2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad) SWEETWATER Cyber Week Deals
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
69 members (An Old Square, anotherscott, accordeur, bubbaXzone, 23 invisible), 614 guests, and 525 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,551
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,551
Originally Posted by Dallon426
I see it like this. With a good midi controller. Studiologic SL88 and a laptop, cheap interface, and monitors you've got endless sounds. There are so many fantastic piano libraries. Even the free Hammersmith library which also works in the free kontakt 6 player is better than the nord piano or any piano that I've heard coming out of a digital piano. Piano book has a ton of good libraries, spitfire audio labs has free Rhodes and Wurlitzer pianos and they sound incredible. Really.

So. I think it's much better to use a laptop and a good controller vs a dedicated digital piano. The idea of paying for a digital piano is a bit silly to me when laptops are far more superior and have endless options. Synths, drums etc etc.
Plus you can record yourself within a DAW.

The only reason to get a digital piano is if you're actually touring and or playing lots of gigs. Or you're technologically challenged. I can't think of any other reason.
Mac mini M1's are cheap, silent, and powerful!
That's what I am running and I am super happy with it.

That's why for the OP, the VPC1 is ideal, although as mentioned, the MP11SE has a nicer action still, and better triple pedal design, both of which would make playing a VST better.

I think the SL88 isn't going to satisfy the OP due to its action, but value wise, it's excellent.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7SE; Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 242
L
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
L
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 242
also, the free hammersmith sounds noticeably less real than the nord to me. the pro one is ok. so everyone has their opinions, but as an audio engineer who wants to record his piano, the nord is one of the best I've heard. keyscapes is ok, but I've heard issues with that as well.



look at my comment there and there are numerous places i can easily hear sample problems, and the reviewer doesn't even notice them. and those are deal breaking issues. i could never release a song with those noises in my track let alone enjoy playing that. and it's frustrating that more people don't notice them, because it's hard to know if that was an issue with his setup or what. but there is no demo of the vst. there are not many i find realistic frankly. so to get a nice controller only to find that i can't isolate good vst instruments would be disappointing. the mp11se for instance... i would not be happy with the onboard piano and yet so many think it sounds amazing. to my ears it doesn't pass the realism test.

so while many people say "there are so many vst out there" I've maybe heard 2 that i find acceptable, one of which has possible sample cutoff issues and the other is tied to proprietary hardware. I'm not discounting that there are great vst pianos. i just don't think it's as easy as "buy a controller and a vst and you can't lose". I'll need to do serious research to see what is out there. and i may still want to trigger a nord for the pianos. so that makes me wonder if the nord grand is still a simpler, better option. it's also not tied to a computer, and while that is not a difficult thing to setup, it's a computer. I'm also a technical support specialist. and computers constsntly have issues. OS updates, compatibility issues, performance glitches, etc. etc. i could theoretically have a nord for 30 years with zero changes. having a computer will guarantee that at some point I'll need to deal with troubleshooting, configuration, etc. not to mention just having one physically at the keyboard.

a macbook air is probably the only way that would seem feasible to me. i don't want a monitor and keyboard setup in my living room. in a studio, sure, but not in a tiny living room. so it's just specific to each use case. i am still considering the vpc1 idea for its flexibility and action. but even then, i haven't played it, and what one finds great i may not like. and not having access to try one is pretty disconcerting at that price point. i still have some thinking to do.

i appreciate all the input and suggestions. can anyone point me to more sample libraries they believe sound as good as the nord?

Last edited by luisdent; 06/21/21 08:27 AM.
Joined: Jun 2021
Posts: 20
D
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Jun 2021
Posts: 20
I don't know man. I've heard amazing sample libraries and they are getting better. Ravenscroft from UAD. UVI has great libraries, kontakt as well. Etc. My biggest complaint with most libraries are the fact that they don't support half damping. I just don't understand why they wouldn't. I don't know if the nord has half damping but I doubt it.
The other day I was talking to a piano technician and he told me that his favorite piano action and the one he found the most authentic was on the Yamaha CP-88. He said it's far superior to anything he's played including the Nord. The sounds are also really impressive so that might be something worth looking into

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 242
L
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
L
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 242
Originally Posted by Dallon426
I don't know man. I've heard amazing sample libraries and they are getting better. Ravenscroft from UAD. UVI has great libraries, kontakt as well. Etc. My biggest complaint with most libraries are the fact that they don't support half damping. I just don't understand why they wouldn't. I don't know if the nord has half damping but I doubt it.
The other day I was talking to a piano technician and he told me that his favorite piano action and the one he found the most authentic was on the Yamaha CP-88. He said it's far superior to anything he's played including the Nord. The sounds are also really impressive so that might be something worth looking into

it does half damper. yes. and the cp88 is a valid option, but i played the ydp184 which is gh3, but not wood, and it didn't really wow me in any way. just a generally good action. is the cp88 better somehow? other than texture? or does the wood change the action mechanics?

Last edited by luisdent; 06/21/21 11:57 AM.
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,551
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,551
Digital piano tone is highly subjective. It took me a while to adjust from my Yamaha to my Kawai. However, the mind adjusts and eventually becomes attuned to the nuances of a Kawai piano sample.

The Nord white grand has a lovely bright tone but it reacts weirdly when moving across the dynamic range. To me, this kills it as a piano, but not as an instrument.

Those who like the Nord will probably enjoy the P515.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7SE; Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,551
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,551
Originally Posted by luisdent
Originally Posted by Dallon426
I don't know man. I've heard amazing sample libraries and they are getting better. Ravenscroft from UAD. UVI has great libraries, kontakt as well. Etc. My biggest complaint with most libraries are the fact that they don't support half damping. I just don't understand why they wouldn't. I don't know if the nord has half damping but I doubt it.
The other day I was talking to a piano technician and he told me that his favorite piano action and the one he found the most authentic was on the Yamaha CP-88. He said it's far superior to anything he's played including the Nord. The sounds are also really impressive so that might be something worth looking into

it does half damper. yes. and the cp88 is a valid option, but i played the ydp184 which is gh3, but not wood, and it didn't really wow me in any way. just a generally good action. is the cp88 better somehow? other than texture? or does the wood change the action mechanics?

No, the wood is irrelevant to the mechanics. The CP88 action is very fast, unnaturally so. Great for fast repeating notes. What lets it down for playing piano to oneself or solo pieces is the lack of string resonance and binaural sampling. With these facets missing, even the earlier CP4 competes with the CP88 piano sample. On the other hand, the P515 has a more piano like action (NWX) and the CFX sample contains string resonance and binaural sampling. The only downside to the instrument is the downweight is on the heavy side. Much heavier than the FP90X and the ES920. That said, it's just a matter of getting used to it.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7SE; Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 242
L
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
L
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 242
Originally Posted by Doug M.
Digital piano tone is highly subjective. It took me a while to adjust from my Yamaha to my Kawai. However, the mind adjusts and eventually becomes attuned to the nuances of a Kawai piano sample.

The Nord white grand has a lovely bright tone but it reacts weirdly when moving across the dynamic range. To me, this kills it as a piano, but not as an instrument.

Those who like the Nord will probably enjoy the P515.

i dislike then nord white grand. ironically for some reasons i dislike most other sampled pianos. it also has some weird noises in the lower mid register that are annoying. but the 3d grand is probably the best I've heard from nord. the studio is second and the amber upright is possibly the most realistic I've ever heard albeit an upright..

I've heard and played many pianos and can guarantee if i hear issues up front i will never likely grow to like it. in fact usually the opposite. the roland supermatural piano sounded ok initially (i know it isn't sampled) but as i played it more the fake metallic synthesis just really got on my nerves. the dynamics are superb since it is essentially more dynamic, but that is it. my aunt has a high end yamaha digital piano that is supposedly one of their top sampled pianos. i don't remember the model, but it was ok. nothing objectionable, but never once have i heard a yamaha sample that didn't immediately strike me as fake. good, sure. but would never fool me.

I'm not criticizing any pianos or anyone who likes them. I'm just saying that i know my preferences and these just don't convince me sonically. i have played and recorded acoustic pianos and mix and master music, so maybe i listen for different things? i don't know. but when i play something that sounds "like" a piano but isn't "fully like" a real piano i dislike the experience. I'd rather play an e piano or rhodes or something synthesized. but when something like the nord or maybe keyscape from what I've heard sounds so good, i enjoy it greatly. but that's where the action just takes it from meh, to oooh, to wow. I'm at ooh. and i want wow. hahaha

i called a kawaii dealer in dallas which is hours away, but he said I'm not going to find a kawaii vpc1 or mp11se anywhere even if i called 50 stores. and they're all backordered online. so maybe i need to try a high end yamaha or roland action and call it a day?

Last edited by luisdent; 06/21/21 01:46 PM.
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,669
S
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,669
Quote
I don't know man. I've heard amazing sample libraries and they are getting better. Ravenscroft from UAD. UVI has great libraries, kontakt as well. Etc. My biggest complaint with most libraries are the fact that they don't support half damping.
So you are saying that VSTs are not an option for people who require support for partial pedal effects with the damper pedal.

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 242
L
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
L
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 242
Originally Posted by Doug M.
Originally Posted by luisdent
Originally Posted by Dallon426
I don't know man. I've heard amazing sample libraries and they are getting better. Ravenscroft from UAD. UVI has great libraries, kontakt as well. Etc. My biggest complaint with most libraries are the fact that they don't support half damping. I just don't understand why they wouldn't. I don't know if the nord has half damping but I doubt it.
The other day I was talking to a piano technician and he told me that his favorite piano action and the one he found the most authentic was on the Yamaha CP-88. He said it's far superior to anything he's played including the Nord. The sounds are also really impressive so that might be something worth looking into

it does half damper. yes. and the cp88 is a valid option, but i played the ydp184 which is gh3, but not wood, and it didn't really wow me in any way. just a generally good action. is the cp88 better somehow? other than texture? or does the wood change the action mechanics?

No, the wood is irrelevant to the mechanics. The CP88 action is very fast, unnaturally so. Great for fast repeating notes. What lets it down for playing piano to oneself or solo pieces is the lack of string resonance and binaural sampling. With these facets missing, even the earlier CP4 competes with the CP88 piano sample. On the other hand, the P515 has a more piano like action (NWX) and the CFX sample contains string resonance and binaural sampling. The only downside to the instrument is the downweight is on the heavy side. Much heavier than the FP90X and the ES920. That said, it's just a matter of getting used to it.

yeah, I'm trying to get used to the nord grand too before i pass judgement. the main purpose of this post is really about the action. i can find a vst or trigger the nord or whatever. but for the price, considering all factors, should i be stressing to try and find a better keybed to try? i just want a big purchase like this to not be rash and lose a lot of potential value if there are other options.

Last edited by luisdent; 06/21/21 01:49 PM.
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,565
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,565
I like the Kawai ES110, it's quite playable.


Harry Likas was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's The Jazz Theory Book and helped develop The Jazz Piano Book. Studied with Mark Levine 1985-89 and Barry Harris 1995-99
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,645
C
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,645
FWIW, on VST's --

Pianoteq supports both "continuous half-pedalling" and "string resonance".

. . . But you have to accept its sound, and some people don't.

I suspect one problem with sampling "half-pedalling", is the need for very precise adjustment of the pedal and damper mechanism of the source AP.

You'd want to sample a few different "half-pedal" positions, across the keyboard. During performance, a player adjusts his foot to the individual piano, to get the sound he wants, _as he plays_. During sampling, I don't know if that will work or not.


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,551
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,551
Originally Posted by luisdent
Originally Posted by Doug M.
Originally Posted by luisdent
Originally Posted by Dallon426
I don't know man. I've heard amazing sample libraries and they are getting better. Ravenscroft from UAD. UVI has great libraries, kontakt as well. Etc. My biggest complaint with most libraries are the fact that they don't support half damping. I just don't understand why they wouldn't. I don't know if the nord has half damping but I doubt it.
The other day I was talking to a piano technician and he told me that his favorite piano action and the one he found the most authentic was on the Yamaha CP-88. He said it's far superior to anything he's played including the Nord. The sounds are also really impressive so that might be something worth looking into

it does half damper. yes. and the cp88 is a valid option, but i played the ydp184 which is gh3, but not wood, and it didn't really wow me in any way. just a generally good action. is the cp88 better somehow? other than texture? or does the wood change the action mechanics?

No, the wood is irrelevant to the mechanics. The CP88 action is very fast, unnaturally so. Great for fast repeating notes. What lets it down for playing piano to oneself or solo pieces is the lack of string resonance and binaural sampling. With these facets missing, even the earlier CP4 competes with the CP88 piano sample. On the other hand, the P515 has a more piano like action (NWX) and the CFX sample contains string resonance and binaural sampling. The only downside to the instrument is the downweight is on the heavy side. Much heavier than the FP90X and the ES920. That said, it's just a matter of getting used to it.

yeah, I'm trying to get used to the nord grand too before i pass judgement. the main purpose of this post is really about the action. i can find a vst or trigger the nord or whatever. but for the price, considering all factors, should i be stressing to try and find a better keybed to try? i just want a big purchase like this to not be rash and lose a lot of potential value if there are other options.

All you can do is try out the various options--- as many as possible - - - and match the attributes of the pianos with your own values.

For instance, I didn't buy a VPC1 because I wanted a stage instrument. There was no competition at the MP7SE price point, and very few instruments have similar capabilities with the quality of action. (really only the RD2000). Thus, I opted for the Kawai knowing a VST would be available if I ever wanted an Apiano upgrade.

The MP11SE is even better, but it's so heavy that you need a roady to carry it.

The Nord Grand is super expensive and value is lacking. With the spare cash of buying a Kawai or Roland, you can buy really good monitors etc. The real benefit of the Nord is access to the sound libraries which means that you get upgrades for quite a while, until the memory required exceeds the on board available memory.

I think if straight piano is the goal, then the gadget aspect of stage pianos are superfluous. Billy Joel takes a Kawai around and uses VST instruments along with two Receptor stage computers so if one fails, he's got the other. Why didn't he buy the Nord? He's a pianist who values the action more.

So what do you value?

You know, action aside, the Dexibell Vivo S9 pro has better samples for acoustic piano. That's an amazing instrument, but the action is below par. Till you test a bunch of these instruments in one session, you won't easily be able to evaluate what you really want.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7SE; Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 242
L
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
L
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 242
i think if "want" is the key word, i probably want them all! haha. the mp11se seems like the best fit for my needs. even more than the vpc1. it has a respectable built in sound library, the best action, works well as a vst controller, is fairly attractive, cheaper than the nord.

i could buy the mp11se and a macbook air m1. trigger my existing nord if i want those pianos.thst seems like the best value proposition. as much as i love the nord sounds, i already have them. just not the better action...

assuming all that is true, the issue now is finding one...

Last edited by luisdent; 06/21/21 05:04 PM.
Joined: Jun 2021
Posts: 20
D
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Jun 2021
Posts: 20
I am sayiing mosy VST's do not support that. I know pianteq does and ravenscroft 275 does support it. But in general most do not.

Joined: Jun 2021
Posts: 20
D
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Jun 2021
Posts: 20
Originally Posted by luisdent
i think if "want" is the key word, i probably want them all! haha. the mp11se seems like the best fit for my needs. even more than the vpc1. it has a respectable built in sound library, the best action, works well as a vst controller, is fairly attractive, cheaper than the nord.

i could buy the mp11se and a macbook air m1. trigger my existing nord if i want those pianos.thst seems like the best value proposition. as much as i love the nord sounds, i already have them. just not the better action...

assuming all that is true, the issue now is finding one...


I think you should try a studiologic grand 88. I have heard good things about them and it is by far the cheaper option out there. Or a Yamaha CP1 or CP4.

Or........ Just say screw it and get a Yamaha Silent Piano. I have also looked at that option. I am kicking myself because I just missed out on buying a fender rhodes 73 for 800€ Missed it by a day!

Last edited by Dallon426; 06/21/21 05:22 PM.
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 242
L
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
L
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 242
no offense but i don't want anything with a fatar keybed. :-P

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 17,714
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 17,714
Originally Posted by luisdent
I'd be curious to trigger the nord with the vpc1. I've read that kawai uses different midi values for the 3 sensor hammery mechanism which cause note issues?

can anyone verify that?

May I ask if you can provide some links/references regarding this, please?

I believe Maurus (a respondent in this thread) uses a VPC1 to trigger sounds on his Nord, so it may be worthwhile contacting him to confirm the setup.

I've never had any problems using an MP8II to trigger sound on NE3, however that's a 2-sensor action.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 242
L
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
L
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 242
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by luisdent
I'd be curious to trigger the nord with the vpc1. I've read that kawai uses different midi values for the 3 sensor hammery mechanism which cause note issues?

can anyone verify that?

May I ask if you can provide some links/references regarding this, please?

I believe Maurus (a respondent in this thread) uses a VPC1 to trigger sounds on his Nord, so it may be worthwhile contacting him to confirm the setup.

I've never had any problems using an MP8II to trigger sound on NE3, however that's a 2-sensor action.

Kind regards,
James
x

issue

apparently nord even acknowledged this. I'm not sure if it was ever resolved or even an issue on the grand...

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 242
L
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
L
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 242
If anyone is interested, albeit a bit of a random song, here is the first thing I have recorded on my nord grand.

Improv for Lovers

Royal Grand 3D. a few db of hall reverb. Otherwise, stock piano sound.

Last edited by luisdent; 06/21/21 09:52 PM.
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 242
L
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
L
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 242
sorry. it was 2.8db of stage reverb :-P

Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
Pianos - Organs - & Keyboards, Oh My!
My first professionally recorded piece
---------------------
Visit Maine, Meet Mr. Piano World
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Cateen plays I Got Rhythm
by pianoloverus - 12/02/21 04:38 PM
Cateen plays I Got Rhythm
by pianoloverus - 12/02/21 03:44 PM
My tech knows I am OCD
by RobAC - 12/02/21 02:09 PM
A little OT - a Thanksgiving Day piano float
by Rich Galassini - 12/02/21 01:50 PM
Preventing noise transmission
by happyhacker - 12/02/21 01:35 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics210,354
Posts3,150,268
Members103,492
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5