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Originally Posted by OE1FEU
My household is completely free from any Apple product so far - and I have no intention whatsoever to change this.

What exactly are your concerns with the Apple platform?

Originally Posted by OE1FEU
a) what are the minimum requirements in terms of hardware (iPhone version/iOS version)?

pianoscope requires iOS or iPadOS 14.2 or later. Here you can find the list of supported iPhones and iPads:

https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/iphe3fa5df43/ios
https://support.apple.com/guide/ipad/ipad213a25b2/ipados

Originally Posted by OE1FEU
b) is it possible at all to use an iPhone without becoming part of the Apple eco system in terms of requiring an account to load software or getting OS updates.

To load software onto an iPhone or iPad, you need an account, a so-called Apple ID. But you do not need to connect it to any personal data like a credit card. To purchase software, you need a payment method. If you do not want to provide credit card details, you can buy iTunes gift cards and redeem them under your Apple ID.

Originally Posted by OE1FEU
Otherwise I'll just wait and see whether there will be an Android version at one point.

I don't have plans to port pianoscope to any other platform. But there are fine alternatives which run under Android or Windows, like PianoMeter, TuneLab or Verituner.

Last edited by Frank Illenberger; 04/27/21 07:06 AM.

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Originally Posted by Frank Illenberger
Originally Posted by OE1FEU
My household is completely free from any Apple product so far - and I have no intention whatsoever to change this.

What exactly are your concerns with the Apple platform?

[...]

I don't have plans to port pianoscope to any other platform. But there are fine alternatives which run under Android or Windows, like PianoMeter, TuneLab or Verituner.

I try to avoid a vendor lock-in whenever possible and I will thus continue to use the products you mentioned.

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I have just released build 582 of pianoscope. It now finally supports unequal temperaments. In the instrument settings you can select one of about 70 common temperaments from older and more recent history or create your own. I have also updated the manual to cover all new functions concerning temperaments.

I am curious to see how the new features work for you.


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Thanks for adding the unequal temperament feature Frank! For custom temperaments, I can't figure out how to add a negative offset of -0.xx cents. You probably need to add a -0 option to the picker on the left and distinguish it from +0.

I would also like to see Bill Bremmer's EBVT III (https://www.billbremmer.com/ebvt/) as a preset option. It is a mild well temperament attributed to Neidhardt (1724) but most commonly associated with Bremmer, who independently developed the temperament and its tuning sequence.

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Originally Posted by pianofish
Thanks for adding the unequal temperament feature Frank! For custom temperaments, I can't figure out how to add a negative offset of -0.xx cents. You probably need to add a -0 option to the picker on the left and distinguish it from +0.

Oh yes, you're right. This is a bug. I will fix it soon.

Originally Posted by pianofish
I would also like to see Bill Bremmer's EBVT III (https://www.billbremmer.com/ebvt/) as a preset option. It is a mild well temperament attributed to Neidhardt (1724) but most commonly associated with Bremmer, who independently developed the temperament and its tuning sequence.

Thanks for the hint. I will add it.


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Frank, thanks for updating the app! It seems to me that the information in the Header can be distributed both to the left and to the right. And the choice is left to the user where he wants to see it. For example, I would like to see Concert Pitch on the left, and Style and Temperament on the right, but for someone it is convenient as it is now

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Originally Posted by Alex Hutor
Frank, thanks for updating the app! It seems to me that the information in the Header can be distributed both to the left and to the right. And the choice is left to the user where he wants to see it. For example, I would like to see Concert Pitch on the left, and Style and Temperament on the right, but for someone it is convenient as it is now

In build 587 I've picked up on Alex's idea and made the header labels assignable to a side. It is now also possible to enter custom temperament offsets between -1 and 0 cents. And I added the EBVT III temperament as requested by pianofish. Have fun!

Last edited by Frank Illenberger; 05/02/21 11:12 AM.

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Finally got back to trying with the new temperament options, as well as pitch adjustment.
I do like the "quick-start" for pitch raising - especially for larger ones where I just want to get to the first pass as quickly as possible.

Since I float pitch, I will have to watch out when using a saved file - the pitch offset stays with the file, so next time it won't revert to A=440 and I could possibly tune to a pitch I didn't want for that time of year...

For those experimenting, if you want to hear a piano tuned as I normally do, use the "octaves pure" selection under styles in the tuning curve and the Koval variable 1.3 found in the instrument settings under temperaments. This left the two pianos today (Samick grand and Yamaha U1) pretty much where my custom Verituner setting calculated. I haven't tried to compare a spinet or console yet.

You can use the mild temperament with confidence, it is pretty much a "stealth" temperament with the largest offset from ET being only 1.3 cents.

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Pitch raise
I was very pleased with the first pass of a 20 cent pitch raise. Most notes finished within 1-3 cents of pitch. It made me wonder whether it would be possible to collect data from pitch raises and refine the overpull calculations to get the piano even closer to pitch after a single pass. The formula can take into account the piano’s model and year, as well as environmental conditions. These factors should have predictive value if the manufacturer is reasonably consistent. Though it takes time to measure the before/after pitch, you could make it a requirement for users who wish to opt into this improved “cloud tuning.”

Some graphics explaining "highest bass bridge note" etc. could be helpful for non-pros going through the pitch raise process for the first time. I figured it out without looking at the documentation, but a picture would have made me more confident of my selections.

Suggestion to add a Pareto-efficient tuning mode
It could also be worthwhile to have a special mode that tunes the piano to itself (instead of A440) while changing the fewest number of notes or strings. Now that my piano is in tune, I find myself looking at the tuning curve and fixing the worst offenders. This process is slower than I would like. It would be nice to measure all 88 keys and tune them one at a time with pianoscope determining the optimal order.

Stopping prematurely should result in the best-sounding piano given the number of strings tuned. I think this would be useful for obsessive pianists who tune frequently, and possibly for professionals during the fine tuning stage, or for doing a quick touch-up tuning.

Tuning Curve
One thing that I like about PianoMeter is the tuning curve display being integrated with the pitch needle / phase display. It provides situational awareness of the piano’s state as it is being tuned. In pianoscope, I don’t like how it takes 2 taps to reach the Tuning Curve screen, especially if I view it after tuning each note. 1 tap would be ideal.

(Note to Anthony if you are reading this, I wish PianoMeter would have the option to full-screen or zoom the Tuning Curve. Once the piano is close to in tune, the narrow range in the y-axis makes it hard to identify the notes with the biggest errors.)

Pop-up menu inadvertently closing on iPad
On an iPad, it’s annoying how tapping outside the boundaries of a pop-up menu causes it to close. It should have no effect. Tapping "Done" should be the only way to close out of a pop-up menu when it is invoked by a user selection.

This problem does not manifest on iPhone because pop-up menus take up the whole screen.

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Originally Posted by RonTuner
Finally got back to trying with the new temperament options, as well as pitch adjustment.
I do like the "quick-start" for pitch raising - especially for larger ones where I just want to get to the first pass as quickly as possible.

Great!

Originally Posted by RonTuner
Since I float pitch, I will have to watch out when using a saved file - the pitch offset stays with the file, so next time it won't revert to A=440 and I could possibly tune to a pitch I didn't want for that time of year...

As a safeguard, you can configure the tune view header to always show the chosen concert pitch.

Originally Posted by RonTuner
For those experimenting, if you want to hear a piano tuned as I normally do, use the "octaves pure" selection under styles in the tuning curve and the Koval variable 1.3 found in the instrument settings under temperaments. This left the two pianos today (Samick grand and Yamaha U1) pretty much where my custom Verituner setting calculated.

I am glad the new features are working for you.


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Originally Posted by pianofish
Pitch raise
I was very pleased with the first pass of a 20 cent pitch raise. Most notes finished within 1-3 cents of pitch. It made me wonder whether it would be possible to collect data from pitch raises and refine the overpull calculations to get the piano even closer to pitch after a single pass. The formula can take into account the piano’s model and year, as well as environmental conditions. These factors should have predictive value if the manufacturer is reasonably consistent. Though it takes time to measure the before/after pitch, you could make it a requirement for users who wish to opt into this improved “cloud tuning.”

Currently, pianoscope is not collecting any data or sending anything back home. But crowd-sourcing overpull data is an interesting idea.

Originally Posted by pianofish
Some graphics explaining "highest bass bridge note" etc. could be helpful for non-pros going through the pitch raise process for the first time. I figured it out without looking at the documentation, but a picture would have made me more confident of my selections.

Thanks for the feedback. I will consider adding some drawings to the pitch-raise setup.

Originally Posted by pianofish
Suggestion to add a Pareto-efficient tuning mode
It could also be worthwhile to have a special mode that tunes the piano to itself (instead of A440) while changing the fewest number of notes or strings. Now that my piano is in tune, I find myself looking at the tuning curve and fixing the worst offenders. This process is slower than I would like. It would be nice to measure all 88 keys and tune them one at a time with pianoscope determining the optimal order.
Stopping prematurely should result in the best-sounding piano given the number of strings tuned. I think this would be useful for obsessive pianists who tune frequently, and possibly for professionals during the fine tuning stage, or for doing a quick touch-up tuning.

I like the idea. Should not be too hard to implement.

Originally Posted by pianofish
Tuning Curve
One thing that I like about PianoMeter is the tuning curve display being integrated with the pitch needle / phase display. It provides situational awareness of the piano’s state as it is being tuned. In pianoscope, I don’t like how it takes 2 taps to reach the Tuning Curve screen, especially if I view it after tuning each note. 1 tap would be ideal.

I understand your desire. I will think about how to improve this.

Originally Posted by pianofish
Pop-up menu inadvertently closing on iPad
On an iPad, it’s annoying how tapping outside the boundaries of a pop-up menu causes it to close. It should have no effect. Tapping "Done" should be the only way to close out of a pop-up menu when it is invoked by a user selection.
This problem does not manifest on iPhone because pop-up menus take up the whole screen.

On the iPad, pianoscope is using the behaviour Apple is recommending for page sheets: Sheets which do not contain unsaved data should be dismissable by tapping outside of them or by swiping down. The sheets in Pages, Numbers, Keynote and many other apps are behaving like this. So with pianoscope I am trying to be a good citizen and to meet people's expectations.


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The Pianoscope app deserves a high score for the best tuning results compared to other apps. The main thing is that the program really solves the problems of inharmony at a high level. The application is convenient, easy to use, designed to make life easier for the piano tuner and become his reliable companion. I have tested on various types of pianos and have always gotten a good result.
While working with the program, I noticed some drawbacks.
1. Sometimes strobes and indicator disappear until you press the adjacent key.
2. Make the default choice (Fine Tuning) or (Coarse Tuning) in the settings to remove unnecessary banners before a new measurement.
3. When contour (Sharp) is selected in the strobe setting, the strobes are too wide. It would be nice to make them a little narrower, so that you can work both in portrait and landscape mode.
4. Keyboard size is not saved when rotating iphone screen.

Last edited by D520; 05/12/21 03:45 PM.
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I am working with IPhone SE, I am having problems with Tuning Curve display. When I turn off the "Show Actual Pitches" item, the scale of the curve is reduced to ±20 cents.

[Linked Image]


And on one piano it gave me this:

[Linked Image]

In fact, these are unpleasant, but trifles. The app itself is very pleasing, both with the quality of the result and with the ease of use.

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Originally Posted by Frank Illenberger
Hi John,

to calculate their tunings, apps like Verituner or TuneLab take an approach which is similar to the procedure of aural tuning. In a first step they start from the given concert pitch and build a temperament octave, like A3-A4. From the notes in the temperament octave they go outwards and minimize the beating of a fixed tuning interval in every region, like 6:3 for A0-A3, 4:1 for A4-C8. You as a tuner have to decide, which tuning intervals are suitable for an individual instrument.

pianoscope on the other hand first builds a model of the inharmonicity and the partial strengths of all notes of an individual instrument. You have to play a sample of 12 notes, each for a second. From this it calculates a tuning by GLOBALLY optimizing a whole set of slow-beating intervals, like fourths 4:3, 8:6, fifths 3:2, 6:4, octaves 2:1, 4:2, 6:3, 8:4, 10:5 - twelfths 3:1, 6:2, 9:3, double octaves 4:1, 8:2, nineteenths and triple octaves. As pianoscope knows the strength of the partials before it constructs a tuning, it can individually adjust the weights for all intervals according to it. You only have to decide, which tuning style you or the customer prefer in principle, if you for example prefer pure twelfths over octaves, or want a compromise of both. You do not need to make decisions for an individual instrument.

(snip the rest of the quote)


Frank, I wanted to return to this from page 1. Am I correct in understanding that the tuning can possibly change across the temperament region in response to measurements on the other side? As you stated, the Verituner works from the middle outwards - going down or up refers back towards the temperament, but doesn't take into consideration inharmonicity measurements on the other side of the A3-A4 octave, as I understand.

In the Pianoscope model, can notes below A3, like in poorly designed scales, have an effect on notes above A4 as the software searches for better balancing of intervals?

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Originally Posted by Frank Illenberger
On the iPad, pianoscope is using the behaviour Apple is recommending for page sheets: Sheets which do not contain unsaved data should be dismissable by tapping outside of them or by swiping down.

Thank you for helping me understand. On the iPad, the page sheets for adding a new temperament are dismissed when tapping outside. Because some of the controls are close to the edge of the page sheet, it can be difficult to input all 12 offsets without accidentally losing the unsaved data for the new temperament.

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Originally Posted by D520
The Pianoscope app deserves a high score for the best tuning results compared to other apps. The main thing is that the program really solves the problems of inharmony at a high level. The application is convenient, easy to use, designed to make life easier for the piano tuner and become his reliable companion. I have tested on various types of pianos and have always gotten a good result.

Thank you, I am glad you are getting so good results in your tunings.

Originally Posted by D520
While working with the program, I noticed some drawbacks.
1. Sometimes strobes and indicator disappear until you press the adjacent key.
2. Make the default choice (Fine Tuning) or (Coarse Tuning) in the settings to remove unnecessary banners before a new measurement.
3. When contour (Sharp) is selected in the strobe setting, the strobes are too wide. It would be nice to make them a little narrower, so that you can work both in portrait and landscape mode.
4. Keyboard size is not saved when rotating iphone screen.

1. I have not experienced this issue lately. I will look into it. If you find a way to reproduce it, let me know.

2. In a future update, I will offer to specify defaults for new documents, like tuning style, temperament, concert pitch, coarse / fine IH measurements

3. I will make the strobe blocks narrower for tight portrait situations.

4. I think I will have persist two separate settings for the keyboard size for portrait and landscape orientation.


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Originally Posted by Alex Hutor
I am working with IPhone SE, I am having problems with Tuning Curve display. When I turn off the "Show Actual Pitches" item, the scale of the curve is reduced to ±20 cents.

And on one piano it gave me this:

In fact, these are unpleasant, but trifles. The app itself is very pleasing, both with the quality of the result and with the ease of use.

Thanks Alex, I will fix both issues very soon with an update.


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Originally Posted by RonTuner
Frank, I wanted to return to this from page 1. Am I correct in understanding that the tuning can possibly change across the temperament region in response to measurements on the other side? As you stated, the Verituner works from the middle outwards - going down or up refers back towards the temperament, but doesn't take into consideration inharmonicity measurements on the other side of the A3-A4 octave, as I understand.

In the Pianoscope model, can notes below A3, like in poorly designed scales, have an effect on notes above A4 as the software searches for better balancing of intervals?

pianoscope does not have a special temperament octave. All possible interval combinations are optimized across the full scale according to the weights of the chosen tuning style. Therefore naturally notes below A3 can affect notes above A4, especially if you have strong weights on large intervals like nineteenths or triple octaves.

Last edited by Frank Illenberger; 05/16/21 04:24 PM.

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Frank, you write that you will make stroboscopic blocks narrower in portrait mode. Just make them a little narrower in all modes, both portrait and landscape.

Last edited by D520; 05/16/21 04:47 PM.
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Originally Posted by D520
Frank, you write that you will make stroboscopic blocks narrower in portrait mode. Just make them a little narrower in all modes, both portrait and landscape.

In build 598 the strobe size is reduced significantly in portrait orientation on small iPhones, and somewhat according to the chosen contour so that visual size stays constant. Please check it out and tell me if it works for you.

Also, the keyboard can now have different persistent sizes in landscape and portrait orientation.

Last edited by Frank Illenberger; 05/16/21 05:47 PM.

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