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Originally Posted by Snowstorm
I am doing the RCM program and I have decided to stay with the program and my teacher.

I like the program and I like my teacher.

I was wondering how it would be to do in person lessons, never done that before.

I was naive and thought maybe there would be more ABRSM teachers in my area but that is not the case.

Just like RCM, I would have to find an ABRSM teacher online, it would defeat the purpose and like I said I like my teacher and the program.
I think that's the best course for you, as you're happy with RCM. If you don't do exams, there's practically no difference anyway. (For RCM, you'd have to memorize your exam pieces, which you don't for ABRSM).

There are many similarities between RCM and ABRSM, but ABRSM is internationally widely known and used in many countries around the world. RCM is Canadian, and the vast majority of American teachers (and students) shun it, but at least, there are a few teachers who know about it in the US.

A structured approach to learning like the RCM and ABRSM is the best way for classically-minded students to ensure they get taught everything they need, or will need in the future for their musical explorations. Otherwise, it's entirely down to the teacher's expertise - and whims.......(and I've read a lot of strange methods from other teachers here - including teaching students only the teacher's own compositions, jumping from one disparate thing to another, or never checking that the student can actually read music because they always play every piece for the student, who simply copies the teacher note by note.)

In person lessons are always better, if you can get them.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
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Originally Posted by fatar760
I'm not attacking you personally at all. You stated you don't teach adult learners and I, and others, said you really should before making judgements.
Yet again....sigh.

Do I need to repeat - what I said is fact, not my "judgment"?
Fact based on what teachers and students wrote in PW.

Quote
This student was around 08/09 and I cannot recall her individual markings from each of her three exams. I doubt many teachers could. To get over 130 marks I'd suggest her markings in these areas were high.
In which case, evidently, someone else did the exam for her.

It won't be the first time this has happened in a practical exam, where the examiner doesn't know what the student looks like.
Quote
I have no desire to 'continue' anything with you via PM or otherwise, particularly as you seem to evade questions and leap down someone's throat when they disagree with you (and people WILL disagree with you), how you choose to respond is a choice, and your responses don't invite an open dialogue - in fact your penultimate was quite aggressive.
I call a spade a spade, not a gardening tool.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
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ABRSM grade level 4-
2 Alto clef (C clef centred on 3rd line). Notes in the alto clef in
any of the keys set for this grade (see below). Notes of the
same pitch written in different clefs (treble, alto, bass) and
transposition at the octave from the treble or the bass clef
to the alto clef, and vice versa....

Why the Alto Clef? I understand having a quick look at it, but playing on it?

As far as teaching,

I tell my students that I want them to see it, say it, read it, play it, write it, etc.... So, most of what is on the exam from the ABRSM theory syllabus, my students do get depending on their level and practice.

My "trick"- the last page in each book (lesson, theory, tech/art, performance...or a piece I give them) I tell them, I am NOT going to show you anything about this piece. Scan it now, and talk to me about what you see. You MUST sort it out ON YOUR OWN and play it WELL in order to receive a book prize and promote to the next level.

The prizes are fun trinkets and small colorful office supplies and the kids are thrilled to accomplish completing a book level!

And, I am thrilled that they are learning.

Just be nice and teach well.


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Knowledge of the alto clef at ABRSM G4 Theory is I think a recent introduction, since these exams went totally online only this year. (G6-8 can still be taken in paper form.) So some things which were previously in but are not easily marked in an online format, e.g. writing an answering phrase to a given phrase, were replaced with questions that have a clear correct or incorrect answer. The Alto clef used to be in the G8 theory paper.
However, like most of the content up to G5 theory, the knowledge required is a very basic understanding of what the clef means and how the notes relate to the treble and bass. It's not rocket science to transpose an octave up or down when you know where middle C is located and where to place the sharps and flats. There is no requirement to perform from it. After all, single clef instrument players who use alto or tenor clefs have to do the majority of written theory work in clefs they don't practice, probably much to their aggravation!

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Originally Posted by missbelle
Why the Alto Clef? I understand having a quick look at it, but playing on it?

I'm assuming that this is the theory part?
I did RCM theory, and in the higher level of rudiments there was alto clef, tenor clef - a bit higher there were transposing instruments, transposing in and out of concert pitch, and more.

Students doing ABRSM (or RCM) theory play all kinds of instruments. Viola students use the alto clef. Other instruments use the tenor clef.

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Fatar, I have long given up on this, but I had the same concerns. The concern comes when someone is looking for advice, and things come across as facts, when they are trying their way.

So in this bit:

Originally Posted by bennevis
Do I need to repeat - what I said is fact, not my "judgment"?
Fact based on what teachers and students wrote in PW.

The statement Fatar responded to had this in the beginning:

Quote
Hardly any teacher spends any time on aural training, if they don't follow any syllabus (RCM, ABRSM, AMEB)........and some don't even teach scales & arpeggios. It's all about teaching pieces - often 'songs' that the student likes.

And this applies especially to teaching adult students.

That doesn't mean they can't teach following the requirements of ABRSM, of course, but if the student isn't actually doing the exams, he might not know how well he has been taught.

The student recitals organised by most teachers in the US just show the students' ability to play pieces. And some have even been taught those pieces by rote.

Yes, there is a preamble about having read things in the forum. Important point: impressions via what one reads on forum are not "fact" about how music is taught. At best, you get a view what those people who decide to write in the forum, decide to write. It may or may not be accurate. It may or may not be representative. Who is NOT writing in, and why? How many people - teachers as well as students - don't bother writing in (anymore)? How many teachers who teach never join any forum? How many of their students.

You cannot know whether, or how much time, teachers spend giving aural training. Literally, you cannot know. None of us can.

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Originally Posted by missbelle
ABRSM grade level 4-

Why the Alto Clef? I understand having a quick look at it, but playing on it?

For most of us there is not a lot of utility. If you also play a brass instrument you need basic familiarity; if you play first trombone in a symphony it may be most of what you see. If you play organ in church i would guess never.

My mother had 7 C clefs and that is how she transposed. So for her it made sense


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Originally Posted by keystring
Fatar, I have long given up on this, but I had the same concerns. The concern comes when someone is looking for advice, and things come across as facts, when they are trying their way.

So in this bit:

Originally Posted by bennevis
Do I need to repeat - what I said is fact, not my "judgment"?
Fact based on what teachers and students wrote in PW.

The statement Fatar responded to had this in the beginning:

Quote
Hardly any teacher spends any time on aural training, if they don't follow any syllabus (RCM, ABRSM, AMEB)........and some don't even teach scales & arpeggios. It's all about teaching pieces - often 'songs' that the student likes.

And this applies especially to teaching adult students.

That doesn't mean they can't teach following the requirements of ABRSM, of course, but if the student isn't actually doing the exams, he might not know how well he has been taught.

The student recitals organised by most teachers in the US just show the students' ability to play pieces. And some have even been taught those pieces by rote.

Yes, there is a preamble about having read things in the forum. Important point: impressions via what one reads on forum are not "fact" about how music is taught. At best, you get a view what those people who decide to write in the forum, decide to write. It may or may not be accurate. It may or may not be representative. Who is NOT writing in, and why? How many people - teachers as well as students - don't bother writing in (anymore)? How many teachers who teach never join any forum? How many of their students.

You cannot know whether, or how much time, teachers spend giving aural training. Literally, you cannot know. None of us can.

Yes, all these claims that I questioned get a personal attack as a response. I found his responses highly defensive and immature, akin to arguing with an arrogant teenager who thinks they know it all. Did he seriously question a student having someone else sit their exam for them on THREE occasions? I'm sorry but you can't have a fruitful conversation with someone demonstrating that logic. We all know it. I've now given up with him too. Fortunately there are plenty of good people here too!

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Originally Posted by fatar760
Yes, all these claims that I questioned get a personal attack as a response. I found his responses highly defensive and immature, akin to arguing with an arrogant teenager who thinks they know it all.
OK, I see you're still at it, attacking me initially with your first post here, then claiming 'innocence'. And now attacking me again.
And you want to continue this in public here, when I - very politely - asked you to keep any further discussion to PMs?

Are you afraid of being shown up for who you are?

Read your own posts. I responded to you in kind, as is my wont.


Quote
Did he seriously question a student having someone else sit their exam for them on THREE occasions?
Have you heard of the saying: "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."? Obviously not. (Look it up to see who said it.)

Are you saying that all the examiners - all three different ones in three different exams - are corrupt, or know nothing about music, that they give very high marks in a sight-reading test to someone who can't read music? Or the whole ABRSM system is corrupt?

Or how about - the same candidate got the same 'stand-in' to do the exams for her, each time?

Which do you think is most likely? Use logic: I assume you have it?

Of course, I'm assuming you are not making the story up.......

Maybe my assumption is incorrect?


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If the personal attacks continue some people are headed for a vacation, perhaps a permanent one.


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Originally Posted by fatar 76
Yes, all these claims that I questioned get a personal attack as a response.....
This is in response to my post. I'd like to keep diverting the focus to facts and reality, and for none of us to get side-tracked by the rest.

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Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by fatar 76
Yes, all these claims that I questioned get a personal attack as a response.....
This is in response to my post. I'd like to keep diverting the focus to facts and reality, and for none of us to get side-tracked by the rest.

That's correct - thank you Keystring.

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I always tell my friends if you think arguing about politics is bad you haven’t visited a piano forum lately.

Can’t we all just get along? It’s piano folks. THE PIANO!

Seriously what could we possibly be arguing or attacking each other over?

Last edited by Jethro; 06/24/21 09:36 PM.

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Originally Posted by Jethro
Seriously what could we possibly be arguing or attacking each other over?

Ego.


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Thank you for the messages of support, and to Greg for intervening.

I just wanted to let you know, in case some of you weren't aware (like I wasn't), that there is an option to ignore any user that may be causing you grief:

If you click on their name, view profile, and then there's a row of 4 buttons - one of which says 'ignore user'. I activated this for the first time a few days ago and it prohibits you from viewing their posts.

Maybe some of you know about it but, like I say, I didn't know this existed until recently and it isn't particularly obvious until you search for it, so thought I'd mention it.

Peace to all.

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The only problem, you need to be logged on in order for ignore to work (I tried ignoring someone in the past, not anyone form this thread) .

Most of the time I am not logged in, so it does not really work for me.

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Originally Posted by Snowstorm
The only problem, you need to be logged on in order for ignore to work (I tried ignoring someone in the past, not anyone form this thread) .

Most of the time I am not logged in, so it does not really work for me.


How's the teacher search going; any luck yet?

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Fatar760 I sent you a pm a while back.

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Originally Posted by Snowstorm
Fatar760 I sent you a pm a while back.

Hiya,

I'm afraid it didn't reach me - would you mind re-sending?

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