Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum When are you beyond beginner?

What I don’t understand is why people’s worlds fall apart if someone considers themselves a beginner even if they do attempt to play more advanced pieces. Based upon the recent posts in this thread you can’t win regardless of what you do. As a few have been saying it’s all relative. When compared to the concert pianist teachers I work with personally I absolutely consider myself a beginner just starting out my piano journey.

Then perhaps the question, am I beginner, is best left for a teacher like you to answer?

Hi

You have a healthy respect for what it takes— in terms of years, skill development and effort. That is great! Why openly assign a level to yourself? That information might only be asked by a prospective teacher — in which case you can just say you assign yourself a label of ‘lifetime learner’. Level should be irrelevant to anyone else.

1 artificial measure is a person's conservatory grade level (RCM / ABRSM). Some students would perform once a year in a recital organized by their teachers while others would practice for their teachers for years without a performance. I'd classify some people who can play some of the pieces they learned / are learning as intermediate (or above beginner). I met people who claim to pass conservatory levels but haven't touched a piano for years. Without hearing them play a song, I can't rate them.

Reading music is another artificial measure. If we assume all professional pianists / keyboard players know how to read, then we already eliminated most of the Pop singers who plays piano except the few who had Classical training. In a piano recital I want to hear somebody perform. Whether he reads his pieces is irrelevant.

There are people who can play by ear and managed to learn a few pieces they always wanted to play. Even if they have not mastered all the techniques: counting, staccato, legato, trill, etc., at least they can play convincingly. If someone tells me he passed a Gr. 4 level exam, the next question would be which pieces have he played recently or pieces he is comfortable playing?

Are you suggesting that squirrels don't understand piano technique? I hear they're big fans of the Nutcracker, and that's pretty technical.

I was wrong, squirrels can play piano!

https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/instruments/piano/red-squirrel-playing-grand-photos/

I watched a youtube video of a young lady doing a piano demonstration and at the end she apologized for her playing saying “I am only an RCM level 8. My thoughts, If only I could be that bad!

One of my favorite professional performing piano players claims he has the worst technique, can not read sheet music and at a concert, I sat so I could watch his hands. He had the worst technique I have ever seen, but he has numerous records and is sold out at his performances. He certainly skipped a lot of technical development. But his music…Wow!

Whether a person is “Modest” or “Dishonest” about their ability, there is a remedy:

In the professional world it is an audition.

In the amateur world it is a recital or competition.

And the ultimate on Youtube there are the likes/dislikes and comments.

Don’t ask me how good I am, ask me to play and you decide.

I’m no Heifetz, but I get by.

Haha and they stole my not-at-all-obvious Nutcracker joke!

I shouldn't critter-size....

1. Passing a grade level is a reasonable measure of one's skill level.It certainly says more than giving a verbal description or even giving one's most recent repertoire. What it doesn't measure is how high a grade one got to pass the level. Passing with a high grade means more than with a low grade. It also doesn't say what percent of the time the student worked on the exam material to pass a given grade. A student who needs to spend most of his time between exams preparing for the next exam isn't as skilled as someone who gets a similar grade but doesn't spend as much time preparing.

2. Reading music is a different skill from performing but there is a strong correlation between one's performing skill and one's sight reading skill.

In case this was directed at me, I don't personally mind. I would also not mind calling myself a beginner in front of a concert pianist. I just think that words have meanings, and we shouldn't obfuscate things by calling both a grade 1 and diploma-level pianist beginners It's fine to say that you don't feel you have gotten very far in your piano journey yet, or that you still consider yourself to be a relative beginner etc. I think it's just a bit misleading to only say that you're a beginner after acquiring skills that would take most people thousands of hours to achieve. And saying that to someone who is a true beginner can make them feel like they're not cut out for it. I also think a lot of people are posturing when they say these things and it really gets on my nerves. That is, someone says something trite like "we're all beginners at the end of the day" and everyone just agrees because they are supposed to be "modest", if you get what I mean. Virtue signaling. I don't mind it if someone is truly humble. And I know what you mean when you're talking about feeling like a beginner in front of truly advanced pianists, I feel that as well.

No Ranjit, sorry it wasn't directed at you or no one in particular in this thread. I find that many in the forums feel this way but I can't help a true beginner if it makes then feel like they're not cut out for it. What they are not understanding is that there is no finish line in this "race". I have to admit something though. A few posts up I declared that I am now ready to accept myself as an "advanced intermediate" with holes at the beginner level. No I'm not! I'm being dishonest and lying to myself. I don't feel that at all. I just said it to make others feel better but it was a lie. I feel like a beginner with many many years to go before I get to where I want to be. In regards to others based upon my standards for musicianship at the piano I would say most here are beginners as well some are just much farther back at the beginning than others. Who cares? We all strive to improve one day at a time. There is no finish line. But what I do know when I compare myself to the world class pianists that have and continue to teach me I can't see how I can be anything but a beginner. I am about to begin with a new teacher next week. Unfortunately my current teacher is moving on from her training at the academy I attend and she is accepting a full time tenure track position at a university. My former teacher has won multiple international competitions. She regularly records with Ian Hobson and cellists who collaborate with itzhak Perlman. I will miss her sorely but we plan to keep in touch. My new teacher got her piano degrees at the Moscow Conservatory and Julliard and she also competes in international competitions but this is just her side job. She actually is a world class harpsichordist and artist in residence who builds her own harpsichords and she plans to bring one to our academy. Imagine going to Julliard and entering piano competitions as extracurricular activity. Who am I to call myself anything but a beginner. Weeks can go by before I can spend more than an hour at a time in front of the piano. I'm too busy with work.

As long as you are learning new things, you are a beginner. If you are intelligent, and fortunate, you will remain a beginner your entire life.

While I haven't met pianists of that caliber, I know what you mean. Holds true for anything really. I've met some would-be mathematicians in college, and my skills really paled in comparison to theirs. No matter how high up you go, you'll meet someone super talented who kicks ass. It takes one to know one, as they say. No, I'm not denying that at all. It's very valid from your perspective. But it's like an MIT student looking at someone who is extremely talented and feeling like they know nothing. And indeed, they do know very little from the perspective of someone who has mastery of the subject. Still, it may not be a fair assessment on the part of the student to say they are a beginner. They are already within the top 1% of ability, but there's still a vast spectrum. Of course, there's nothing wrong about saying that you feel like you know nothing, I just feel it's important to make that distinction between perceived and true ability.

We’re still learning. Even a familiar piece we always find something new. I’d put pianists into 3 groups: beginner, intermediate & advance. People who perform regularly are considered advance. The majority including myself who can play a few songs are in intermediate. The absolute beginners are people who are not yet comfortable playing even easy pieces.

Even people who learned to play only 1 or several pieces by rote I’d consider him to be intermediate even if he isn’t a proficient reader.

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But what I do know when I compare myself to the world class pianists that have and continue to teach me I can't see how I can be anything but a beginner.

When saying :

a) I am a beginner.
b) I am still a beginner compared to a world class pianist.

Those 2 sentences mean completely different things and are not to be used interchangeably. The second one does not mean you are a beginner, and factually it does not say much about your level. It means you still have a lot to learn. It says more about your approach to piano and your humbleness.

Just like when one says:

a) This table is red.
b) The table A has a more reddish color than table B.

In the second one, table A could be anything but red. In fact it usually implies that it is actually not red.

That said, I think technically speaking, that we all tend to overemphasize the gap to an average pro level. I would be controversial and say that the majority of people, with average abilities, starting the piano as kids, with dedicated work and seriousness could reach an excellent near professional level if they wanted to. The rest is a matter of hours of work. Some very selected people are born with unusually high abilities (<0.01% of pianists). The very best in any art or activities are exceptional people which to some extent, it does not make much sense to compare with, because we will never get there. If I were to (re)start learning painting, I will never become Da Vinci, because I am not gifted (i know that because I did paint occasionally). So that type of comparison does not say really much. It would make more sense to compare oneself with a more reasonable target like a diploma level of some sort.

I really only thought there was levels of pianist because there are levels of pieces. Such as beginner, advanced, etc. but I now it realize what you play doesn't mean you're a certain "level" Now that I think about it and read these posts it really doesn't matter whether I call myself beginner or intermediate, it doesn't change anything. I do think passing graded exams would still be cool and a nice badge to have. For me I'm just happy and proud that I have stuck with it this long as so many give up once they realize how challenging it is. What I also find fascinating is that not that many people out there can play an instrument, at any leve, so beginner or concert pianist I think it's all very impressive!

I think if you are new in your first few years of piano it is important to find music at your level and also try not to compare to others. I think comparing to others is a problem in general with society but for a beginner who will lots of problems due to being a new skill it can be very difficult to play to others. Finding a group to play your pieces however can be very useful so it is good to try to get over the fear of playing to others early. It is important to remember that everyone was a beginner and most of the people who play pieces to a higher level have sometimes decades more learning than you have so not fair to compare. Its also important to remember that very simple music can be great also so its important to take pride in the level you have achieved .

The label of beginner I think can also be a mental barrier. I think perhaps real beginners are people who are just starting and going through a method book and once they have gone onto real music then perhaps then it would be beyond beginner. I would say even at Grade 1 level you are playing real music. It maybe harder to find music at this level but there is plenty of tunes here. Everyone has to start from a beginner stage but most people who are successful are the ones that are persistent and I think maybe not having high expectations and enjoying the process helps. I think the type A personality that is very driven and stressed is likely to over practice and then give up. I am sure it works but perhaps a more flexible approach can be better. Having support from a teacher helps but I am aware many struggle with teachers route but going solo is extremely difficult if you push up the difficulty of the music.

All barriers I think you can eventually do break through but having help really helps. I remember a comment here that to play faster pieces you have to practice faster music and this is a great example. there are many adult learners than just stick to slow chopin nocturnes and then say they cant play fast etc. On the other hand people on the other end who have very hard music early. (Schubert impromptu opus 90 no 4 I would love to hear a performance from someone who has learnt for 2 years. I would not recommend Schubert imptomptu, imprompti?, to anyone. Opus 90 no 3 was a long struggle. I have not played any Schubert since then and have a fear of long pieces !).

I'm confused. You said that you have played Chopin's Gm Ballade. I've never known a teacher who describes someone who can play this reasonably well as a beginning pianist.

This is a good thread but some of the response are ridiculous.

Some claims that if you are still improving or learning new things you are a beginner.

So with that logic, Martha Argerich, Lang Lang, etc, are beginners because they are still learning new things and improving. Ridiculous!

I personally find it help to label the pianist level. It just makes it easy when talking to someone.

I am doing the RCM program so in my case it is easy.

I think it is:

RCM 1-4 Beginner
RCM 5-8 Intermediate
RCM 9-10 Advanced

https://files.rcmusic.com//sites/default/files/files/RCM-Piano-Syllabus-2015.pdf

I think almost all pianists describe their level based on the level pieces they can perform well and not by comparing themselves to top professional pianists(and calling themselves beginners). If one is taking something like the RCM program then the best way is by giving the specific numerical level in RCM. Their groupings of 1-4 as Beginner etc. are arbitrary although a reasonable guideline.