the guitar center wouldn't mount them on walls where you have to reach up or down to try them out -and they are mounted at an angle as well)

That is silly. To get a good feel for any instrument, you need it (and yourself) to be in a proper playing position. So if that guitar center takes you serious as a customer, they'll have to take down the instruments you're seriously interested in, and place them on proper stands and at the right height, with a bench to match. And give you plenty of time with those instruments.

If they don't, they're not worth your business--look for better/specialized stores to help you instead.

Cheers and happy shopping,

HZ

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Originally Posted by anotherscott
I would add a Korg D1 to the evaluation list, and also Casios. It's subjective, but in this price range, I prefer the Casios to the Yamahas and Rolands, at least. There are two categories of 88-key Casios to look at... the ones with an S in their model name, and the ones without. The ones with the S are newer and generally lower-priced, with the improvements being a quieter action with less bounce and in a smaller cabinet, though some people prefer the older non-S models that feel more consistent to the rear of the keys and have 3 sensors vs. 2.

As for a sub-$1k soundless controller, I don't think any of them are any better than the models with sounds, except maybe the SL88 Grand. But even that is subjective. I haven't played the M-Audio boards, opinions about those are mixed. Though I guess opinions about all of them are mixed. ;-)

BTW, it is incorrect that the SL88 Studio does not have hammer action, it does. It actually uses the same Fatar TP100 action that some of the other (more expensive) soundless controllers listed use. Generally not considered an especially good action, though.

If you come across a Kurzweil SP1, that is yet another different action you could consider.

I was not aware of any difference in the MIDI suitability of the P45 and P125, that was news to me.

I have heard quite a few bad things about M-Audio's product quality.

I currently have an Oxygen midi controller by M-Audio and even though I'm hitting keys very hard (otherwise you don't get any accent on this cheapie) it has so far not shown any problems. The same goes for the AV-40 speakers I have had for years and others posted reviews of them going out within a year.

But when I check out what people are talking about when they like a keyboard I have seen few voices for the M-Audio.

Many love the Roland FP-30 (the FP 10 is I think discontinued) and it's not my thing.


Thanks for the tip with the Casios and the Korg D1. Keyboard action is my decider. It has to feel right for me. And of course I will avoid semi-weighed keys.

A tri-sensor system would be nice but I read repeatedly that for a beginning player it's not so important.


What's your take on buying an old controller like the STudiologic sl990?

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The Korg D1 has no USB connection and one needs to buy a separate USB-midi interface.

Could this cause a problem in latency?

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Hello,

Originally Posted by Archipelago
The Korg D1 has no USB connection and one needs to buy a separate USB-midi interface.

Could this cause a problem in latency?

Latency wouldn't be a problem. I tested the D1 (please see my post above) and those 5-pin MIDI connections work nicely.

The Kawai ES110 also only has 5-pin MIDI. In combination with a USB audio Interface that also has these MIDI connections, as many do, that will work just fine.

Cheers,

HZ

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Originally Posted by Archipelago
I think the person didn't refer to the keyboard action but to the electronics.

Maybe. But then the word "sluggish" is a strange choice. 😀

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Originally Posted by HZPiano
Originally Posted by Archipelago
The Korg D1 has no USB connection and one needs to buy a separate USB-midi interface.

Could this cause a problem in latency?

Latency wouldn't be a problem. I tested the D1 (please see my post above) and those 5-pin MIDI connections work nicely.

The Kawai ES110 also only has 5-pin MIDI. In combination with a USB audio Interface that also has these MIDI connections, as many do, that will work just fine.
Yes... in fact, you probably don't even need a USB audio interface, unless you'll be recording audio. On a Mac, you should get great results by just plugging your keyboard into USB and taking audio from the heapdhone jack. If your keyboard has USB, it's just a USB cable. If it's 5-pin MIDI, you just get a 5-pin-MIDI-to-USB interface, like a Roland UM-One or an iConnectivity mio 1x1. As HZP said, latency is not an issue there.

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Originally Posted by HZPiano
Originally Posted by Archipelago
(If only the guitar center wouldn't mount them on walls where you have to reach up or down to try them out -and they are mounted at an angle as well)

That is silly. To get a good feel for any instrument, you need it (and yourself) to be in a proper playing position.
Not only that, but the hammer mechanisms depend on gravity. Unlike non-hammer actions, the key return will not be right if the action is substantially away from level. (In fact, if you tilted it enough the keys would stop returning entirely.)

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Hello,

Originally Posted by anotherscott
Not only that, but the hammer mechanisms depend on gravity. Unlike non-hammer actions, the key return will not be right if the action is substantially away from level. (In fact, if you tilted it enough the keys would stop returning entirely.)

Great additional observation @anotherscott!

Cheers and happy leveling,

HZ

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I didn't describe it well, but you got the idea. ;-)

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Hello,

Originally Posted by anotherscott
I didn't describe it well

Not bad at all!

Cheers,

HZ

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Originally Posted by HZPiano
Hello,

Originally Posted by Archipelago
(If only the guitar center wouldn't mount them on walls where you have to reach up or down to try them out -and they are mounted at an angle as well)

That is silly. To get a good feel for any instrument, you need it (and yourself) to be in a proper playing position. So if that guitar center takes you serious as a customer, they'll have to take down the instruments you're seriously interested in, and place them on proper stands and at the right height, with a bench to match. And give you plenty of time with those instruments.

If they don't, they're not worth your business--look for better/specialized stores to help you instead.

Cheers and happy shopping,

HZ

It's all about marketing. Its slanted so they let you 'see' the items they're selling without having to take it down. Now you have to sell the idea that you are a serious buyer and ask for it so you can test it out, smile Most employees in these stores are paid the same salary whether they sell you anything or bother to help you at all...


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Originally Posted by HZPiano
Hello,

Originally Posted by anotherscott
I didn't describe it well

Not bad at all!
...

No worries anotherscott, I got it too! smile


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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by HZPiano
Originally Posted by Archipelago
(If only the guitar center wouldn't mount them on walls where you have to reach up or down to try them out -and they are mounted at an angle as well)

That is silly. To get a good feel for any instrument, you need it (and yourself) to be in a proper playing position.
Not only that, but the hammer mechanisms depend on gravity. Unlike non-hammer actions, the key return will not be right if the action is substantially away from level. (In fact, if you tilted it enough the keys would stop returning entirely.)

This is great information. I will have to find a source that actually knows how to present electric pianos. I have the impression that guitar center isn't a very good place to buy a keyboard...

(On Reddit there are discussions - from people who said they had worked there) that guitar centers sells returned items as new - can't tell if this is correct or fired employee revenge...

The problem is that in the LA area only guitar center has Rolands on display.

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Originally Posted by Archipelago
The Korg D1 has no USB connection and one needs to buy a separate USB-midi interface.

Could this cause a problem in latency?
Yes, absolutely.

5pin-DIN midi to USB convertors add latency.
Cheap ones can add massive latency.

Even the more expensive, higher quality ones like Roland UM-ONE (47eur on Thomann), will add 1-2ms of extra latency.
Which isn't much, but it all adds up!

If your audio interface has 5-pin DIN midi inputs, then that's fine, but getting audio interface which has good drivers that don't add extra latency isn't easy (if you just dont shell out for a RME).

So I would highly recommend to avoid introducing anything into the signal chain which adds extra latency.

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I have a M-Audio Midi sport UNO:

PC-> Midi-Sport -> piano -> Midi-Sport -> PC

The piano is used with the thru port then add no latency. The round trip time for a short event is 3ms. The MIDI path is 1ms (given the baudrate and the number of bits). Then the Midi-Sport only add 1ms one way and 1ms in the other way (roughly). Then yes, there us an added latency but not that much.

Cheap MIDI-USB interfaces (typically $5) should also be avoided because they are not reliable : some flip some bits, some can’t send SysEx reliably, some omit the required opto isolator.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 04/30/21 05:49 AM.

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The question is not whether using a 5-pin MIDI DIN interface adds latency, it's whether it inherently adds MORE latency than the alternative, i.e. using a USB connection.

MIDI itself has a 1 ms per event latency that can't be avoided. ("Round trip" latency is not an issue if you're just using a board to trigger a piano VST.)

I didn't think using the 5-pin connection would introduce any more latency than using a USB connection, but after googling, I think that's not the case. From what I can quickly discern I believe the answer is:

* 5-pin from the keyboard into 5-pin in another device is best... you can't get any lower latency than that... but the computer doesn't have a "native" 5-pin input, so that isn't an option for a VST.

* USB from the keyboard into USB port of computer is next best from the latency perspective... latency isn't necessarily worse, but it can be worse.

* inserting any conversion between the two can add a small amount of additional latency.

That said, using the 5-pin MIDI connection of the keyboard avoids other potential problems of USB. It eliminates the possibility of noise from ground loops (though there are ways to address that problem with USB if you run into it), and you can run much longer cable lengths without running into problems (so if you have long distances and must do the conversion, run long MIDI cables, and keep the "USB converted" part of it short). The physical connections are also more rugged.

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Surely, the round trip time is not the issue, but I can’t measure easily a one way delay. The RTT can however gives some hint about the input latency.

We have to take into account that a USB device can’t emit anything to the USB link until the host (PC) gives the right to emit. On USB1, the PC ask every millisecond if there are something new. Then we can have a 1ms delay because the device wait the PC signal.


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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Surely, the round trip time is not the issue, but I can’t measure easily a one way delay. The RTT can however gives some hint about the input latency.

We have to take into account that a USB device can’t emit anything to the USB link until the host (PC) gives the right to emit. On USB1, the PC ask every millisecond if there are something new. Then we can have a 1ms delay because the device wait the PC signal.

Where have your read that?

A USB 2.1 cable has a data transfer rate of 480 Mbps thats Mega Bits per second or 480,000 Mega Bits per millisecond. The USB over MIDI protocol takes advantage of this and is hundreds of times faster than MIDI's original speed. And with a bandwidth so wide that you could put multiple midi ports in one USB. If you can still perceive any delay, your probably hundred times more sensitive than the rest of us.


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What? 480 Mbps = 480,000 Mega Bits per millisecond?

No! You've overstated the data rate by a factor of 1,000,000 !!!

480 Mbps = 480 Mega bits per second!

But for MIDI purposes it just doesn't matter much.
The old spec using the old DIN cables could send at 31250 bps, which means one complete (3-byte) MIDI note in just under 1 msec.

There can be some benefit by going a bit quicker. But there's no need to get to even 1 Mbps, never mind 480 Mbps.
Your fingers can't play that fast. Even Liszt could not!

Don't fall prey to the "more is better" mantra.
It's more appropriate to recognize that more is better ... until it isn't better anymore.

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Originally Posted by Archipelago
(On Reddit there are discussions - from people who said they had worked there) that guitar centers sells returned items as new - can't tell if this is correct or fired employee revenge...

I had one such from Sweetwater :-) so this is probably true.

It was not a piano but a sonic bar. The moment I opened the package, I knew this was a repackaged one. The wrapping was torn in places and taped up with some non-standard tape. The user manual was taken out of its protective cover and replaced. The power cord didn't have the usual wrapping. I took photos and immediately sent it to the "sales engineer." I got a call and they were very apologetic and acknowledged a mixup, though they couldn't give any specifics. The money was refunded immediately, even before they could send me a return label. The last part was very professional of them, although the mixup is not their finest moment. I suspected the mixup was putting them up as Open Box/B-Stock vs. New.


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Perhaps you need to decide just how ‘MIDI-capable’ you need your digital piano to be. I have an ES110 (originally with only a single pedal) bought specifically for recording. It’s brilliant, but I discovered its limitations as a controller when I first started delving into MIDI settings with Pianoteq Standard. I was able to achieve the extra control I needed for a specific project by buying the 3-pedal bar, but the ES110 is primarily a piano, not a controller.

I’d recommend you check the manual for each DP on your short list to see whether it meets your MIDI requirements before making your decision. smile


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Originally Posted by MarieJ
Perhaps you need to decide just how ‘MIDI-capable’ you need your digital piano to be. I have an ES110 (originally with only a single pedal) bought specifically for recording. It’s brilliant, but I discovered its limitations as a controller when I first started delving into MIDI settings with Pianoteq Standard. I was able to achieve the extra control I needed for a specific project by buying the 3-pedal bar, but the ES110 is primarily a piano, not a controller.

I’d recommend you check the manual for each DP on your short list to see whether it meets your MIDI requirements before making your decision. smile

Thanks, MarieJ, I don't have a MIDI requirement list because I'm pretty much at the beginning of this acoustic journey.

I discovered a certain liking for high quality midi keyboards with hammer action Fatar keybeds which are all a bit out of my current budget.

I'm thinking of maybe getting a very simple 88 keyboard so I can continue my piano lessons and buy something good later. Spending 750$ on something that has serious downsides... maybe I should rather buy a semi-weighed keyboard and buy something like the Yamaha 515 or a Kawai equivalent or a Studiologic Grand in a year or so.

The ES110 is on my list even though I haven't been able to find a demo sample yet.

People seem to have bought up everything - in six months I predict a wave of used, low-priced digital pianos when the Covid holidays are over.

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Hello,

Originally Posted by MarieJ
I have an ES110 [...] It’s brilliant, but I discovered its limitations as a controller when I first started delving into MIDI settings with Pianoteq Standard. [...] the ES110 is primarily a piano, not a controller.

Out of sincere curiosity, within the piano context, what specific limitations did you discover with the ES110? Other than it having dual instead of triple sensors, I can't think of any from the top of my head.

Originally Posted by MarieJ
I’d recommend you check the manual for each DP on your short list to see whether it meets your MIDI requirements before making your decision. smile

This is truly sound advice to anyone on the purchase trail. Luckily I did this, for some of the pianos on my list failed the moment I consulted the 'MIDI implementation' pages in their respective manuals.

Cheers and happy playing,

HZ

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Originally Posted by HZPiano
Hello,

Originally Posted by MarieJ
I have an ES110 [...] It’s brilliant, but I discovered its limitations as a controller when I first started delving into MIDI settings with Pianoteq Standard. [...] the ES110 is primarily a piano, not a controller.

Out of sincere curiosity, within the piano context, what specific limitations did you discover with the ES110? Other than it having dual instead of triple sensors, I can't think of any from the top of my head.

Originally Posted by MarieJ
I’d recommend you check the manual for each DP on your short list to see whether it meets your MIDI requirements before making your decision. smile

This is truly sound advice to anyone on the purchase trail. Luckily I did this, for some of the pianos on my list failed the moment I consulted the 'MIDI implementation' pages in their respective manuals.

Cheers and happy playing,

HZ

What exactly do you check in regards to MIDI requirements? Throughput numbers? I don't have enough information to place this recommendation.

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Hello,

Originally Posted by Archipelago
What exactly do you check in regards to MIDI requirements?

The really long answer to this would be... well... really long. So I'll try to give you some hints (already long-ish).

First of all, be clear on what you require your controller to do well. Note: if you buy a digital piano as a controller, and want to also be able to send MIDI to the piano to be played through its internal sounds, there is a two-way stream to consider.

MIDI is a stream of messages (a.k.a. 'events'), each containing a 'command' (a.k.a. 'status'), a key number and a value. Generally speaking, that is. So you want your controller/piano to be able to send (and in the two-way case also receive) the commands and values/value ranges as you need them to be. Manuals have, or should have, tables (usually in an appendix) showing you the 'MIDI Implementation' for the respective controller/piano. If applicable, you see columns for the outbound as well as inbound MIDI messages (which by the way can differ quite a bit).

So for instance. A modern MIDI implementation uses separate commands for note-on and note-off. Older implementations (e.g. as found on the Yamaha P45) use the note-on command for note-off messages as well, with a velocity value of 0 (zero) indicating the note-off. While this usually still works today, in such a configuration you could never send a note-off velocity to your VST. With the separate note-off command, all velocities can be sent (only if actually implemented!), such as e.g. the Roland FP series do (and many others nowadays, as I assume/would hope).

Concerning pedals, does the controller/piano send on/off only? Or a mid-position value as well? Or a proper continuously variable 0--127 range? Which pedals are implemented (sustain a.k.a. damper/sostenuto/una corda a.k.a. soft/and possibly others)?

Concerning aftertouch (although seldomly found in digital pianos, if at all), is it 'per key' or is it on/off for the whole keyboard at once?

So with this I hope to convey that there are many details (the ones I mention here are just a few, albeit important ones) to carefully consider when it comes to each specific controller/piano's MIDI behavior. It really demands and deserves careful study and consideration.

One last caveat: The implementation tables can't and/or don't tell the whole story. Again with the P45 as an example: the table may tell you the velocities are in the range 1--127. Unfortunately that doesn't mean that the piano actually sends out neat gradual velocity messages using all of the fine grain this range would/should offer. Instead, the range may be limited in reality, often not exploiting the upper part of the range and sometimes coarsely 'stepping' through a limited number of velocity values that are actually used.

The latter can only be learned through testing and/or, as I did, from... drumroll... fellow Piano Worlders.

Cheers and happy studying,

HZ

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OTOH... if you're just using it to play piano, anything you like the feel of will work fine. ;-)

I think this MIDI sidetrack is s bit overblown, and should not scare you off. Just to play a software-based piano, you don't have to know anything about any of it.

If you want to have three pedals, buy a piano that has an attachment for three pedals. The MIDI will take care of itself.

If you want to be able to do partial sustain pedaling, buy a piano that has that feature. The MIDI will take care of itself.

IOW, buy the piano you want, that has the features you want. There's no need to be analyzing MIDI implementation charts for this.

The only point above that I think could have relevance is whether a keyboard sends release velocity, there are piano VSTs that will take advantage of that... though I'm not sure which if any low-cost board can send it anyway. But that brings me to...

Originally Posted by HZPiano
Older implementations (e.g. as found on the Yamaha P45) use the note-on command for note-off messages as well, with a velocity value of 0 (zero) indicating the note-off. While this usually still works today, in such a configuration you could never send a note-off velocity to your VST.
It doesn't "usually" work today, it always does. It's part of the MIDI spec and is required. It is not newer or older; the equivalence between Note On of 0 and Note Off has existed since the dawn of MIDI. Though you are correct that a board that sends release velocity needs to use the Note Off approach. For a board that does not send release velocity, it doesn't matter which they use, neither is older/newer or better/worse than the other. You're right that the P45 send Note Off by sending Note On velocity 0... the P125 sends it as Note Off velocity 64... but the two will create the same result. Neither sends different release velocity information based on how you play, and absent that, the two approaches are equivalent.

Originally Posted by HZPiano
Concerning aftertouch (although seldomly found in digital pianos, if at all), is it 'per key' or is it on/off for the whole keyboard at once?
Whole keyboard ("channel") aftertouch is at least available on some hammer action controllers, even though it doesn't do anything when simply using it to play piano. Howver, AFAIK, there are no hammer-action "per key" (aka "polyphonic") aftertouch keyboards currently in production. I don't think there have been any this century!

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Originally Posted by HZPiano
Hello,

Originally Posted by Archipelago
What exactly do you check in regards to MIDI requirements?

The really long answer to this would be... well... really long. So I'll try to give you some hints (already long-ish).

First of all, be clear on what you require your controller to do well. Note: if you buy a digital piano as a controller, and want to also be able to send MIDI to the piano to be played through its internal sounds, there is a two-way stream to consider.

MIDI is a stream of messages (a.k.a. 'events'), each containing a 'command' (a.k.a. 'status'), a key number and a value. Generally speaking, that is. So you want your controller/piano to be able to send (and in the two-way case also receive) the commands and values/value ranges as you need them to be. Manuals have, or should have, tables (usually in an appendix) showing you the 'MIDI Implementation' for the respective controller/piano. If applicable, you see columns for the outbound as well as inbound MIDI messages (which by the way can differ quite a bit).

So for instance. A modern MIDI implementation uses separate commands for note-on and note-off. Older implementations (e.g. as found on the Yamaha P45) use the note-on command for note-off messages as well, with a velocity value of 0 (zero) indicating the note-off. While this usually still works today, in such a configuration you could never send a note-off velocity to your VST. With the separate note-off command, all velocities can be sent (only if actually implemented!), such as e.g. the Roland FP series do (and many others nowadays, as I assume/would hope).

Concerning pedals, does the controller/piano send on/off only? Or a mid-position value as well? Or a proper continuously variable 0--127 range? Which pedals are implemented (sustain a.k.a. damper/sostenuto/una corda a.k.a. soft/and possibly others)?

Concerning aftertouch (although seldomly found in digital pianos, if at all), is it 'per key' or is it on/off for the whole keyboard at once?

So with this I hope to convey that there are many details (the ones I mention here are just a few, albeit important ones) to carefully consider when it comes to each specific controller/piano's MIDI behavior. It really demands and deserves careful study and consideration.

One last caveat: The implementation tables can't and/or don't tell the whole story. Again with the P45 as an example: the table may tell you the velocities are in the range 1--127. Unfortunately that doesn't mean that the piano actually sends out neat gradual velocity messages using all of the fine grain this range would/should offer. Instead, the range may be limited in reality, often not exploiting the upper part of the range and sometimes coarsely 'stepping' through a limited number of velocity values that are actually used.

The latter can only be learned through testing and/or, as I did, from... drumroll... fellow Piano Worlders.

Cheers and happy studying,

HZ

Thanks. So basically there aren't any true tables and you need to study the implementation technology. Someone had mentioned the P-45 being outdated so I took it off my list (even though it was on it because I like its keyboard)

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Originally Posted by anotherscott
OTOH... if you're just using it to play piano, anything you like the feel of will work fine. ;-)

I think this MIDI sidetrack is s bit overblown, and should not scare you off. Just to play a software-based piano, you don't have to know anything about any of it.

If you want to have three pedals, buy a piano that has an attachment for three pedals. The MIDI will take care of itself.

If you want to be able to do partial sustain pedaling, buy a piano that has that feature. The MIDI will take care of itself.

IOW, buy the piano you want, that has the features you want. There's no need to be analyzing MIDI implementation charts for this.

The only point above that I think could have relevance is whether a keyboard sends release velocity, there are piano VSTs that will take advantage of that... though I'm not sure which if any low-cost board can send it anyway. But that brings me to...

Originally Posted by HZPiano
Older implementations (e.g. as found on the Yamaha P45) use the note-on command for note-off messages as well, with a velocity value of 0 (zero) indicating the note-off. While this usually still works today, in such a configuration you could never send a note-off velocity to your VST.
It doesn't "usually" work today, it always does. It's part of the MIDI spec and is required. It is not newer or older; the equivalence between Note On of 0 and Note Off has existed since the dawn of MIDI. Though you are correct that a board that sends release velocity needs to use the Note Off approach. For a board that does not send release velocity, it doesn't matter which they use, neither is older/newer or better/worse than the other. You're right that the P45 send Note Off by sending Note On velocity 0... the P125 sends it as Note Off velocity 64... but the two will create the same result. Neither sends different release velocity information based on how you play, and absent that, the two approaches are equivalent.

Originally Posted by HZPiano
Concerning aftertouch (although seldomly found in digital pianos, if at all), is it 'per key' or is it on/off for the whole keyboard at once?
Whole keyboard ("channel") aftertouch is at least available on some hammer action controllers, even though it doesn't do anything when simply using it to play piano. Howver, AFAIK, there are no hammer-action "per key" (aka "polyphonic") aftertouch keyboards currently in production. I don't think there have been any this century!

Thanks, I had replied already when your post came in.

So would you advise against a p-45 (the keyboard, not the world war II fighter airplane)?

Don't the Arturia Keylab mark II and the Komplete Kontrol S 88 have aftertouch?

I really like the Arturia but I couldn't get to try it out so far and I heard it has a very "slow" or mushy keyboard.

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Originally Posted by Archipelago
So would you advise against a p-45
If you like the feel of the P45, I think it's fine. For triggering piano VSTs/apps, I think the only advantage of the P-125 is that it has an optional triple pedal.

Originally Posted by Archipelago
Don't the Arturia Keylab mark II and the Komplete Kontrol S 88 have aftertouch?
Yes. Channel aftertouch (affecting all notes equally), not polyphonic aftertouch which (is activated key by key). Neither applies to piano playing, but can be useful for other things.

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Originally Posted by HZPiano
Hello,

Originally Posted by Archipelago
What exactly do you check in regards to MIDI requirements?

The really long answer to this would be... well... really long. So I'll try to give you some hints (already long-ish).

First of all, be clear on what you require your controller to do well. Note: if you buy a digital piano as a controller, and want to also be able to send MIDI to the piano to be played through its internal sounds, there is a two-way stream to consider.

MIDI is a stream of messages (a.k.a. 'events'), each containing a 'command' (a.k.a. 'status'), a key number and a value. Generally speaking, that is. So you want your controller/piano to be able to send (and in the two-way case also receive) the commands and values/value ranges as you need them to be. Manuals have, or should have, tables (usually in an appendix) showing you the 'MIDI Implementation' for the respective controller/piano. If applicable, you see columns for the outbound as well as inbound MIDI messages (which by the way can differ quite a bit).

So for instance. A modern MIDI implementation uses separate commands for note-on and note-off. Older implementations (e.g. as found on the Yamaha P45) use the note-on command for note-off messages as well, with a velocity value of 0 (zero) indicating the note-off. While this usually still works today, in such a configuration you could never send a note-off velocity to your VST. With the separate note-off command, all velocities can be sent (only if actually implemented!), such as e.g. the Roland FP series do (and many others nowadays, as I assume/would hope).

Concerning pedals, does the controller/piano send on/off only? Or a mid-position value as well? Or a proper continuously variable 0--127 range? Which pedals are implemented (sustain a.k.a. damper/sostenuto/una corda a.k.a. soft/and possibly others)?

Concerning aftertouch (although seldomly found in digital pianos, if at all), is it 'per key' or is it on/off for the whole keyboard at once?

So with this I hope to convey that there are many details (the ones I mention here are just a few, albeit important ones) to carefully consider when it comes to each specific controller/piano's MIDI behavior. It really demands and deserves careful study and consideration.

One last caveat: The implementation tables can't and/or don't tell the whole story. Again with the P45 as an example: the table may tell you the velocities are in the range 1--127. Unfortunately that doesn't mean that the piano actually sends out neat gradual velocity messages using all of the fine grain this range would/should offer. Instead, the range may be limited in reality, often not exploiting the upper part of the range and sometimes coarsely 'stepping' through a limited number of velocity values that are actually used.

The latter can only be learned through testing and/or, as I did, from... drumroll... fellow Piano Worlders.

Cheers and happy studying,

HZ


As always, great post! Thanks for this, now I could probably have a another reason to justify purchasing an FP-30


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Hello,

@MarieJ quite sensibly advised to check MIDI implementations and I seconded that for, from my own experiences, I know how important that is.

Then, wanting to answer @Archipelago's follow up question about this, I gave quite a bit of my time this evening to write a useful answer. The information in that comment is based on real-world findings; for one thing I'm glad that I did that MIDI homework last year, otherwise I may well have ended up with an instrument that had disappointed me.

I certainly do not second the way @anotherscott waves most of this away as unimportant.

A year ago I knew not very much about MIDI, but as said I did the homework and am glad I did, for now I have a piano setup that acts exactly as I want it to, and I have a proper understanding of how it all works and I can rest assured I know what I am doing and how to fix issues should there be any.

This will do for this conversation as far as I am concerned.

Cheers,

HZ

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Originally Posted by HZPiano
Originally Posted by MarieJ
I have an ES110 [...] It’s brilliant, but I discovered its limitations as a controller when I first started delving into MIDI settings with Pianoteq Standard. [...] the ES110 is primarily a piano, not a controller.

Out of sincere curiosity, within the piano context, what specific limitations did you discover with the ES110? Other than it having dual instead of triple sensors, I can't think of any from the top of my head.

On the 'piano' side of things, the ES110 has always done everything I wanted it to do. I chose it on the basis of its touch alone, as it is dedicated to use with Pianoteq - the number of sensors was never a consideration.

It was only when I started experimenting with Pianoteq Standard (I wanted to use a 'celeste' pedal as well as the sustain pedal for a specific recording), that I ran into limitations. For anyone interested in the details, there's the thread 'Attempt at creating a felt piano' on Pianoteq's User Forum.


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Sorry, HZ, didn't mean to be waving it away as unimportant, more knowledge is always good. I just thought the prospect of having to have that much knowledge of MIDI before buying one's first board could be a little overwhelming/intimidating, and while helpful, not totally required, at least for piano use. If it were, probably most of the people here would never have purchased their first board. ;-) Since we're not talking about terribly expensive boards here to begin with, my personal inclination would be to find something you like the feel of, jump in, and have fun. Whatever you buy, you're not tied to it for life. Real world experience may be the best teacher of what a particular individual ends up needing anyway. But whichever philosophy Archipelago relates to, between the two of us, I think we've given him plenty of guidance for whichever approach he wants to take!

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Originally Posted by HZPiano
Hello,

@MarieJ quite sensibly advised to check MIDI implementations and I seconded that for, from my own experiences, I know how important that is.

Then, wanting to answer @Archipelago's follow up question about this, I gave quite a bit of my time this evening to write a useful answer. The information in that comment is based on real-world findings; for one thing I'm glad that I did that MIDI homework last year, otherwise I may well have ended up with an instrument that had disappointed me.

I certainly do not second the way @anotherscott waves most of this away as unimportant.

A year ago I knew not very much about MIDI, but as said I did the homework and am glad I did, for now I have a piano setup that acts exactly as I want it to, and I have a proper understanding of how it all works and I can rest assured I know what I am doing and how to fix issues should there be any.

This will do for this conversation as far as I am concerned.

Cheers,

HZ

You comment is much appreciated and not lost at all.

As a newbie in this field I have to consider all arguments and see how much of them I can implement at this stage.

Thanks for taking the time to formulate it in your very interesting post.

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Some people love the operating system way more than the operation.
If you want to play, then just play.

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Originally Posted by OU812
Some people love the operating system way more than the operation.
If you want to play, then just play.

I'm currently on an M-Audio Oxygen 49 - that's as basic as you can get and I still love it.

I just don't want to buy one digital piano and in a year find out I have outgrown it.

I have found a Komplete Kontrol S88 asking price 550$ - I'll see if I can get it down a bit as it's 4-5 years old. But first I want to test a Kawai ES110.

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Hello,

Originally Posted by MarieJ
On the 'piano' side of things, the ES110 has always done everything I wanted it to do. I chose it on the basis of its touch alone, as it is dedicated to use with Pianoteq - the number of sensors was never a consideration.

It was only when I started experimenting with Pianoteq Standard (I wanted to use a 'celeste' pedal as well as the sustain pedal for a specific recording), that I ran into limitations. For anyone interested in the details, there's the thread 'Attempt at creating a felt piano' on Pianoteq's User Forum.

I see! So if I get you right, your problem wasn't in the MIDI implementation itself, but in the lack of a second pedal connection on the ES110?

If you still want to use an extra pedal with your VSTi, I'd suggest to take a look at https://www.audiofront.net/MIDIExpression.php. Best would be to contact Robert Jonkman (owner) with the exact make and model of pedal that you'd want to connect, so he can verify that it'll work. Robert isn't a man of many words but he is definitely helpful.

Cheers and happy pedaling,

HZ

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Hello,

Originally Posted by anotherscott
But whichever philosophy Archipelago relates to, between the two of us, I think we've given him plenty of guidance for whichever approach he wants to take!

Put this way, you make more sense to me, @anotherscott 😉.

Summarizing: In theory, MIDI is a standard, and yes everything should always just work. However, in real life the differences are definitely there. Hadn't I become aware of that in time, last year I might have made the wrong purchase and I sure would have had sore regrets 🤕.

Just hope everyone is aware of these real-world caveats.

Cheers and happy MIDI messaging,

HZ

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Hello,

Originally Posted by josh_sounds
As always, great post! Thanks for this, now I could probably have a another reason to justify purchasing an FP-30

You're welcome.

Originally Posted by Archipelago
You comment is much appreciated

You're welcome.

Now go out (while staying safe pandemic-wise) and get 'em, guys.

Cheers and happy shopping,

HZ

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Originally Posted by MarieJ
...I started experimenting with Pianoteq Standard (I wanted to use a 'celeste' pedal as well as the sustain pedal for a specific recording)

On a real upright you press the celeste pedal down and slide it to the side to lock it. You don't touch the celeste pedal while holding any keys down.

On Pianoteq you click the celeste pedal on the screen with the mouse and that's it. Then use the sustain pedal as normal.

Alternatively you can right-click a pedal in Pianoteq and choose some other function for it and e.g. the middle pedal could then trigger the celeste effect, but you'd need to keep it down with your left foot.

On a grand piano...you don't have the celeste functionality.

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Hello,

Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Originally Posted by MarieJ
...I started experimenting with Pianoteq Standard (I wanted to use a 'celeste' pedal as well as the sustain pedal for a specific recording)

On a real upright you press the celeste pedal down and slide it to the side to lock it. You don't touch the celeste pedal while holding any keys down.

On Pianoteq you click the celeste pedal on the screen with the mouse and that's it. Then use the sustain pedal as normal.

Alternatively you can right-click a pedal in Pianoteq and choose some other function for it and e.g. the middle pedal could then trigger the celeste effect, but you'd need to keep it down with your left foot.

On a grand piano...you don't have the celeste functionality.

How nice!

Cheers,

HZ

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Originally Posted by Archipelago
Originally Posted by OU812
Some people love the operating system way more than the operation.
If you want to play, then just play.

I'm currently on an M-Audio Oxygen 49 - that's as basic as you can get and I still love it.

I just don't want to buy one digital piano and in a year find out I have outgrown it.

I have found a Komplete Kontrol S88 asking price 550$ - I'll see if I can get it down a bit as it's 4-5 years old. But first I want to test a Kawai ES110.

smile I am so much this guy! I fiddle more with softwares(DAWs, Sforzando...) and continually hunt for the best free soundfonts/VSTi's to play with on my Roland A49. And with a large grin on my face when I get a good one.


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Originally Posted by josh_sounds
smile I am so much this guy! I fiddle more with softwares(DAWs, Sforzando...) and continually hunt for the best free soundfonts/VSTi's to play with on my Roland A49. And with a large grin on my face when I get a good one.

Have you checked this? https://sites.google.com/site/soundfonts4u/


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Originally Posted by MarieJ
It was only when I started experimenting with Pianoteq Standard (I wanted to use a 'celeste' pedal as well as the sustain pedal for a specific recording), that I ran into limitations. For anyone interested in the details, there's the thread 'Attempt at creating a felt piano' on Pianoteq's User Forum.

How many repetitions can you get with pianoteq + es110.

2 handed, single note.

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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Originally Posted by MarieJ
...I started experimenting with Pianoteq Standard (I wanted to use a 'celeste' pedal as well as the sustain pedal for a specific recording)


On Pianoteq you click the celeste pedal on the screen with the mouse and that's it. Then use the sustain pedal as normal.

Alternatively you can right-click a pedal in Pianoteq and choose some other function for it and e.g. the middle pedal could then trigger the celeste effect, but you'd need to keep it down with your left foot.

If you scroll down to read the relevant posts in that ‘Attempt at creating a felt piano’ Pianoteq User Forum thread, you’d see the problem I encountered. I had no trouble activating the celeste effect via the mouse, and it sounded fine while playing. But the effect disappeared when playing back the recording; it only registered on a recording when triggered by a physical pedal.

I had only one pedal at the time, and I needed that as a sustain pedal. Until I invested in the 3-pedal board configuration, the ES110 lacked the physical controls to do what I wanted.

This is why I recommended checking the manual for each DP on the short list to see whether it meets any MIDI requirements before making a decision. If the OP envisages ever needing the features of a more dedicated controller - pitch wheel, modulation wheel, switches or extra pedals etc - the ES110 would not be the best long-term choice.


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Originally Posted by MarieJ
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Originally Posted by MarieJ
...I started experimenting with Pianoteq Standard (I wanted to use a 'celeste' pedal as well as the sustain pedal for a specific recording)


On Pianoteq you click the celeste pedal on the screen with the mouse and that's it. Then use the sustain pedal as normal.

Alternatively you can right-click a pedal in Pianoteq and choose some other function for it and e.g. the middle pedal could then trigger the celeste effect, but you'd need to keep it down with your left foot.

If you scroll down to read the relevant posts in that ‘Attempt at creating a felt piano’ Pianoteq User Forum thread, you’d see the problem I encountered. I had no trouble activating the celeste effect via the mouse, and it sounded fine while playing. But the effect disappeared when playing back the recording; it only registered on a recording when triggered by a physical pedal.

I had only one pedal at the time, and I needed that as a sustain pedal. Until I invested in the 3-pedal board configuration, the ES110 lacked the physical controls to do what I wanted.

This is why I recommended checking the manual for each DP on the short list to see whether it meets any MIDI requirements before making a decision. If the OP envisages ever needing the features of a more dedicated controller - pitch wheel, modulation wheel, switches or extra pedals etc - the ES110 would not be the best long-term choice.

When you say 'recording' I assume this record would be in an audio format like wav or mp3. With that I suggest VoiceMeter Banana. Set your default output to the program and hit record on the tape deck you see there, then start playing. My theory if you can hear it, VoiceMeter can record it.

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Last edited by josh_sounds; 05/04/21 08:27 AM.

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Originally Posted by josh_sounds
When you say 'recording' I assume this record would be in an audio format like wav or mp3. With that I suggest VoiceMeter Banana. Set your default output to the program and hit record on the tape deck you see there, then start playing. My theory if you can hear it, VoiceMeter can record it.

Voicemeter Banana Features
Official Download

Thanks Josh, for your suggestion, but I like to keep things as simple as possible and just looking at the web page for that ‘virtual mixer’ Windows software (I have a Mac) made my head spin. Pianoteq experts have investigated and solved the problem for me, so now it’s back to actually playing. With pedals to spare. smile


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Oh, glad to hear that! Pianoteq problems resolved. smile
Hope you could post a sample of your music...


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Played on Roland FP30x yesterday. It caps out at around ~100 as max MIDI velocity it sends (in the 0-127 range).
As a midi controller FP10 might be an overall passable/okay-ish temporary budget option.

Of course the built-in sounds in FP30x are just embarrassing... and I expected as much, nevertheless it always catches me off guard just how truly awful those built-in DP sounds are, despite the "current year"... Uhh

I'd really like to try P45 (as a MIDI controller option)

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Originally Posted by zenof
Played on Roland FP30x yesterday. It caps out at around ~100 as max MIDI velocity it sends (in the 0-127 range).
As a midi controller FP10 might be an overall passable/okay-ish temporary budget option.

Of course the built-in sounds in FP30x are just embarrassing... and I expected as much, nevertheless it always catches me off guard just how truly awful those built-in DP sounds are, despite the "current year"... Uhh

I'd really like to try P45 (as a MIDI controller option)


Does the FP30X have a "touch sensitivity" control? That's typically what is used on DPs to "unlock" the higher MIDI ranges (it's very common for DPs to max out at about 100-110).

I think the P45 does that as well...also, both being rather basic budget DPs, the manufacturers include some odd limitations/behaviors such as limit the number of half-pedal positions supported, if things like that matter to you from a controller perspective.


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What about the M-Audio Hammer 88.

Many studios now use it. I'm going to try one out this week.

Roland and Casio is out and so is the Korg B2. Not for me.

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Hello,

From my experience with the Roland FP-10, I'd have a hard time believing that the FP-30X maxes out its velocity value range below 127.

I always use the default (middle/linear) touch sensitivity setting on the FP-10 and can produce all note-on velocity values 1--127. Of course you have to rather pound the keys to reach the highest range, but I'd figure this neatly corresponds to acoustic instrument behavior. So I'm totally happy with the way it is.

So @zenof, unless Roland made a weird, to me implausible software change in the FP-30X, its MIDI behavior should be quite good. Could it be that the touch setting on the unit you played was set at 'heavy' without you knowing that?

Now the P45 by Yamaha really is limited in its MIDI range and capabilities. Also, the Casio CDP-S100 that I tested last year suffers (somewhat but less pronounced) from a more limited behavior as @Gombessa suspects some cheaper digital pianos do.

Cheers and happy decision making,

HZ

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Originally Posted by HZPiano
Hello,
So @zenof, unless Roland made a weird, to me implausible software change in the FP-30X, its MIDI behavior should be quite good. Could it be that the touch setting on the unit you played was set at 'heavy' without you knowing that?

Hmm, actually that's how I noticed that it caps out at around 100.

I was testing it and looking at the MIDI values it sends and I had a hard time getting anywhere near f/ffs, so I put
the touch on light and in that setting it would be fairly obvious that ~100 or whereabouts is the upper range it never goes past.

I didn't use "break plastic" kind of force since it wasn't my instrument, but I did mash it fast and HARD.

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Hello,

@zenof, Hmmm... it still seems odd to me. Should your findings be consistent across all units, that'd be a serious deal-breaker for the FP-30X.

Maybe others with new FP-30Xs can help verify this.

Again my experience with the FP-10s MIDI behavior is more than satisfactory, using the same PHA-4 Standard action as the FP-30X.

Cheers and for hopes of better outcomes,

HZ

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Originally Posted by zenof
Originally Posted by HZPiano
Hello,
So @zenof, unless Roland made a weird, to me implausible software change in the FP-30X, its MIDI behavior should be quite good. Could it be that the touch setting on the unit you played was set at 'heavy' without you knowing that?

Hmm, actually that's how I noticed that it caps out at around 100.

I was testing it and looking at the MIDI values it sends and I had a hard time getting anywhere near f/ffs, so I put
the touch on light and in that setting it would be fairly obvious that ~100 or whereabouts is the upper range it never goes past.

I didn't use "break plastic" kind of force since it wasn't my instrument, but I did mash it fast and HARD.


Honestly, your finding seems strange to me, I have a roland fp30 x and for midi it reaches all the values ​​it is excellent, I think it must be some error with your unit, brother

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Originally Posted by davick
I think it must be some error with your unit, brother
Or maybe the way the MIDI traffic is being observed? I would put a low level MIDI logger on it and then check the file for raw data values. Don't allow something higher level to "process" the data in anyway. Just look at the raw bytes on the MIDI bus.

Tools like Pocket-MIDI and MIDI-Ox (Windows/PC) have the ability to monitor the totally raw data.

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Originally Posted by 1903wrightflyer
Originally Posted by davick
I think it must be some error with your unit, brother
Or maybe the way the MIDI traffic is being observed? I would put a low level MIDI logger on it and then check the file for raw data values. Don't allow something higher level to "process" the data in anyway. Just look at the raw bytes on the MIDI bus.

Tools like Pocket-MIDI and MIDI-Ox (Windows/PC) have the ability to monitor the totally raw data.
I'll double check-it once I get a chance to play with it again.

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Originally Posted by zenof
Originally Posted by 1903wrightflyer
Originally Posted by davick
I think it must be some error with your unit, brother
Or maybe the way the MIDI traffic is being observed? I would put a low level MIDI logger on it and then check the file for raw data values. Don't allow something higher level to "process" the data in anyway. Just look at the raw bytes on the MIDI bus.

Tools like Pocket-MIDI and MIDI-Ox (Windows/PC) have the ability to monitor the totally raw data.
I'll double check-it once I get a chance to play with it again.

Have you discovered the root cause of your issue?


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