Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Yamaha C3 ”lo-fi” sound

My first post here, from Sweden so have patience with the language.

Just bought a Yamaha C3 1977. Did a big mistake by not testing it before buy..a friend looked/played on it and said it was ok.

Visually it is in good condition. But the sound....

I also have an older grand from 1930..not serviced in a looooong time, only tuned. It sounds wonderful.

The Yamaha sounds like you have the treble knob on your home stereo turned all the way down and the tweeters removed from the speakers......no top end at all.

Only bass and very bright mid...it sounds very lo-resolution.

I cant judge by the hammers how much it has been used but the only previous owner was an older couple who had this piano in their home.

The action dont feels worn out in any way.

Would new hammers change the sound much?

How much do you or your friend know about piano technology? You said 'no top end at all' which is not a useful description for anyone here to help. I think you need the services of a professional piano technician to assess both of your pianos.
Ian

Hammers can make a profound difference in tone. I’m assuming by ‘top end’ you mean the treble end of the piano? If so, it could possibly be the hammers, but not necessarily.

It’s be helpful if you made some recordings for us to hear.

I agree with Beemer that ultimately you’ll want to have a piano technician come out.

Hammers could be ruined, strike point could be wrong, strings could be brittle, soundboard could have too little or too much downbearing, piano could be water damaged…and maybe a couple of other possibilities. It could be one of these things, or a combination of them. I have come across a few older Yamahas where I was surprised by the lack of characteristic crispness/brightness. I think the last one had been intentionally voiced that way by a technician.

Yes its the treble thats missing..my opinion. I have discussed it with some techs in my area. One of them said that Yamahas from this time could be very bright in the mids, so it might be that this isnt a piano for me 😦 but i was expecting more treble from it.


But i have played 2 other Yamahas and both of them have alot more treble than mine.

There is a brand new c3 2 hours away from me in a store but i have read that Yamaha have made changes trough the years on C3 so its maybe not a fair compare.

It probably needs the hammers filed and the action regulated. But diagnosis over the internet is fraught with peril.

Yamaha’s can sound really excellent and balanced, and a lot of that has to do with the technician rather than the piano itself. The ‘brightness’ is most significantly an issue of hammer voicing rather than design. Of course the word ‘brightness’ could mean different things to different people, and there are other aspects which affect how we perceive a piano’s ‘brightness’.

If I were you, I’d find a technician or shop which has Yamaha’s that they’ve specifically worked on and which sound good to you, and ask then to assess your piano. Not all technicians are good at voicing even if they know how to do it.

I was now away and tested a Yamaha G2 1984 at a friends friend. One owner, standing in the house since it was bought in 85. Nothing has been done trough the years except tuning. Sounded way better than my C3.

Someone must have messed with my hammers to make it sound this dark.

Voicing is very subjective, meaning people like their piano to sound the way they perceive that it should sound. My guess is that yes, someone wanted the piano to sound very mellow and so it was voiced that way. It might be brightened up by some hammer hardener. I've had good luck with that on many pianos. But you'll want to work with a local tech to figure that out.

Agreed. Probably a tech was asked to make it mellow ("it's too loud for me"). Also, Yamaha hamnbers tend to lose their "voiceability" after about 25 years. This one is about 45 years old. If it was done in its later years, you practically have to KILL the hammers in order to make any substantive difference. Sometimes they can be "brought back", sometimes not. It depends on what's been done, how much, and the the abilities of the the tech trying to bring it back from the dead. (BTW the design lifespan of a piano is about 30-40 years).

But, as stated several times, you need to develop a relationship with a good tech and get his/her opinion on the matter.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

A tech is coming soon with a couple of hammers from another C3 that sounds nice (his opinion). He will install them and we will see if it makes any difference. He says its about 35000 SEK (4000 USD) to replace all hammers with new ones.

Sounds like a good idea.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

Test a few hammers in various locations on the piano before committing to the work, if you can. I was just around a newer Steinway D with a very dead treble, and by swapping a few hammers from a known good D we were able to determine that a new set of hammers wasn’t going to fix anything.

If you don’t notice a very positive change after this test, don’t spend the money, and perhaps consider selling the piano (the market for good used pianos is pretty hot right now) and start over with a piano whose tone you like…and have actually tried first! Just my opinion.

Yes, thats exaclty what i want to do. If it "comes" alive when testing other hammers im willing to pay for a replacement. Otherwise i will sell it and find another one with the right tone.

Right now there is a Bluthner 280 cm with the "aliquot" string for free pickup not far away from me. Im going to test it this evening. It might be a find...or a total crash

You might also ask your tech to harden one of the hammers as well and see how that plays. I would expect that to be a lot cheaper than replacing them if the revoiced hammer sounds good to you - and if you are going to replace the hammers anyway there is nothing to lose by experimenting.

Reshaping the hammer to proper shape (removal of any string grooves, then diamond shape) and getting rid of "dead" useless felt would be first step (make sure let-off adjustment is correct at 2mm), listen, perhaps pound the crown a little, then finally perhaps some gardener such as b-72 in the shoulders (or a few drops at the crown). Make sure your variables are reduced. Make sure keyframe is solidly bedded to keybed. Make sure hammershank bushings are free, Jack aligned to core, etc.

There are numerous things that can contribute to power loss. Start from the bottom up.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

About the 1913 Bluthner 280 cm Aliqout...i played it last night. Last tuning was 2009, but it was only 2 notes that was "way out". It sounded amazing, i was stunned. Very calm in the mid with sweet highs and a powerful bass. I experienced the distance from pressing the key til i bottomed pretty short...but it was great to play on anyway.

If i can get some friends for help i think i will pick it up...it was for free. But its a big heavy bastard...

Free may be a great deal or it may be a money pit. Be wise and have a tech inspection before you take it home. Last tuned in 2009 is a red flag you should have checked.

If you live in the US or Canada, you can search for a tech at PTG.org

Heliac,

Do you have experience moving pianos? That thing could easily tip 1500 lbs. But potentially it is a superb instrument. (Repeat potentially)

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

Have moved 4 grands with success and 0% damages but never anything in this weight. About 1000 lbs if you take away the loose parts.

I have tools for it, stretcher and a wagon and some big friends.

It will end up in the dump if noone takes it...im considering to pick it up. I can have tech to look when i have it at home. It will cost me almost nothing to bring it home.