2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
97 members (36251, Ben_NZ, accordeur, AB99, brdwyguy, 16 invisible), 1,284 guests, and 476 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 21
H
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
H
Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 21
My first post here, from Sweden so have patience with the language.

Just bought a Yamaha C3 1977. Did a big mistake by not testing it before buy..a friend looked/played on it and said it was ok.

Visually it is in good condition. But the sound....

I also have an older grand from 1930..not serviced in a looooong time, only tuned. It sounds wonderful.

The Yamaha sounds like you have the treble knob on your home stereo turned all the way down and the tweeters removed from the speakers......no top end at all.

Only bass and very bright mid...it sounds very lo-resolution.

I cant judge by the hammers how much it has been used but the only previous owner was an older couple who had this piano in their home.

The action dont feels worn out in any way.

Would new hammers change the sound much?

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,008
Bronze Subscriber
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
Bronze Subscriber
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,008
How much do you or your friend know about piano technology? You said 'no top end at all' which is not a useful description for anyone here to help. I think you need the services of a professional piano technician to assess both of your pianos.
Ian


I'm all keyed up
2016 Blüthner Model A
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 377
J
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 377
Hammers can make a profound difference in tone. I’m assuming by ‘top end’ you mean the treble end of the piano? If so, it could possibly be the hammers, but not necessarily.

It’s be helpful if you made some recordings for us to hear.

I agree with Beemer that ultimately you’ll want to have a piano technician come out.

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 6,805
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 6,805
Hammers could be ruined, strike point could be wrong, strings could be brittle, soundboard could have too little or too much downbearing, piano could be water damaged…and maybe a couple of other possibilities. It could be one of these things, or a combination of them. I have come across a few older Yamahas where I was surprised by the lack of characteristic crispness/brightness. I think the last one had been intentionally voiced that way by a technician.


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 21
H
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
H
Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 21
Yes its the treble thats missing..my opinion. I have discussed it with some techs in my area. One of them said that Yamahas from this time could be very bright in the mids, so it might be that this isnt a piano for me 😦 but i was expecting more treble from it.


But i have played 2 other Yamahas and both of them have alot more treble than mine.

There is a brand new c3 2 hours away from me in a store but i have read that Yamaha have made changes trough the years on C3 so its maybe not a fair compare.

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 29,996
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 29,996
It probably needs the hammers filed and the action regulated. But diagnosis over the internet is fraught with peril.


Semipro Tech
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 377
J
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 377
Originally Posted by heliac_swe
Yes its the treble thats missing..my opinion. I have discussed it with some techs in my area. One of them said that Yamahas from this time could be very bright in the mids, so it might be that this isnt a piano for me 😦 but i was expecting more treble from it.

Yamaha’s can sound really excellent and balanced, and a lot of that has to do with the technician rather than the piano itself. The ‘brightness’ is most significantly an issue of hammer voicing rather than design. Of course the word ‘brightness’ could mean different things to different people, and there are other aspects which affect how we perceive a piano’s ‘brightness’.

If I were you, I’d find a technician or shop which has Yamaha’s that they’ve specifically worked on and which sound good to you, and ask then to assess your piano. Not all technicians are good at voicing even if they know how to do it.

Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 21
H
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
H
Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 21
I was now away and tested a Yamaha G2 1984 at a friends friend. One owner, standing in the house since it was bought in 85. Nothing has been done trough the years except tuning. Sounded way better than my C3.

Someone must have messed with my hammers to make it sound this dark.

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 846
T
Silver Subscriber
500 Post Club Member
Offline
Silver Subscriber
500 Post Club Member
T
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 846
Voicing is very subjective, meaning people like their piano to sound the way they perceive that it should sound. My guess is that yes, someone wanted the piano to sound very mellow and so it was voiced that way. It might be brightened up by some hammer hardener. I've had good luck with that on many pianos. But you'll want to work with a local tech to figure that out.


"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,367
P
4000 Post Club Member
Online Content
4000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,367
Agreed. Probably a tech was asked to make it mellow ("it's too loud for me"). Also, Yamaha hamnbers tend to lose their "voiceability" after about 25 years. This one is about 45 years old. If it was done in its later years, you practically have to KILL the hammers in order to make any substantive difference. Sometimes they can be "brought back", sometimes not. It depends on what's been done, how much, and the the abilities of the the tech trying to bring it back from the dead. (BTW the design lifespan of a piano is about 30-40 years).

But, as stated several times, you need to develop a relationship with a good tech and get his/her opinion on the matter.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 21
H
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
H
Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 21
A tech is coming soon with a couple of hammers from another C3 that sounds nice (his opinion). He will install them and we will see if it makes any difference. He says its about 35000 SEK (4000 USD) to replace all hammers with new ones.

Last edited by heliac_swe; 07/12/21 07:27 AM.
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,367
P
4000 Post Club Member
Online Content
4000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,367
Sounds like a good idea.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 6,805
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 6,805
Test a few hammers in various locations on the piano before committing to the work, if you can. I was just around a newer Steinway D with a very dead treble, and by swapping a few hammers from a known good D we were able to determine that a new set of hammers wasn’t going to fix anything.

If you don’t notice a very positive change after this test, don’t spend the money, and perhaps consider selling the piano (the market for good used pianos is pretty hot right now) and start over with a piano whose tone you like…and have actually tried first! Just my opinion. smile


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 21
H
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
H
Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 21
Yes, thats exaclty what i want to do. If it "comes" alive when testing other hammers im willing to pay for a replacement. Otherwise i will sell it and find another one with the right tone.

Right now there is a Bluthner 280 cm with the "aliquot" string for free pickup not far away from me. Im going to test it this evening. It might be a find...or a total crash smile

Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,531
G
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,531
Originally Posted by heliac_swe
A tech is coming soon with a couple of hammers from another C3 that sounds nice (his opinion). He will install them and we will see if it makes any difference. He says its about 35000 SEK (4000 USD) to replace all hammers with new ones.


You might also ask your tech to harden one of the hammers as well and see how that plays. I would expect that to be a lot cheaper than replacing them if the revoiced hammer sounds good to you - and if you are going to replace the hammers anyway there is nothing to lose by experimenting.

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,367
P
4000 Post Club Member
Online Content
4000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,367
Reshaping the hammer to proper shape (removal of any string grooves, then diamond shape) and getting rid of "dead" useless felt would be first step (make sure let-off adjustment is correct at 2mm), listen, perhaps pound the crown a little, then finally perhaps some gardener such as b-72 in the shoulders (or a few drops at the crown). Make sure your variables are reduced. Make sure keyframe is solidly bedded to keybed. Make sure hammershank bushings are free, Jack aligned to core, etc.

There are numerous things that can contribute to power loss. Start from the bottom up.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 21
H
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
H
Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 21
About the 1913 Bluthner 280 cm Aliqout...i played it last night. Last tuning was 2009, but it was only 2 notes that was "way out". It sounded amazing, i was stunned. Very calm in the mid with sweet highs and a powerful bass. I experienced the distance from pressing the key til i bottomed pretty short...but it was great to play on anyway.

If i can get some friends for help i think i will pick it up...it was for free. But its a big heavy bastard...

Joined: May 2015
Posts: 8,788
Silver Subscriber
8000 Post Club Member
Offline
Silver Subscriber
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 8,788
Originally Posted by heliac_swe
About the 1913 Bluthner 280 cm Aliqout...i played it last night. Last tuning was 2009, but it was only 2 notes that was "way out". It sounded amazing, i was stunned. Very calm in the mid with sweet highs and a powerful bass. I experienced the distance from pressing the key til i bottomed pretty short...but it was great to play on anyway.

If i can get some friends for help i think i will pick it up...it was for free. But its a big heavy bastard...


Free may be a great deal or it may be a money pit. Be wise and have a tech inspection before you take it home. Last tuned in 2009 is a red flag you should have checked.

If you live in the US or Canada, you can search for a tech at PTG.org


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It's ok to be a Work In Progress
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,367
P
4000 Post Club Member
Online Content
4000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,367
Heliac,

Do you have experience moving pianos? That thing could easily tip 1500 lbs. But potentially it is a superb instrument. (Repeat potentially)

Peter Grey Piano Doctor


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 21
H
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
H
Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 21
Have moved 4 grands with success and 0% damages but never anything in this weight. About 1000 lbs if you take away the loose parts.

I have tools for it, stretcher and a wagon and some big friends.

It will end up in the dump if noone takes it...im considering to pick it up. I can have tech to look when i have it at home. It will cost me almost nothing to bring it home.

Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Playing piano outside?
by Sam S - 09/27/21 06:21 PM
7/8 Piano in European Market?
by Mohrpiano - 09/27/21 04:23 PM
Fine uprights overdamper actions
by tre corda - 09/27/21 04:13 PM
Internal pulse/beat/rhythm
by PatG - 09/27/21 03:26 PM
Avantgrand N3X vs Kawai Novus 10S
by PianoComposer - 09/27/21 12:58 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
What's Hot!!
My first professionally recorded piece
---------------------
Our Free Newsletter for Piano Lovers!
The summer edition of our free newsletter
---------------------
Visit Maine, Meet Mr. Piano World
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics209,324
Posts3,135,622
Members102,840
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5