2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
59 members (Curt-S, Azunyan, accordeur, apianostudent, danno858, CharlesXX, 14 invisible), 1,418 guests, and 682 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 23 of 24 1 2 21 22 23 24
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,020
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,020
Awesome tirta, I'm glad it turned out well. I don't think a lot of people use this voicing method, and I sense there is still quite a bit of skepticism about it so I'm always glad when it works out for another person!


Daily driver: Yamaha Avantgrand N1
First crush: Kawai GL10, MP11SE
Current fling: Petrof III
Foster child: 1927 Kurtzmann upright
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,119
P
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,119
I use it regularly. šŸ˜

Peter Grey Piano Doctor


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,020
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,020
Do a technical at your PTG meeting Peter. It would be great to get the word out so more techs use it and the process can be honed and improved.


Daily driver: Yamaha Avantgrand N1
First crush: Kawai GL10, MP11SE
Current fling: Petrof III
Foster child: 1927 Kurtzmann upright
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,273
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,273
Instead of spraying, I've used a very narrow plastic bulb syringe to apply 3:1 between the strings on a grand for quick and minor adjustments in tone to specific or sections of hammers. I try to do a little voicing at each tuning...

Ron Koval

Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 1,242
1000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 1,242
I would like to add that the underlining purpose of spraying is evenness. The 2:1 also imparts a sweetness in the tone, much like the lanolin does when its not overly removed in the felt making process. I will use pipettes when working on sets that have much different tonal problems, but i still finish off with spraying.
-chris


Chernobieff Piano Restorations
"Where Tone is Key"
Lenoir City, Tennessee U.S.A
www.chernobieffpiano.com
Youtube https://tinyurl.com/5aw83b73


Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,610
1000 Post Club Member
Online Content
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,610
Hello Mr. Chernobieff,

Is there a document where all of this procedure is explained? I use chemicals for voicing and like the results most of the time, but I don't have that much experience with it. This thread is now 45 pages long. Would it be possible to maybe start a new thread with a full explanation of the products, the ratios, where and how to apply etc...

I know I am asking a lot! I have at one point saved a few excerpts and tried to make them into a document, but I seem to have lost it! Now I find myself having to reread the whole thread.

Thanks very much!


Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 473
D
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 473
Originally Posted by accordeur
Hello Mr. Chernobieff,

I know I am asking a lot!

I'd appreciate that too, and given the "I know we are asking a lot", let me propose something to make it more appealing to the authors: making it a PDF (or other format of their choice) "booklet" which we then buy. Since the technique is somewhat new and potentially evolving, I would not make it a physical book which may get outdated too quickly, but that is my perception: if it's instead stable enough, a book (even self-published with lulu.com) would be good.
Yet another option, the booklet (or website, or documentation about it) could be available for free if the authors so choose, but we can still donate a price to lubricate the efforts it'll take to produce it.

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,610
1000 Post Club Member
Online Content
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,610
Originally Posted by Del Vento
Originally Posted by accordeur
Hello Mr. Chernobieff,

I know I am asking a lot!

I'd appreciate that too, and given the "I know we are asking a lot", let me propose something to make it more appealing to the authors: making it a PDF (or other format of their choice) "booklet" which we then buy. Since the technique is somewhat new and potentially evolving, I would not make it a physical book which may get outdated too quickly, but that is my perception: if it's instead stable enough, a book (even self-published with lulu.com) would be good.
Yet another option, the booklet (or website, or documentation about it) could be available for free if the authors so choose, but we can still donate a price to lubricate the efforts it'll take to produce it.

An excellent idea, and I would be willing to pay! Thanks


Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,119
P
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,119
Originally Posted by Emery Wang
Do a technical at your PTG meeting Peter. It would be great to get the word out so more techs use it and the process can be honed and improved.

I shall do this. Must wait though till we meet in person again (whenever that will be). Better seen and heard in real time.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 473
D
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 473
Quote
A pdf and even a video are somewhat insufficient for learning voicing. The best way is to have an instructor because one needs to learn how to associate a particular tone quality with the part of the hammer that causes it.

Mmm, strangely some messages disappeared from this thread, so I am quoting from the email notification.

My suggestion was not to do a PDF or a video to replace (or augment) in person learning. My suggestion was to do that to replace learning from this 23-page long thread. Don't get me wrong, this thread is great, but it's somewhat confusing and evolving and having a "single" source of information would be great.

Anything in piano technology is best learnt by apprenticing and doing, but that does not mean that all the books on the subject are useless.

Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 1,242
1000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 1,242
I'll Summarize.
My Piano Hammer diagram is a very good aid for learning to hear a hammer and understanding tone.
[img]http://forum.pianoworld.com//ubbthreads.php/galleries/3114973.html#Post3114973[/img]

Listening art:
Tone really has two parts, the attack and the sustain.
My voicing procedure is to 1)listen to the sustain first. 2) listen to the FF area and 3) finish off with the pp area.
To listen to the sustain play a note and hold. To listen to the attack play repeated notes, start soft and play through its dynamic range until you hear it max loudness.

If sustain decays quickly the shoulders are too hard. The sustain goal is to build it so it blooms.
You'll find that the FF of the attack are not always (if ever) even. To fix this, i remove a hammer or put the action on its side and apply from the side of the hammer. The pp area (top of the hammer) is the easiest to work on.

To soften:
I use 2 parts alcohol to 1 part All Fabric Softener
For extra hard FF areas when the 2:1 won't work. I use a 4 parts alcohol to 1 part All, to 1 part water. Its a big gun, not used that much, Be extra careful.
To Harden:
I mix 4g of B-72 to 4oz of alcohol. (from here on call 4-4) I make a 32 oz jar at a time. Then i dilute it to different strengths
4-4, 4-8. 4-16, 4-32. Experience will tell you what strength to use when hardening.
Big sexy hairspray is quite handy for the pp area when you want the tone to have just a little bite to it.
Spraying softener or hardner is often a good way to blend sections together to create a unified whole.

Hope that helps.
-chris


Chernobieff Piano Restorations
"Where Tone is Key"
Lenoir City, Tennessee U.S.A
www.chernobieffpiano.com
Youtube https://tinyurl.com/5aw83b73


Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,020
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,020
Thanks Chris. I have some questions on the pp and ff parts. Would you let me know if I have this right?

  • If pp is too loud (hard to play softly), you add softener to the crown.
  • If ff is too strong, you add softener from the side to the ff area
  • If ff is too weak, you add hardener from the side to the ff area.


Is that what you mean?


Daily driver: Yamaha Avantgrand N1
First crush: Kawai GL10, MP11SE
Current fling: Petrof III
Foster child: 1927 Kurtzmann upright
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,610
1000 Post Club Member
Online Content
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,610
Originally Posted by Chernobieff Piano
I'll Summarize.
My Piano Hammer diagram is a very good aid for learning to hear a hammer and understanding tone.
[img]http://forum.pianoworld.com//ubbthreads.php/galleries/3114973.html#Post3114973[/img]

Listening art:
Tone really has two parts, the attack and the sustain.
My voicing procedure is to 1)listen to the sustain first. 2) listen to the FF area and 3) finish off with the pp area.
To listen to the sustain play a note and hold. To listen to the attack play repeated notes, start soft and play through its dynamic range until you hear it max loudness.

If sustain decays quickly the shoulders are too hard. The sustain goal is to build it so it blooms.
You'll find that the FF of the attack are not always (if ever) even. To fix this, i remove a hammer or put the action on its side and apply from the side of the hammer. The pp area (top of the hammer) is the easiest to work on.

To soften:
I use 2 parts alcohol to 1 part All Fabric Softener
For extra hard FF areas when the 2:1 won't work. I use a 4 parts alcohol to 1 part All, to 1 part water. Its a big gun, not used that much, Be extra careful.
To Harden:
I mix 4g of B-72 to 4oz of alcohol. (from here on call 4-4) I make a 32 oz jar at a time. Then i dilute it to different strengths
4-4, 4-8. 4-16, 4-32. Experience will tell you what strength to use when hardening.
Big sexy hairspray is quite handy for the pp area when you want the tone to have just a little bite to it.
Spraying softener or hardner is often a good way to blend sections together to create a unified whole.

Hope that helps.
-chris

Thanks very much


Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,119
P
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,119
šŸ‘šŸ‘

Peter Grey Piano Doctor


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 473
D
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 473
Originally Posted by Chernobieff Piano
I'll Summarize.
My Piano Hammer diagram is a very good aid for learning to hear a hammer and understanding tone.
[img]http://forum.pianoworld.com//ubbthreads.php/galleries/3114973.html#Post3114973[/img]

Listening art:
Tone really has two parts, the attack and the sustain.
My voicing procedure is to 1)listen to the sustain first. 2) listen to the FF area and 3) finish off with the pp area.
To listen to the sustain play a note and hold. To listen to the attack play repeated notes, start soft and play through its dynamic range until you hear it max loudness.

If sustain decays quickly the shoulders are too hard. The sustain goal is to build it so it blooms.
You'll find that the FF of the attack are not always (if ever) even. To fix this, i remove a hammer or put the action on its side and apply from the side of the hammer. The pp area (top of the hammer) is the easiest to work on.

To soften:
I use 2 parts alcohol to 1 part All Fabric Softener
For extra hard FF areas when the 2:1 won't work. I use a 4 parts alcohol to 1 part All, to 1 part water. Its a big gun, not used that much, Be extra careful.
To Harden:
I mix 4g of B-72 to 4oz of alcohol. (from here on call 4-4) I make a 32 oz jar at a time. Then i dilute it to different strengths
4-4, 4-8. 4-16, 4-32. Experience will tell you what strength to use when hardening.
Big sexy hairspray is quite handy for the pp area when you want the tone to have just a little bite to it.
Spraying softener or hardner is often a good way to blend sections together to create a unified whole.

Hope that helps.
-chris

That's a nice summary, thanks a lot.

Do you find that when using the fabric softener these traditional techniques which one would use with needling are unnecessary? Or do I still need to plan for them?

  • resetting the felt to make sure the change is stable and not temporary?
  • reflowing the hardener if someone (or your former self) added too much to the top layers and not enough to the inside?
  • rinsing the hardener if someone (or your former self) added too much to the whole hammer?


Thanks

Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 1,242
1000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 1,242
Originally Posted by Emery Wang
Thanks Chris. I have some questions on the pp and ff parts. Would you let me know if I have this right?

  • If pp is too loud (hard to play softly), you add softener to the crown.
  • If ff is too strong, you add softener from the side to the ff area
  • If ff is too weak, you add hardener from the side to the ff area.


Is that what you mean?

Emery,
If pp is too loud, in my mind that means the FF is too large or hard and giving too much energy to the strings, therefore soften the FF area. The pp area can either be breathy, clear, or harsh. If breathy then apply hardener, if harsh, then apply softener. Clear tone on the attack is the goal. pp provides the color of the tone.

-chris


Chernobieff Piano Restorations
"Where Tone is Key"
Lenoir City, Tennessee U.S.A
www.chernobieffpiano.com
Youtube https://tinyurl.com/5aw83b73


Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 1,242
1000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 1,242
Here's an update:
My client sent a sound sample this time(Chopin Prelude em).
Todd did all the action work and voicing. He used the All fabric softener and Hairspray method on Ronsen Wurtzen felt hammers.

The piano had soundboard issues so he called me to help. When i first played on the piano it had ZERO sustain. This was because of the previous rebuilder. It had so much excess of downbearing that it flattened the board out and choked it. When i removed the strings it crowned back up. I installed new hickory bridge caps and the accu adjust system, then set a new downbearing plan the board could handle. The bass strings are Heller bass with Paulello cores.
If you listen to the recording Joanne lets the last note sing a long time showing off the sustain it now has.
A very transformative project.


-chris

Last edited by Chernobieff Piano; 05/15/21 12:12 PM.

Chernobieff Piano Restorations
"Where Tone is Key"
Lenoir City, Tennessee U.S.A
www.chernobieffpiano.com
Youtube https://tinyurl.com/5aw83b73


Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,610
1000 Post Club Member
Online Content
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,610
Sounds good!


Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 1,242
1000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 1,242
I just made an edited version of the Todd Scott video Masterclass, shortened it down to less than 30 minutes. Made it easier to follow the concepts.
I also had completely forgotten about him using the 1-1-1 on the string grooves. That's the neat thing about making a video.



During the class, Todd did a performance on the finished piano (A Baldwin R) I posted it separately. Enjoy.



-chris


Chernobieff Piano Restorations
"Where Tone is Key"
Lenoir City, Tennessee U.S.A
www.chernobieffpiano.com
Youtube https://tinyurl.com/5aw83b73


Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 1,242
1000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 1,242
Hey All,
I made a new video. I am starting the voicing process on an upright piano. Just finished with the key pounder. In this video I show the use of masking tape to help target certain areas when spraying either All Fabric Softener, or Hairspray.
Hope you Enjoy it.
I'll most likely make another video when its finished and all tuned up.
-chris



Chernobieff Piano Restorations
"Where Tone is Key"
Lenoir City, Tennessee U.S.A
www.chernobieffpiano.com
Youtube https://tinyurl.com/5aw83b73


Page 23 of 24 1 2 21 22 23 24

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Vibration in new piano
by Fantine56 - 07/30/21 03:20 PM
Hardman Peck console question
by eebird - 07/30/21 02:25 PM
Auction of rare piano collection
by Sweelinck - 07/30/21 01:04 PM
Please Help Me Find This Sheet
by Shinobi - 07/30/21 12:14 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics208,294
Posts3,117,732
Members102,285
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5