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#3134103 07/03/21 02:38 PM
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I apologize if the attached image has been posted before.
I emailed it to my daughter's piano teacher and said it reminded me of the two of them years ago. smile
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SillyCrab #3134106 07/03/21 02:54 PM
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I feel hungry...

SillyCrab #3134114 07/03/21 03:11 PM
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I hadn’t seen this before and it’s great! 😺


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It's ok to be a Work In Progress
SillyCrab #3134149 07/03/21 04:40 PM
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This is a great idea for anyone who knows English. Rhythmic language Takadimi is universal for everyone.
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Nahum #3135189 07/06/21 08:47 PM
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I've never seen the Takidami system before. That's really interesting. Thanks for that.

dogperson #3135219 07/06/21 10:21 PM
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A taiko instructor used some of these with a beginner's class, but this is a larger list than I've seen.

Thanks !

Now, we need a swing version . . .

smile


. Charles
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PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq
SillyCrab #3135231 07/06/21 11:55 PM
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I'm actually not comfortable with all of them because of how we emphasize syllables and pronounce words. If you already know how to count correctly, you can bend the words to the rhythms, but if you start with the words, you can get the rhythms wrong. Some work.

hot fudge sundae --- I'd say "sundae" faster than "hot fudge" - like two quarter notes and two eighths - not 4 eighths in a row.
chocolate strawberry works as long as you pronounce the first word as "choc'late" (not everyone does)
cheese ravioli - I'd be stretching the "o" in "ravioli" distorting the beat - or in the least, the ravioli would be eighth notes, not sixteenths
chips and guacamole - I think each syllable would have the same beat, rather than "chips and" being twice as long as the remaining syllables.

That's how I 'm experiencing it. Others?

keystring #3135249 07/07/21 03:18 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
I'm actually not comfortable with all of them because of how we emphasize syllables and pronounce words. If you already know how to count correctly, you can bend the words to the rhythms, but if you start with the words, you can get the rhythms wrong. Some work.

hot fudge sundae --- I'd say "sundae" faster than "hot fudge" - like two quarter notes and two eighths - not 4 eighths in a row.
chocolate strawberry works as long as you pronounce the first word as "choc'late" (not everyone does)
cheese ravioli - I'd be stretching the "o" in "ravioli" distorting the beat - or in the least, the ravioli would be eighth notes, not sixteenths
chips and guacamole - I think each syllable would have the same beat, rather than "chips and" being twice as long as the remaining syllables.

That's how I 'm experiencing it. Others?


I assume if someone used the food examples in teaching, they would pronounce them and clap to the rhythm with the student. IMHO, this is not difficult to use the pronunciation that works.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It's ok to be a Work In Progress
SillyCrab #3135258 07/07/21 03:53 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
I'm actually not comfortable with all of them because of how we emphasize syllables and pronounce words. If you already know how to count correctly, you can bend the words to the rhythms, but if you start with the words, you can get the rhythms wrong.
The only question of comfort is not decisive when learning new things in the game; for example, playing the violin for a beginner is an unnatural thing, and even painful. You can talk about expediency and rationality. Comparison of the rhythmic pronunciation of words vs syllables for multilingual musicians gives an indisputable advantage to the syllable pronunciation. Tau Taka is just rhythmically more accurate than Grape Soda .
Takadimi uses extracts from the Karnatic of the millennia-old Konnakol rhythmic language, which proves its validity.
Ethnomusicological research on African rhythm has suggested that African music requires greater active engagement in order to maintain meter perception , puts greater importance on rhythm and meter than Western music does , commonly has ongoing metrical tension , and tends to be metrically ambiguous .
(Cross-cultural influences on rhythm processing: reproduction, discrimination, and beat tapping )
For historical reasons, Eurocentric pedagogy still has to learn from non-European rhythmic cultures.

SillyCrab #3135269 07/07/21 06:23 AM
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I think the picture is very nice as a quick reference. If I would be a piano teacher I would have it hanging on my wall. But you have to use it intelligently. For instance, in avocado toast, make sure that you say toast just as long as avocado. A-vo-ca-do toa-oa-oa-oast.


Playing the piano is learning to create, playfully and deeply seriously, our own music in the world.
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... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...
SillyCrab #3135277 07/07/21 07:49 AM
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The use of words/phrases to remember various musical elements can be useful as a starting point.

With regards to rhythm, in the grand scheme of things, students should learn the relationship between note values, and recognising patterns, rather than memorising food combinations. By relying on this method you're asking them to work harder than they need to.

fatar760 #3135286 07/07/21 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by fatar760
With regards to rhythm, in the grand scheme of things, students should learn the relationship between note values, and recognising patterns,

I am not sure an intellectual relationship between note values is how we play, or is even helpful at all for beginners. Of course we do all have to learn it but I don't think it's how we play music. Just my opinion - and seems to be that of my bell ringers too.

That poster is interesting but there is no syncopation, no jazz rhythms. It's as if none of us will ever venture past the SATB hymn in 4/4. There's nothing there that most of us couldn't read at sight without effort, but what I play with an ensemble is a real struggle that takes intense concentration and listening.


gotta go practice
TimR #3135308 07/07/21 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by TimR
Originally Posted by fatar760
With regards to rhythm, in the grand scheme of things, students should learn the relationship between note values, and recognising patterns,

I am not sure an intellectual relationship between note values is how we play, or is even helpful at all for beginners. Of course we do all have to learn it but I don't think it's how we play music. Just my opinion - and seems to be that of my bell ringers too.

That poster is interesting but there is no syncopation, no jazz rhythms. It's as if none of us will ever venture past the SATB hymn in 4/4. There's nothing there that most of us couldn't read at sight without effort, but what I play with an ensemble is a real struggle that takes intense concentration and listening.

Well, I didn't say the intellectual relationship between notes was how we play. I said that the relationship between note values should be learnt as well as recognising patterns; the latter of which I think is more practical than the former.

I'd extend this to note reading too. We may use mnemonics as an entry point into understanding notes on the stave, but in practical terms seeing scalic/chord patterns and knowing the notes from sight is preferential.


Reading the 'rhythm words' is only really helpful if you can hear it (or read it in this case). I could say 'Avocado' and it could mean ANY rhythm combination from 4 semiquavers, 4 crotchets, 4 quavers or even a syncopated 1, +, 2+, 3+....

dogperson #3135687 07/08/21 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
I assume if someone used the food examples in teaching, they would pronounce them and clap to the rhythm with the student. IMHO, this is not difficult to use the pronunciation that works.
I've reiterated objections that teachers who teach music have pointed out to me. There is another problem. The teacher already knows the correct rhythms, and is referring back to that, while giving the words. But the student is familiar, above all, with words he has spoken his whole life. He'll not say "hot - fudge - sun - dae" but "hot - fudge - sundae", especially when practising at home.
Words have stressed syllables, a tendency to stretch this and that. Here I am writing as a a linguist as well as someone with training and experience in second language teaching, with an emphasis on speech. You have the same problem in reverse where the patterns of the mother tongue creeps into the new language: that's a key cause of "foreign accents". Languages have rhythms and cadences. (French is probably a better language for this since you don't have varied stressing of syllables in a word. French can sound almost metronomic. wink )

Nahum #3135688 07/08/21 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by keystring
I'm actually not comfortable with all of them because of how we emphasize syllables and pronounce words. If you already know how to count correctly, you can bend the words to the rhythms, but if you start with the words, you can get the rhythms wrong.
The only question of comfort is not decisive when learning new things in the game; for example, playing the violin for a beginner is an unnatural thing, and even painful. You can talk about expediency and rationality.

I did not mean that I was literally "uncomfortable", as one may be when learning a new thing. It is a polite way of saying that I'm inclined to disagree; or that I see potential problems (the ones I outlined).

fatar760 #3135690 07/08/21 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by fatar760
The use of words/phrases to remember various musical elements can be useful as a starting point.
As long as the familiar rhythms of those words don't end up teaching a wrong association.

SillyCrab #3135699 07/08/21 11:17 PM
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The food rhythm guide was strictly for fun reinforcement esp. for young beginners. My daughter was taught to count, clap and tap rhythm the usual way. So no worries. Avocado Toast didn’t mess up her rhythm.🥑🍞

SillyCrab #3136040 07/10/21 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by SillyCrab
My daughter was taught to count, clap and tap rhythm the usual way.

So was I.

But I'm not so sure that how I was taught had anything to do with how I learned it.

And certainly being taught "the usual way" has nothing to do with how I'm learning rhythms today after six decades of this.

What this suggests to me is that maybe much of the usual way could just be skipped without any adverse effects.

As a beginner, what did we struggle with? I remember quarter note triplets being a mystery, until suddenly they weren't. A quintuplet still is, but I see one about once every ten years! Today, it's jazz patterns that are too fast to count and must be felt, and aren't played precisely as notated anyway.


gotta go practice
SillyCrab #3136047 07/10/21 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by SillyCrab
The food rhythm guide was strictly for fun reinforcement esp. for young beginners. My daughter was taught to count, clap and tap rhythm the usual way. So no worries. Avocado Toast didn’t mess up her rhythm.🥑🍞
What you are saying is important. She was taught to count, clap and tap, and so did not have to rely on Avocado Toast as her model. One thing reinforced the other. That combination may be a useful thing - "reinforcing".
I was writing as a teacher, wearing that hat, considering the whole thing.

SillyCrab #3137848 07/16/21 01:43 AM
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62 year old beginner piano student here. I count and clap regularly and occasionally use a free app.

I've spent about 30 minutes searching for a simple reference sheet for counting rhythm. Can anyone help me out?

I learned counting in music class about 50 years ago in the USA - with the counting method of 1-e-&-a-2-e-&-a.
My piano teacher teaches using the ta-ti-te-fi counts (is this a french method? Does it have a name?). Plus a few words thrown in here and there (straw-berr-eee).

I'm getting rightly confused.

She has said to use what works. Honestly, I'd like to use the American method because this other method is just escaping me.

What I'm looking for is a chart with both methods - or short of that - individual charts that I can merge myself. I can do the simple rhythms but now we're getting into sixteenth/semi-quavers and 32nd/demi-quavers and I'm totally messed up.

Fingers crossed someone can help me out!


Started lessons January 2020.
SillyCrab #3138004 07/16/21 12:29 PM
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My experience is this (for example):
If I play triplets incorrectly, my teacher will tap the correct rhythm with a pencil and say "ham-bur-ger, ham-bur-ger, ham-ber-ger" etc. and have me clap and say "ham-ber-ger" along with him, and while I play, and so on.

When I practice at home, I remember how he said it and what it sounded like. This helps me play correctly.

The pronunciation is not how either of us sound when ordering food. That would be ridiculous.

For KrisR, just keep practicing and gradually increase the complexity. There are apps where you can enter the rhythm and it will tap for you.


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SillyCrab #3138348 07/17/21 04:03 PM
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I'd suggest avoiding 16ths (semiquavers), until you're comfortable reading 1/4 and 1/8 notes in various combinations.

32nds you will rarely need (in my experience), so don't go there until you're comfortable with the above in different sequences.

Also, remember to add tied rhythms to the equation!

Personally, I've always taught 1 + 2 + etc (counting out loud as you clap/play). Ultimately you want to learn the rhythm patterns well enough so that you're not relying on counting out loud.

SillyCrab #3151342 08/30/21 11:13 AM
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No dotted notes on the chart.
See where it says, Strawberry ice-cream? If you put a dotted note for the first crotchet, how would the rhythm be played or counted? that would help me great, thanks.

Last edited by meaculpa; 08/30/21 11:16 AM.
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