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Hi all, on my brand new N1X i find there is not much gap/room between all keys and when I play keys there is a very slight wooden rub/friction, it's not very noticeable and wondered if this is normal for an acoustic action as I've never owned a real acoustic action before. If i depress a key but am moving the key more to the right or left the friction is very apparent and would be imo unplayable, however its not at that stage yet, hopefully the keys stay in place over time and not rub against each other anymore than they do now, which is not much like I said but it's still there. I try my cp4 digital piano and there's no friction as the keys have always stayed in place and don't rub.
Keys do not touch on any of the current acoustics I play and they don’t touch on my N1X. I checked the lateral movement of every key on my N1X just now and none of them contact the adjacent key.
If your keys literally rub against each other and it’s not just friction from the felt/pin you're feeling, then I think that requires a warranty repair or replacement. If it’s a lot of keys (1/3 of the keyboard, then I’d opt for a replacement.
How many keys are rubbing and are you sure you’re not just feeling friction from the felt/pin when you apply lateral pressure?
Hi all, on my brand new N1X i find there is not much gap/room between all keys and when I play keys there is a very slight wooden rub/friction, it's not very noticeable and wondered if this is normal for an acoustic action as I've never owned a real acoustic action before. If i depress a key but am moving the key more to the right or left the friction is very apparent and would be imo unplayable, however its not at that stage yet, hopefully the keys stay in place over time and not rub against each other anymore than they do now, which is not much like I said but it's still there. I try my cp4 digital piano and there's no friction as the keys have always stayed in place and don't rub.
Keys do not touch on any of the current acoustics I play and they don’t touch on my N1X. I checked the lateral movement of every key on my N1X just now and none of them contact the adjacent key.
If your keys literally rub against each other and it’s not just friction from the felt/pin you're feeling, then I think that requires a warranty repair or replacement. If it’s a lot of keys (1/3 of the keyboard, then I’d opt for a replacement.
How many keys are rubbing and are you sure you’re not just feeling friction from the felt/pin when you apply lateral pressure?
God Bless, David
Thanks David, maybe it's friction from felt/pin yeah... I'm maybe being paranoid I don't know.
Thanks David, maybe it's friction from felt/pin yeah... I'm maybe being paranoid I don't know.
If you have a flashlight you can shine it between the keys and see if they are actually contacting each other.
If you apply enough lateral pressure to a key as you depress it, you're going to feel an increase in friction. It's simply the mechanics of it. I don't notice it when I'm playing (N1X or acoustics), but I'm not a lifelong piano player that has a developed and sensitive touch.
I doubt the keys rub against each other either. If you grab a key and move it left or right while pressing it, naturally it will experience more friction between the front rail pin and the felt bushing. Which may feel like keys rubbing against each other but it isn’t. And I guess this will be higher in the first days/weeks. Also if you push the keys laterally with enough force, they will touch each other eventually since the pins are elastic. But this should never happen in playing, regardless of how you play. Look whether the gaps are equal between all keys. Also all keys should have a play of 0.2mm left-right without force. Grab any two adjacent keys and move them towards each other but without force, only using the “play”. Then press them down and check they still don’t rub. If they rub, then it needs alignment, otherwise all is OK.
... They are mainly acoustic piano technicians that received training in Japan from Yamaha... They told me
...the action on the N1X is relatively cheap ...it's common that this kind of action isn't perfectly regulated out of the factory. ...if I enjoyed the showroom piano, the store should have made a special price and sold me that piano in the first place lol....
They even gave me the contact of another technician around here that could do it cheaper
...especially for the kind of entry level action that the N1X has compared to higher end acoustics.
Ah, interesting, isn't it? When I took similar views here, the forum experts countered that I was the only one to spread such "absurd" views about the N1x action, but had no idea about it, because it would be a high-end product ...
Then we have to assume that these piano technicians trained at Yamaha also have no idea and only represent absurd individual opinions? ...
Your opinion wasn’t similar. It was about a defective N1X in your church which you attributed to general lack of quality with Yamaha and N1X. As such it was and still is absurd.
Unfortunately, you also seem to be a forum expert at making false statements about my similar opinions based on two different samples and accusing me of wrong views...
@CyberGene and @Kammerklang, To be honest with you, 'interactions' like these make me consider leaving this forum altogether. This significantly diminishes an otherwise great forum with great people attending it.
Would you say there really is no way to respectfully, constructively, helpfully, enjoyably discuss actual and useful topics with eachother and with all of us?
The respectful, constructive and helpful way of discussion was long ago exhausted.
I have zero tolerance towards BS and I never hesitate pointing it out when I see one. I wouldn’t change my attitude for the sake of keeping a friendly tone in the forum, when someone have the agenda to spread misinformation.
2. I'm also curious about the "relatively cheap" and "this kind of action" comments. I'm inclined to just dismiss as vague non-statements, but would be curious to know if they were talking about the type of wood, the cut/craftsmanship, finish, materials [...]
Well, I asked them to elaborate a bit on this and they explained me that they were essentially referring to QC standards. It's not that the action is "cheaply made" or the materials are bad, which obviously isn't the case and it's not something that I was ever trying to suggest. They said it's the fact that there just isn't the same level of care and attention to detail that there is in higher end Yamaha series.
For example, they told me on a CX series piano the weight of every key would have been checked against adjacent keys to ensure a perfect gradation across the whole register on every single piano coming out the factory. They also said there would never be such a big difference in static actuation weight as they found between my piano and the piano they checked in the showroom (avg 5-6g per key). And obviously there would be no chance for the friction issues I had as the action would have been thoroughly checked and rectified until it was perfect (or at least excellent) at the factory.
Like any company, Yamaha needs to make a profit and some things can't just be on the same level as a 40k-60k acoustic piano. Of course, materials might also be different as it wouldn't make economical sense from a business perspective, but they assured the materials on the N1X are def more than good enough for a wonderful playing experience (as I had in the showroom - I was going to buy an NU1X until I tried a perfectly regulated N1X which easily won me over).
The point is that all these "fixable" issues can happen more fraquently due to less strict QC standards - afterall the fallboard on my N1X came right off when it was delivered. Is the soft close mechanism good quality? Sure is and works very smoothly indeed, but the pins were misaligned at the factory and someone let that pass, so I had to fix it myself, and that's something that shouldn't happen - that's a hard fact, not a vague non-statement. I'm sorry but I'm not gonna put an "acceptable" label on that because it just isn't, even on a cheaper DP.
I am much happier with my N1X now, but because I remember how good the one in the showroom felt, I will probably end up speeding the extra money and have it perfectly regulated. The only thing that to me, as a customer, is very frustrating is having such a nice experience in the showroom and not having a similar experience out of the box at home with the same model. I am not a blind Yamaha fan even though I love most of their pianos, so I'll call them out whenever I think it's right. Actually, constructive negative customer feedback is a way for a company to improve and it's arguably more helpful for them than just nodding and saying Ok... Maybe some weight variation is acceptable and some variation in regulation too at this price point, but I'll say it very clearly that I don't think the issues I had with friction, the much heavier action and the whole fallboard thing are acceptable. The issues don't suddenly make the N1X a bad piano. I still love it, and it's more than enough for my "level". They just make the customer experience (even if for a very limited few) unnecessarily worse. All fixable, but more importantly all avoidable issues...
The N1x definitely isn't a bad digital piano. But I have repeatedly recommended to be careful with the selection of the N1x action for the reasons mentioned above and to thoroughly check the model that you want to buy beforehand.
My recommendation was and is intended as a constructive criticism to protect yourself from possible quality fluctuations, especially if players have high pianistic demands.
I guess the sad truth is that out of pride in ownership, some people can't even stand this simple advice. They feel personally attacked and see it as a criticism of their competence or their pianistic judgment when someone expresses the slightest criticism of their model and advises caution.
One then prefers to immediately talk about misinformation and BS and zero tolerance and get personal... all right. Too bad. But not my problem.
PS.: srslysupersonic thank you for the helpful and valuable contributions
srslysupersonic, very well put and I agree with you on every point. If I had the same issues as you and some other people (the fallboard issue and the keyboard friction) I would be very critical and wouldn't find those acceptable. I don't think those are very frequent though. Especially regarding the friction, it's only you who have complained so far. Maybe LJames is the other one, she complained that her piano was heavier to play than the floor model she tested, but she didn't elaborate and never posted back on the forum, so we don't know if it loosened up with playing, or if she meant there was friction, or anything else.
I try not to be a N1X fanboy but maybe I fail from time to time and go into a fanboy mode which is certainly triggered by people posting BS. If one goes through my post history throughout the years, it will become apparent that I tend to be a moaner and would always complain about anything, and in particular about every piano that I owned. Well, luckily I ended up with a perfect N1X, so maybe that's the reason for me to be slightly biased but whenever possible I try not to be biased and look at things realistically. However I get irritated when I see biased statements such as those in a thread where Kammerklang and mwf participated. N1X was dismissed as unsuitable for serious pianists in general. And Kammerklang in particular was generalizing how N1X has a low quality action, based on a single piano in his church that had keys rubbing against each other. Well, he says he found another one in a store that had the same issue. But I've never heard of anyone else having the same issue. I find his posts biased and I dare to think he has agenda to bash the N1X. I actually challenged him to make a video of keys rubbing against each other: besides the one in his church, but I'd be interested to see even the one in his church. Because by his initial description I think he was referring to the keys moving left-right as unacceptable whereas that is part of the regulation standards. I just have my own belief that he is making things up to cover up for lack of experience with pianos. I will apologize to him if that's not true. But I have my rights to conclude from his posts that he is not experienced, yet is being dismissive towards N1X in general.
... However I get irritated when I see biased statements such as those in a thread where Kammerklang and mwf participated. N1X was dismissed as unsuitable for serious pianists in general. And Kammerklang in particular was generalizing how N1X has a low quality action, based on a single piano in his church that had keys rubbing against each other...
This is what causes red flags for me too. Generalizations about something based on limited experience. It can happen with any subject, but it's particularly annoying when people use it to assert an opinion as fact.
I once had a member in church tell me "everyone" was mad at me. I said who specifically is "everyone?" Eventually, I coaxed out the truth that only that person and one other was upset. However, that person's limited experience became a generalization that was projected onto the rest of the church and then used to try and manipulate me.
I've become very sensitive to that kind of behavior. I've recognized it here as well. It should be easy for someone to say, "in my limited experience" I have encountered such and such with the N1X action, etc., but that's not the way it's presented and it makes me wonder also what the agenda is.
Sorry for the offtopic but I really can't imagine how someone can be mad at you David, you always seem to be so kind and well-mannered, immune to confrontations, always soft spoken. Unless you are a different person in real life 😀
P.S. I am myself very annoying person online and I know it. However in real life I am totally different, opposite to my online persona. There's probably a diagnosis or psychological explanation for that... 🤦🏻♂️
Sorry for the offtopic but I really can't imagine how someone can be mad at you David, you always seem to be so kind and well-mannered, immune to confrontations, always soft spoken. Unless you are a different person in real life 😀
P.S. I am myself very annoying person online and I know it. However in real life I am totally different, opposite to my online persona. There's probably a diagnosis or psychological explanation for that... 🤦🏻♂️
We all have objectionable traits of character that are both hereditary and cultivated. My brokenness as a human being has caused pain in others at times. Thankfully, in the Christian worldview, restoration of character is a fundamental blessing both to be pursued and obtained by the grace of God.
1. $800 for a full regulation including drilling out for new counterweights is definitely interesting. I don't think it should be required on a new instrument in the first place, but definitely good to know that you have that option (and I agree that from your description, sounds like they know what they're doing).
I think TomLC also had his NV-10 action regulated to lighten the touch a bit. I feel we certainly have a more hands-on crew here than most of the folks who have historically purchased hybrids such as the original GranTouch and AvantGrands.
Just to clarify. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the action on my piano. I thought a lighter action would alleviate the minor pain and stiffness I was experiencing. The cost was much less than $800 for a Kawai approved RPT to change the geometry of the action. (Not the counter weights.) And also clean, lubricate, test, and adjust each individual key action. To me the action feels "much" lighter than it was and it did relieve the uncomfortableness I experienced.
However, I would recommend you visit the store and play other grand pianos with lighter actions to see how you like it. While it is close to perfect, I have noticed that at my modest skill level, the lighter action is more difficult to control.
Just want to say that as appalled as I was this morning (and some other times on this forum), as happy I am now with these last honest and cheerful shares, @CyberGene's and @David B's in particular.
Being factual, real, as best as we can takes courage, wit and turning up reality and dealing with it takes a lot of relentless, hard, never ending work. But every step we do manage in this quality, paired with personal integrity, compassion and care, returns pure gold.
@CyberGene, please know that, in the short time that I am a PW member now, I did notice quite a few contributions of yours to this forum that I view with awe and that have inspired and helped quite a few people here. That, mixed with some of your real more amicable self, would be pure gold as well.
So David you can start the "Great Awakening" about Gods joy in playing the N1X
And God's joy in playing the N1X is best served with some Bach so here's my little contribution 😄
Amen to that! God bless all you good and kind folk here.
A man must love a thing very much if he practices it without any hope of fame or money, but even practice it without any hope of doing it well. Such a man must love the toils of the work more than any other man can love the rewards of it. G. K. Chesterton
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