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When I look at lead sheets of today's pop I notice vocal melodies are often quite complex. Are vocal melodies usually complex regardless of when they were written or does it just vary?

Last edited by Sebs; 07/14/21 08:49 PM.
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Originally Posted by Sebs
When I look at lead sheets of today's pop I notice vocal melodies are often quite complex. Are vocal melodies usually complex regardless of when they were written or does it just vary?

lead sheets of today's pop

Can you give an example? Are the songs # 1 and # 2 from here difficult -


?

What exactly is difficult: melody, harmony, rhythm or rhythm reading from notes?

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For me I mean it playing RH the rhythms even with simple LH harmony. Such as there are a lot of sixteenth notes, dotted sixteenth notes, ties, in the vocal melody. For example, I played unchained melody it was far simpler in terms of vocal rhythm. Then say I want to do piano solo of Olivia Rodrigo, I go look at this lead sheet and I'm like nope, no way. I understand that signers don't write vocal melodies with intention to be played on piano but I was just wondering are most vocal melodies in modern pop that complex? I know there are some that are not as complex but not many.

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Originally Posted by Sebs
For me I mean it playing RH the rhythms even with simple LH harmony. Such as there are a lot of sixteenth notes, dotted sixteenth notes, ties, in the vocal melody. For example, I played unchained melody it was far simpler in terms of vocal rhythm. Then say I want to do piano solo of Olivia Rodrigo, I go look at this lead sheet and I'm like nope, no way. I understand that signers don't write vocal melodies with intention to be played on piano but I was just wondering are most vocal melodies in modern pop that complex? I know there are some that are not as complex but not many.


It is a very simple melody with a very simple harmony. As far as pop melodic rhythms is concerned, I face this problem in class all the time, and there is a very simple solution for this: you learn the lyrics in accordance with the exact phrasing of the clip by ear. I'm not sure if you're going to be a studio musician; so use this patent without remorse!

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There are two contributions I'd like to make:

1) I think it's extremely rare that a melody is written for a singer these days. There is perhaps a loose idea which the singer will play about with and, from that, sheet music is eventually written and published. In other words the song influences what we read and not the other way around.

2) You're absolutely right about the increase in semiquaver rhythms in pop music. I think a lot of this stems from Speech Quality and the influence of rap and hip-hop in modern music. I think many melodies have also got higher - particularly in the male range, where a thinner/cry sound is much preferred to a heavy/thick sound.

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I think African American gospel singing, hip hop and rap have had an expanding influence on pop singing over the years and thus we get more syncopated melodies. I’ve noticed that generally the rhythms of the white’s pop music were simpler.


Technical Editor of Mark Levine's The Jazz Theory Book and helped develop The Jazz Piano Book. Studied with: Mark Levine & Mark Isham (1981-1990); Barry Harris (1993-2000)
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Originally Posted by Nahum
It is a very simple melody with a very simple harmony. As far as pop melodic rhythms is concerned, I face this problem in class all the time, and there is a very simple solution for this: you learn the lyrics in accordance with the exact phrasing of the clip by ear. I'm not sure if you're going to be a studio musician; so use this patent without remorse!

Excellent advice!


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Originally Posted by RinTin
Originally Posted by Nahum
It is a very simple melody with a very simple harmony. As far as pop melodic rhythms is concerned, I face this problem in class all the time, and there is a very simple solution for this: you learn the lyrics in accordance with the exact phrasing of the clip by ear. I'm not sure if you're going to be a studio musician; so use this patent without remorse!

Excellent advice!
Basically, I propose to study the rhythmic side of pop songs seriously and thoroughly, and this will remain forever. For this song: extract the rhythmic patterns (they all repeat) and learn their prosody.

[Linked Image]


Consonants define the boundaries of notes. Internal subdivision into sixteenths.

The work involved pays off in hundreds of other songs.

Halo

See You Again

Last edited by Nahum; 07/18/21 04:54 AM.
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Another great post, Nahum. I think the practice if subdivision is the key to rhythmic mastery and good time keeping.


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Originally Posted by RinTin
I think the practice if subdivision is the key to rhythmic mastery and good time keeping.
By the way, about the training method.

Work on each pattern separately:

1. Learn the exact sequence of syllables - no metronome.
2. Tune the metronome to 69 BPM. Each beat (in this case) is equal to one eighth or two sixteenths. However, in the case of the bossa nova, the same patterns are based on quarters and eighths.
3. Practice the pronunciation of each pattern out loud 8 times.
4. Add claps to the metronome, combining with pronunciation - 5 times.
5. Combine pronunciation and piano playing. Strictly observe the coordination of the beginning and end of each note and each pause - 20 times.
6. The same, transferring the pronunciation inward.
7. Gradually change the speed of the metronome.
8. Tie in a chain all patterns, no earlier than each of them will be thoroughly learned. Insufficiently learned patterns tend to be distorted by the previous.
9.Tune the metronome to 55 BPM. Each beat is equal to one fourth or two eighths , or four sixteenths.

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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by RinTin
I think the practice if subdivision is the key to rhythmic mastery and good time keeping.
By the way, about the training method.

Work on each pattern separately:

1. Learn the exact sequence of syllables - no metronome.
2. Tune the metronome to 69 BPM. Each beat (in this case) is equal to one eighth or two sixteenths. However, in the case of the bossa nova, the same patterns are based on quarters and eighths.
3. Practice the pronunciation of each pattern out loud 8 times.
4. Add claps to the metronome, combining with pronunciation - 5 times.
5. Combine pronunciation and piano playing. Strictly observe the coordination of the beginning and end of each note and each pause - 20 times.
6. The same, transferring the pronunciation inward.
7. Gradually change the speed of the metronome.
8. Tie in a chain all patterns, no earlier than each of them will be thoroughly learned. Insufficiently learned patterns tend to be distorted by the previous.
9.Tune the metronome to 55 BPM. Each beat is equal to one fourth or two eighths , or four sixteenths.

Do you suggest using the syllable system you display or do I use the actual lyrics? Is step one saying to learn the words and rhythms and don't even bother to play on the piano until step 5?

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Originally Posted by Sebs
Do you suggest using the syllable system you display
Yes.

Quote
Is step one saying to learn the words and rhythms and don't even bother to play on the piano until step 5?
Yes. This is exactly what I did today in a lesson with a 73 year old student who is learning Bartok's Romanian Dance # 4; where he got confused from the start between triplet, dotted rhythm and four sixteenths. 20 minutes - and we solved a problem that he could not cope with on his own.

Last edited by Nahum; 07/19/21 12:44 PM.
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Where are those syllables from?


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Originally Posted by RinTin
Where are those syllables from?
Combination extract from various sources: Takadimi, jazz scat by Bob Stoloff version , saxophone articulation techniques, my finds for playing melodica -with help of Stoloff .Each syllable has a specific rhythmic unit, a specific articulation and a specific ending. This is not simple one-and-two-and or tatata-lalalala.

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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by RinTin
Where are those syllables from?
Combination extract from various sources: Takadimi, jazz scat by Bob Stoloff version , saxophone articulation techniques, my finds for playing melodica -with help of Stoloff .Each syllable has a specific rhythmic unit, a specific articulation and a specific ending. This is not simple one-and-two-and or tatata-lalalala.

Is the benefit that these syllables directly translate to an exact sub division? For example, if I were to use the lyrics I could still be sub-dividing incorrectly? Then after you use the Takadimi then you add in actual lyrics?

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Originally Posted by Sebs
Is the benefit that these syllables directly translate to an exact sub division? For example, if I were to use the lyrics I could still be sub-dividing incorrectly?

Try to determine the rhythm of a melody by rhythm of the lyrics:

whether you're a brother or whether
you're a mother ,you're
stayin' alive , stayin'
alive . Feel the
city breakin' and everybody
shakin' ,people , stayin'
alive , stayin'
alive .

compared with

Takatahu tikititu akataka tikititu akatitu ahu n'n'
takatitu ahu n'n'
Takataka tikititu akataka tikititu akatitu ahu n'n'
takatitu ahu n'n'


Quote
Then after you use the Takadimi then you add in actual lyrics?

"Takadimi" - to play the instrumental version from the sheet music, bypassing the lyrics. This is in the case of a new song that you have never heard , or playing in an ensemble with an accurate arrangement. By learning the lyrics from the original recording, you will memorize the rhythm for a lifetime.

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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by Sebs
Is the benefit that these syllables directly translate to an exact sub division? For example, if I were to use the lyrics I could still be sub-dividing incorrectly?

Try to determine the rhythm of a melody by rhythm of the lyrics:

whether you're a brother or whether
you're a mother ,you're
stayin' alive , stayin'
alive . Feel the
city breakin' and everybody
shakin' ,people , stayin'
alive , stayin'
alive .

compared with

Takatahu tikititu akataka tikititu akatitu ahu n'n'
takatitu ahu n'n'
Takataka tikititu akataka tikititu akatitu ahu n'n'
takatitu ahu n'n'


Quote
Then after you use the Takadimi then you add in actual lyrics?

"Takadimi" - to play the instrumental version from the sheet music, bypassing the lyrics. This is in the case of a new song that you have never heard , or playing in an ensemble with an accurate arrangement. By learning the lyrics from the original recording, you will memorize the rhythm for a lifetime.

I couldn't get the SNF rhythm from the 'Taka' syllables you provided. I find it incredibly confusing.

Although I understand the premise, surely just learning to recognise rhythmic patterns is better in the long term. Yes, we can use 'word-hooks' to work out something we're not sure on - but there's also other methods to do this too, such as doubling note values and clapping through more recognisable rhythms until we know how they sound.

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Originally Posted by fatar760
I couldn't get the SNF rhythm... I find it incredibly confusing...
Although I understand the premise, surely just learning to recognise rhythmic patterns is better in the long term.
Excuse me, what is SNF rhythm?

As for the rhythm of pronunciation, what is confusing you here?

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Do not try to study everything at once from the beginning to the end, but according to the African principle: riff number 1, riff number 2, etc.


Neither you nor I can promise anyone a lightning-fast process of learning to read notes and rhythm; however, after creating a dictionary of rhythm patterns, my approach just saves time compared to regular counting and the like. Checked on the watch.
Anyway, in my rhythm course, a group of students passed the exam at the end of the first semester by sight-reading rhythm exercises.

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Originally Posted by fatar760
Although I understand the premise, surely just learning to recognise rhythmic patterns is better in the long term. Yes, we can use 'word-hooks' to work out something we're not sure on - but there's also other methods to do this too, such as doubling note values and clapping through more recognisable rhythms until we know how they sound.

Exactly. Pop musicians (professional or aspiring) will take the most efficient path to get to grips. There's no point in adding an additional layer to the learning process.

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Originally Posted by dire tonic
Exactly. Pop musicians (professional or aspiring) will take the most efficient path to get to grips. There's no point in adding an additional layer to the learning process.
Even before Pop pianist (professional or aspiring) will take the most efficient path to get to grips, I highly recommend visit drum and rhythm guitar lesson - it can save time searching in the efficient fog. https://www.drumchat.com/showthread...74047a1774d5a25135&p=88978#post88978

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Originally Posted by Nahum
[quote=dire tonic]

Exactly. Pop musicians (professional or aspiring) will take the most efficient path to get to grips. There's no point in adding an additional layer to the learning process.

Even before Pop pianist (professional or aspiring) will take the most efficient path to get to grips, I highly recommend visit drum and rhythm guitar lesson - it can save time searching in the efficient fog. https://www.drumchat.com/showthread...74047a1774d5a25135&p=88978#post88978

If you can say it, you can play it!

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I still don't understand why using TA KA TI etc. is better than saying the actual lyrics? I understand this is a well know method and many use it I'm only curious the benefit. I could see it being useful learning rhythm where there are no lyrics but for my case you would still use this method to learn vocal melody?

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Originally Posted by Nahum
Excuse me, what is SNF rhythm?

As for the rhythm of pronunciation, what is confusing you here?

[Linked Image]
Do not try to study everything at once from the beginning to the end, but according to the African principle: riff number 1, riff number 2, etc.

Neither you nor I can promise anyone a lightning-fast process of learning to read notes and rhythm; however, after creating a dictionary of rhythm patterns, my approach just saves time compared to regular counting and the like. Checked on the watch.
Anyway, in my rhythm course, a group of students passed the exam at the end of the first semester by sight-reading rhythm exercises.

SNF = Saturday Night Fever (the film/show you chose the song 'Staying Alive' from)

It is the pronunciation itself that I find confusing - in fact, it's getting in the way of me reading the rhythm in that I'm spending longer working out how to pronounce the syllables than just clapping the rhythm.

Whilst it's great you've had some success with students using this approach, it's equally important to acknowledge that not one size fits all. As teachers it's crucial we have a range of ploys up our sleeves so that we find the most suitable one for the person(s) we're teaching.


Originally Posted by dire tonic
There's no point in adding an additional layer to the learning process.

Yeah, I agree.


Originally Posted by Sebs
I still don't understand why using TA KA TI etc. is better than saying the actual lyrics? I understand this is a well know method and many use it I'm only curious the benefit. I could see it being useful learning rhythm where there are no lyrics but for my case you would still use this method to learn vocal melody?

Sebs, I think if you're able to accurately work out and clap a rhythm you're struggling with, within a structure (say with a metronome or someone else keeping time) then you should absolutely add the original lyrics after this is learnt. Why? Because this is the way you're going to play/perform it.

Take the SNF song. Which is easier? Learning how to pronounce all the Takas etc. and THEN learning how the lyrics fit with that or just learning the rhythm of the lyrics in the first place?

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Originally Posted by Sebs
I still don't understand why using TA KA TI etc. is better than saying the actual lyrics? I understand this is a well know method and many use it I'm only curious the benefit. I could see it being useful learning rhythm where there are no lyrics but for my case you would still use this method to learn vocal melody?
Here's a specific situation:
Richard Tee - My Sweetness
https://kupdf.net/download/piano-richard-tee-keyboard techniquepdf_59abc493dc0d604f49568edc_pdf
p. 67 from B.
No lyrics and, say, no internet along with YouTube. What to do?

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Here's what Australian educator Tim Topham advises in regards to studying pop music:

https://topmusic.co/how-to-teach-pop-songs-in-6-simple-steps/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=How+to+teach+pop+in+6+simple+steps+%28correct+link%29&utm_campaign=%5BWeekly+News%5D+July+21+correction&vgo_ee=afkLNuzMXK52W2yv%2FuBBihAU9yBt7G2IlFz6W1kYcR8cFJ0Z5ZsIrgiCZHfQOxdw

On my own behalf, I will add that in the near future, printed sheet music of pop music will consist of lyrics with inscribed chords and links from YouTube. In fact, a student who is poor at reading notes, especially rhythm, does not need anything else.
This will be the ultimate stage between splitting of the academic learning process into the study of music and the study of the notes of music.

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Hi

That Richard Tee book is a find Nahum - many thanks. I've searched for a transcription book for years and never even managed to even find proof one existed! Interestingly Richard Tee did sing and he played funky drums as well.

Sebs - if you're not familiar with Richard Tee, he was one of the top session Pianists until his death in the 90s. He played on hundreds of sessions, in many genres (Pop/Soul/Jazz/R&B) and had a unique style, which fused his early classical training with a heavy Gospel influence. The transcriptions that Nahum has found are very high level. You'll need to be a good reader to play these fluently, and have a feel for his style. Well worth downloading, but not easy - in fact very difficult indeed.

Cheers


Simon

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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by Sebs
I still don't understand why using TA KA TI etc. is better than saying the actual lyrics? I understand this is a well know method and many use it I'm only curious the benefit. I could see it being useful learning rhythm where there are no lyrics but for my case you would still use this method to learn vocal melody?
Here's a specific situation:
Richard Tee - My Sweetness
https://kupdf.net/download/piano-richard-tee-keyboard techniquepdf_59abc493dc0d604f49568edc_pdf
p. 67 from B.
No lyrics and, say, no internet along with YouTube. What to do?

I would clap it whilst keeping a steady pulse. If I had struggled with any of the rhythms (which I didn't in this example), then I'd isolate those parts and work them out. Mostly I'm looking for how the beats are grouped and then the rhythms within in beat.

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Originally Posted by fatar760
I would clap it whilst keeping a steady pulse. If I had struggled with any of the rhythms (which I didn't in this example), then I'd isolate those parts and work them out. Mostly I'm looking for how the beats are grouped and then the rhythms within in beat.
Let me remind that each next pattern tends to distort after the previous one; and trying to initially play full line is a superfluous ​waste of time .

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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by fatar760
I would clap it whilst keeping a steady pulse. If I had struggled with any of the rhythms (which I didn't in this example), then I'd isolate those parts and work them out. Mostly I'm looking for how the beats are grouped and then the rhythms within in beat.
Let me remind that each next pattern tends to distort after the previous one; and trying to initially play full line is a superfluous ​waste of time .

Can you explain why playing the full line is a superfluous waste of time? Surely it's a good thing that one can play what's written...

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Originally Posted by fatar760
Can you explain why playing the full line is a superfluous waste of time? Surely it's a good thing that one can play what's written...

Hope I used the right words. Classical pianists understand this to a lesser extent. Anyone who studies the classical repertoire imperceptibly absorbs the rule of composition of that period: everything that reflects the typical character of a piece: texture, tempo, register, rhythmic figures, etc. must remain stable before they change. The dynamics of the chunks gradually evolve from lasting stability to more rapid changes reflecting tension and instability.
For example, you played the 1st movement of Dussek's sonatina op.19. Each rhythmic pattern lasts a whole bar, and the first unexpected change occurs in bar 4 - in accordance with the aforementioned principle: stability and development dynamics. For the 4th bar, we can say that it contains 2 patterns. It is very convenient to read notes for eyesight.
There has been a period in the history of pop music when it was just as easy to read the sheet music of songs, especially ballads; for example, Moon River with its calm rhythm:
Moon River
Again, the rhythmic patterns are spread over two bars. In such conditions, the distorting effect of the previous pattern is weak, if at all.
Since the beginning of the 60s, rhythmic figures from drums and rhythm of guitars began to invade the vocal melodies of songs (in fact, earlier, with the appearance of rhythm and blues in the African American community in the 40s, but notes were not published).

When I started working with piano students who were studying classical piano on the Beatles' scores, the fundamental problems of reading the rhythm of the songs immediately emerged. It is this ubiquitous phenomenon that was noticed in the 80s. and became the reason for the development of the rhythmic language of Takadimi - by the way, at the same time with my lessons in the 90s.
The fact is that, in relation to classical music, there was an acceleration in pop music: patterns began to change every half of the bar, and later - every quarter; and all this is copiously filled with syncopation.
In classical music, each phrase is worked on separately, which includes dynamics, rhythm, etc. The phrase can be 4 or 2 bars. In modern pop music, to study rhythm, it is very often necessary to disassemble the music into separate quarters. Otherwise, in the absence of experience in reading pop music from sheet music, you "get stuck" on the second pattern.

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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by fatar760
Can you explain why playing the full line is a superfluous waste of time? Surely it's a good thing that one can play what's written...


Hope I used the right words. Classical pianists understand this to a lesser extent. Anyone who studies the classical repertoire imperceptibly absorbs the rule of composition of that period: everything that reflects the typical character of a piece: texture, tempo, register, rhythmic figures, etc. must remain stable before they change. The dynamics of the chunks gradually evolve from lasting stability to more rapid changes reflecting tension and instability.
For example, you played the 1st movement of Dussek's sonatina op.19. Each rhythmic pattern lasts a whole bar, and the first unexpected change occurs in bar 4 - in accordance with the aforementioned principle: stability and development dynamics. For the 4th bar, we can say that it contains 2 patterns. It is very convenient to read notes for eyesight.
There has been a period in the history of pop music when it was just as easy to read the sheet music of songs, especially ballads; for example, Moon River with its calm rhythm:
Moon River
Again, the rhythmic patterns are spread over two bars. In such conditions, the distorting effect of the previous pattern is weak, if at all.
Since the beginning of the 60s, rhythmic figures from drums and rhythm of guitars began to invade the vocal melodies of songs (in fact, earlier, with the appearance of rhythm and blues in the African American community in the 40s, but notes were not published).

When I started working with piano students who were studying classical piano on the Beatles' scores, the fundamental problems of reading the rhythm of the songs immediately emerged. It is this ubiquitous phenomenon that was noticed in the 80s. and became the reason for the development of the rhythmic language of Takadimi - by the way, at the same time with my lessons in the 90s.
The fact is that, in relation to classical music, there was an acceleration in pop music: patterns began to change every half of the bar, and later - every quarter; and all this is copiously filled with syncopation.
In classical music, each phrase is worked on separately, which includes dynamics, rhythm, etc. The phrase can be 4 or 2 bars. In modern pop music, to study rhythm, it is very often necessary to disassemble the music into separate quarters. Otherwise, in the absence of experience in reading pop music from sheet music, you "get stuck" on the second pattern.

Hi Nahum,

Thanks for your reply.

No, I think you've misused the word 'superfluous' there, but not to worry, I understand what you're trying to say.

Of course, it's not just classical pianists that absorb a composer's traits. I can think of many Jazz/MT/Pop composers that are also quite identifiable in their writing style, and through playing, one learns what to expect when tackling one of their pieces. R+H or Cole Porter instantly spring to mind.

I feel your description of the history of pop music is over-simplistic and lacks nuance. For every Moon River I could point you to a host of Jazz and Blues standards littered with varying syncopated rhythms deriving from the 30s, 40s, 50s etc., the very subject of this thread. It certainly wasn't a shift just seen in 80s. In fact, rhythmic patterns can vary in any style/genre of music irrespective of the number of bars. I say this as someone who has a BMus in Jazz, Pop and Commercial Music and has studied the history of popular music.

With regards to current pop music you still get repeated rhythmic patterns and, once learnt, is no different to any other form of rhythm learning. I take by 'modern' you're referring to music of the last 50/60 years though, right?, as rhythmically a song sung by Justin Timberlake has the same kind of patterns that you'll hear in a Stevie Wonder, or Motown, song from the 60s and 70s. What has changed are the vocal qualities being applied to the genre - which has heightened the sense of identity and individuality in the music - but even that's been going on for decades too.

Like I said previously, there are a number of ways of working out uncertain rhythms. If Takadimi works for you then that's great mate. It won't work for all students though, and it's important to find a variety in methods so that you can be a flexible teacher who caters to the student's needs.

One rhythm book that I was recommended whilst studying (and still use) is Louis Bellson's Modern Reading Text in 4/4:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B004NBXMHK/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

Well worth checking out!

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Originally Posted by fatar760
One rhythm book that I was recommended whilst studying (and still use) is Louis Bellson's Modern Reading Text in 4/4:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B004NBXMHK/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

Well worth checking out!

I have had it for many years. It is written very cleverly: at first it slaps at a slow pace, and then the rhythmic figures become clear. But that's not all - while gradually accelerating, super patterns are suddenly discovered that spread over several bars. A very sophisticated drummer. However, it was precisely in this book that I understood the problematic nature of reading the rhythm recorded in the form of a series of attacks — that which claps produce; therefore there is no difference between fourth, eighth, sixteenth and syncopation. This is the thinking of a drummer, and I played the violin and saxophone, where rhythmic thinking goes through the duration of breathing, that is, prosody.
10 years later in Israel, my former colleague Roni Holan published a collection of similar exercises related to the more modern rhythms of pop, rock and fusion music Rhythm For All , which has the same problem: the rhythm is like a series of attacks with pauses in between . [Linked Image]

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Originally Posted by fatar760
I feel your description of the history of pop music is over-simplistic and lacks nuance. For every Moon River I could point you to a host of Jazz and Blues standards littered with varying syncopated rhythms deriving from the 30s, 40s, 50s etc., the very subject of this thread.
Yes, I made some exaggeration, but ... Ask those who studied classical piano in the 50s and 60s if they had printed sheet music for the music you mentioned, and did they work with the teacher on these songs during the lesson? I doubt it. During my studies in period of Soviet Union, such a request would undoubtedly have caused a worldwide scandal. At the same time, we all listened to Western European radio stations, and we played our memorized hits by ear.

Quote
It certainly wasn't a shift just seen in 80s
.

Strongly disagree! You have completely forgotten the revolution in the music mass media, which was made by MTV channel . The number of kids who wanted to play "Billie Jean" by Michael Jackson was many times more than those who wanted to play "Night and Day" by Cole Porter - different times! The impact of TV is many times stronger than radio; but have you watched MTV a lot yourself?

It is worth paying attention to the 5th paragraph of Takadimi's declared goals:

5. It should address rhythmic issues presented by musics
outside the realm of traditional tonal literature such as
asymmetric meters, modulation of meter or tempo, complex
syncopations, complex tuplet groupings, and passages that
combine these in novel and challenging ways.
( Takadimi: A Beat-Oriented System of
Rhythm Pedagogy
)

Quote
there are a number of ways of working out uncertain rhythms. If Takadimi works for you then that's great mate. It won't work for all students though,
Sorry, I don't accept that! The study of Takadimi is based on the basic skills of every normal person: sense of rhythm, breathing, pronunciation, memory for a small number of syllables; and in the end - bringing into coordination prosody and the movement of hands and fingers on the keyboard; which is much simpler than playing a piece, with different parts for each hand.
But if someone wants to scratch his right ear behind with his left hand, then who can forbid him?

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Nahum
Maybe you shouldn’t be so dismissive of other approaches. I learned to count rhythm long before takadimi and don’t find any reason to change from something that works perfectly well for me. Your disparaging comment about scratching an ear is not convincing and is an inappropriate slam in a forum meant for discussion and not dogmatic comments.

And BTW: I didn’t take pop music to my classical lessons —- but I didn’t need to as I was capable of working on them without support. If I would have needed my teacher, there would have been no problem with bringing my questions to my lessons.

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latin and japanese pop often have complicated rhythms with japanese pop being less syncopated than latin pop. "ELVIS CRESPO - tu sonrisa" and "PERFUME - polyrhythm" are key examples of the rhythms common in each of the afforementiones countries music, i think greek pop tends to be more rhythmically interesting too.


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Nahum, what has been your own involvement, over the years, in pop music? Were you, for example, in any pop bands? Have you spent any time professionally as a pop musician?

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Originally Posted by Nahum
Sorry, I don't accept that! The study of Takadimi is based on the basic skills of every normal person: sense of rhythm, breathing, pronunciation, memory for a small number of syllables; and in the end - bringing into coordination prosody and the movement of hands and fingers on the keyboard; which is much simpler than playing a piece, with different parts for each hand.

The study of conventional written music, including rhythm, is also approachable by any normal person.

Quote
But if someone wants to scratch his right ear behind with his left hand, then who can forbid him?

Yet you are advocating deploying both hands in the act of scratching one ear. What is the point of that?

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Originally Posted by dogperson
Nahum
Maybe you shouldn’t be so dismissive of other approaches.
Since " other approaches" not specifically mentioned , I assume that this is about counting; and I really do neglect it - which I have mentioned many times. The reason was also mentioned a lot: the counting of the rhythm is not a rhythmic language , even in English.
At the same time, I am respectful to other existing rhythmic languages , although not all of them are suitable by the sound to jazz and pop music. I'm not sure that the majority of piano teachers have a similar attitude towards rhythmic languages, but maybe I'm wrong.

Quote
I learned to count rhythm long before takadimi and don’t find any reason to change from something that works perfectly well for me.
My situation is exactly the same, and in addition I played in symphony and chamber orchestras, where I had to read a lot of music from sight. Trust me: in 49 years of teaching, I have only had one student with such a background; who is studying right now. My teaching experience has clearly shown that what was good in 1958 does not meet modern rhythmic requirements - of course, in the community where I was educated. My pedagogical approach is not to lengthen the duration of the study of rhythm, but save it as much as possible. .

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Originally Posted by dire tonic
The study of conventional written music, including rhythm, is also approachable by any normal person.


This is not at all about this; the focus is on how much time the student spends learning new types of rhythmic melodies using Takadimi or another rhythmic language versus using regular counting. When rhythmic patterns are learned , they are recognized in other songs, and the study time is reduced even more.
To refute, it is necessary, of course, start with the same.

Originally Posted by dire tonic
Nahum, what has been your own involvement, over the years, in pop music? Were you, for example, in any pop bands? Have you spent any time professionally as a pop musician?
There is a lot to tell; suffice it to mention that before moving to Israel, I played almost only pop in restaurant and club bands; the truth is, I did it more instinctively. When I started playing in Platina fusion group, there was also Alona Tourel, a professional pop pianist, most in demand in recording studios, with experience in New York. Playing with her, it was easy to learn what she was doing.
Also, for 10 years I was a companion in a pop-only wedding band; and within this framework I transcribed a lot of music from the recordings quite accurately, including the piano and keyboards. The best school: transcription in the morning, playing in the evening.
But no - I don't have any degree in pop music or even jazz; maybe that's why I worked at the jazz department of the Jerusalem Academy for 33 years - until my retirement.

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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by dire tonic
Nahum, what has been your own involvement, over the years, in pop music? Were you, for example, in any pop bands? Have you spent any time professionally as a pop musician?
There is a lot to tell; suffice it to mention that before moving to Israel, I played almost only pop in restaurant and club bands; the truth is, I did it more instinctively. When I started playing in Platina fusion group, there was also Alona Tourel, a professional pop pianist, most in demand in recording studios, with experience in New York. Playing with her, it was easy to learn what she was doing.
Also, for 10 years I was a companion in a pop-only wedding band; and within this framework I transcribed a lot of music from the recordings quite accurately, including the piano and keyboards. The best school: transcription in the morning, playing in the evening.

The best school? It depends what you're trying to learn. Having a good ear, being able to transcribe, can be a useful starting point - and decidedly useful for party gigs, weddings and the like, but if you have no real affinity or love of the music you're transcribing then it's a somewhat passive means of earning a living. I spent most of my time in the studio but I'd occasionally pick up a party gig playing a mixture of pop and requests. Drummers and bass players were the most clued in on then-current trends in pop but relatively few side players were enthusiastic, finding the hits musically 'too simple'.

For pop, the better school is in the creation of the music itself, understanding its tropes through the means of production in the recording studio (which, for most pop, is where it all happens!) where engineers, producers, artists and the musicians who are specialists in their field will all meet.

I don't know if you're aware of the Discogs database. It's the largest index of popular music with considerable detail on production and label credits. I traced you via Platina and found some recorded albums against your name, some Jazz and some vocal easy listening. You mention Alona Turel who has two listings but no pop to speak of. And while on the subject of Discogs, you've summarised your CV, here's mine.

The risk of being dogmatic was raised earlier. I want to stress how important it is to keep flexible in one's way of thinking, to be as open as possible to the widest variety of advice we offer. Modern solo pop piano is a pursuit in its infancy without even competing templates for study. While we may be able to offer constructive suggestions, no one can honestly put forward definitive answers to beginners' questions. We shouldn't pretend we can.

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Originally Posted by dire tonic
The best school? It depends what you're trying to learn. Having a good ear, being able to transcribe, can be a useful starting point - and decidedly useful for party gigs, weddings and the like, but if you have no real affinity or love of the music you're transcribing then it's a somewhat passive means of earning a living.
dire tonic, you shoot in a different direction than me. You studied classical music (hopefully), including the music of Bach; but was your goal in the future to write and perform your music in the style of Bach ("For (pop) music, the better school is in the creation of the music itself, understanding its tropes through the means of production in the recording studio , which, for most pop, is where it all happens!) ? Do you think that the main goal of 100% of students is to achieve what you demonstrate with your links?
My practice shows - no. Students in this early stage are not targeting the studio or video recordings ; they want to learn how to INTERPRET the comps of different songs in different rhythms and different harmonies in a solo playing or with an ensemble. In college, my curriculum is around the piano. In addition, there are courses in harmony, arrangement, songwriting, a number of workshops in the genres of Israeli pop, western pop and rock, oriental music, jazz (a lot of swing pop) and more. My task: to give the student such skills that he fits into the framework of the group; and could also play alone, or a duet with vocals. The results confirm the teaching concept: the pianistic requirements of the performance of pop music, as much as possible, at the classical level.

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Originally Posted by Nahum
I have had it for many years. It is written very cleverly: at first it slaps at a slow pace, and then the rhythmic figures become clear. But that's not all - while gradually accelerating, super patterns are suddenly discovered that spread over several bars.

I'm sorry, Nahum, but none of this is accurate.

It does not start at any kind of pace or reveal rhythmic figures in a gradual way - it's pretty much straight in at the nuts and bolts (I hope you understand that expression) and then moves on to different note values and combinations.

What is a 'super pattern'? It sounds like a colourful expression without any real meaning. Hyperbole, maybe?

Finally, the book does not indicate any 'acceleration' in tempi. In fact, a brief read of the preface says "The speed of the exercises is determined by the ability of the student". There are zero tempo indications in any of the exercises.

I honestly read your statement thinking you were just describing a generic method book. Maybe re-open your copy and have another read.


Originally Posted by Nahum
However, it was precisely in this book that I understood the problematic nature of reading the rhythm recorded in the form of a series of attacks — that which claps produce; therefore there is no difference between fourth, eighth, sixteenth and syncopation. This is the thinking of a drummer, and I played the violin and saxophone, where rhythmic thinking goes through the duration of breathing, that is, prosody.


The book is designed to help drummers/musos (they can be the same...sometimes ha), recognise rhythmic patterns. They're not 'attacks'. How someone decides to shape the rhythmic phrase is what we call musicality and can involve any manner of note combinations, but we need to understand those patterns first. Everyone has different methods of working patterns out, and it's important that we help students find what works for them.


Originally Posted by Nahum
Yes, I made some exaggeration, but ... Ask those who studied classical piano in the 50s and 60s if they had printed sheet music for the music you mentioned, and did they work with the teacher on these songs during the lesson? I doubt it. During my studies in period of Soviet Union, such a request would undoubtedly have caused a worldwide scandal. At the same time, we all listened to Western European radio stations, and we played our memorized hits by ear.

Thank you for acknowledging your exaggeration. Although, I don't understand why you've brought classical pianists from the 50s and 60s into this conversation. We're talking about ways of learning and understanding rhythmic combinations.

I'm sure there were many pianists learning in that period who were influenced by the likes of Fats Waller, Dave Brubeck, Jelly Roll Morton, Count Basie, Duke Ellington and being subjected to countless syncopated rhythms and not the simple rhythmic patterns you cited with Moon River.


Originally Posted by Nahum
You have completely forgotten the revolution in the music mass media, which was made by MTV channel . The number of kids who wanted to play "Billie Jean" by Michael Jackson was many times more than those who wanted to play "Night and Day" by Cole Porter - different times! The impact of TV is many times stronger than radio; but have you watched MTV a lot yourself?

Do you think that it may be possible that between 1932 (Night and Day) and 1983 (Billie Jean), there may have been one, or two, more popular music influences to inspire young musical minds?

Did the Beatles not inspire? Billy Joel? Elton John? Ray Charles? Yes? The Who? Queen? Led Zep? Stevie Wonder? The whole Motown scene? Disco?

Have I watched MTV? Yes, MANY years ago and it's changed a lot since it first started. It's been a heck of a long time since MTV inspired anyone to pick up an instrument (IMO)


Originally Posted by Nahum
It is worth paying attention to the 5th paragraph of Takadimi's declared goals:

5. It should address rhythmic issues presented by musics
outside the realm of traditional tonal literature such as
asymmetric meters, modulation of meter or tempo, complex
syncopations, complex tuplet groupings, and passages that
combine these in novel and challenging ways.
( Takadimi: A Beat-Oriented System of
Rhythm Pedagogy
)

That's right, it's a system of rhythm pedagogy. There are many different systems and varying pedagogies that exist for many different disciplines. It's not a definitive system. It's a system that will work for some people, and not others - and that's okay.


Originally Posted by Nahum
The study of Takadimi is based on the basic skills of every normal person: sense of rhythm, breathing, pronunciation, memory for a small number of syllables; and in the end - bringing into coordination prosody and the movement of hands and fingers on the keyboard; which is much simpler than playing a piece, with different parts for each hand. But if someone wants to scratch his right ear behind with his left hand, then who can forbid him?

Believe it or not, the 'basic skills of every normal person', is not about moving one's hands, or fingers, on a keyboard. What even is 'normal'?


Originally Posted by Nahum
I don't have any degree in pop music or even jazz; maybe that's why I worked at the jazz department of the Jerusalem Academy for 33 years - until my retirement.

Well, anyone can get stuck in a department/academic bubble for a number of years, it's rarely a good thing. I wonder if the department you fronted would have been better served by someone with a true love, passion, understanding, and upbringing of jazz and pop music. As a student I'd find that inspiring.

I'm sure in all those years you may have once stated the idiom: 'self-praise is no praise', to an overzealous student. Regardless of whether you did or not, I offer it now as a humble phrase to keep in mind.


Originally Posted by dire tonic
I don't know if you're aware of the Discogs database. It's the largest index of popular music with considerable detail on production and label credits. I traced you via Platina and found some recorded albums against your name, some Jazz and some vocal easy listening. You mention Alona Turel who has two listings but no pop to speak of. And while on the subject of Discogs, you've summarised your CV, here's mine.

Great CV dire tonic, and I also checked out your YouTube clips earlier today. Very nice playing!

Staying on the subject of pop music, Nahum, I'd like to ask your opinion on some piano tracks I made and uploaded to this site a couple of months ago. I was asking about tips to work out a good pop piano accompaniment. You very kindly offered some advice early in the discussion, but I was surprised you offered no opinion on how you'd improve the tracks.

The thread is here:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...omp-with-pop-rock-songs.html#Post3122911

If you have a chance, please do have a listen and let me know what you'd do to improve the rhythmic groove between my hands, and what you'd do differently to embody the spirit of the song.


Originally Posted by dire tonic
The risk of being dogmatic was raised earlier. I want to stress how important it is to keep flexible in one's way of thinking, to be as open as possible to the widest variety of advice we offer. Modern solo pop piano is a pursuit in its infancy without even competing templates for study. While we may be able to offer constructive suggestions, no one can honestly put forward definitive answers to beginners' questions. We shouldn't pretend we can.

I wholeheartedly agree with this - it's so important (as I've previously said), to acknowledge that not everyone learns in the same way and to be effective educators we must prioritise the student's needs and have enough ploys up our sleeves to help where possible.

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Hi

Quote
I wonder if the department you fronted would have been better served by someone with a true love, passion, understanding, and upbringing of jazz and pop music.

Who are you to question Nahum's love for music, or indeed anyone's? From what I've read over the years Nahum has a better understanding of music than the vast majority of people on this forum. I'm equally sure his love for music is without question. As far as I know music has been his whole life, as a professional Jazz Pianist and a Teacher.

And then you have the cheek to ask for his advice.

Good luck with that.


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Originally Posted by Simon_b
Hi

Quote
I wonder if the department you fronted would have been better served by someone with a true love, passion, understanding, and upbringing of jazz and pop music.

Who are you to question Nahum's love for music, or indeed anyone's? From what I've read over the years Nahum has a better understanding of music than the vast majority of people on this forum. I'm equally sure his love for music is without question. As far as I know music has been his whole life, as a professional Jazz Pianist and a Teacher.

And then you have the cheek to ask for his advice.

Good luck with that.

Hey Simon,

You've taken the sentence out of context there. I'm not questioning anyone's love for anything, and sorry if it read like that. The point I was making was that a music department fronted by someone with ALL of those qualities would inspire me as a student. I've no doubt Nahum loves what he does to stay in a job for so long.

On your second point, I had actually asked for advice in the previous thread and was surprised when it wasn't forthcoming - given his contributions and apparent understanding of the genre:

" I didn’t take pop music to my classical lessons —- but I didn’t need to as I was capable of working on them without support"

"Alona Tourel, a professional pop pianist, most in demand in recording studios, with experience in New York. Playing with her, it was easy to learn what she was doing."


I'm always open to feedback as I believe it's how one progresses - I think it's important to have an open attitude as both a learner and as an educator. As someone who has worked (and still does) in many of London's top colleges the dogmatic approach just doesn't wash with students these days (if it ever did). So of course I will still ask for feedback, I do every day from many different sources (friends, family, colleagues, musical directors, piano professors etc.)

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Edited to add (before the time expired):

I'm grateful my ego doesn't get in the way like it used to.

As Andrew Lippa said to me the other day 'hear as many opinions as you can, don't be dismissive, and work out what works for you'. Sage advice I feel.

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Originally Posted by fatar760
I'm sorry, Nahum, but none of this is accurate.

It does not start at any kind of pace or reveal rhythmic figures in a gradual way - it's pretty much straight in at the nuts and bolts (I hope you understand that expression)
Never met; maybe a demonstration of the internal screws of a mechanism?


Quote
What is a 'super pattern'? It sounds like a colourful expression without any real meaning. Hyperbole, maybe?
Finally, the book does not indicate any 'acceleration' in tempi. In fact, a brief read of the preface says "The speed of the exercises is determined by the ability of the student". There are zero tempo indications in any of the exercises.

I honestly read your statement thinking you were just describing a generic method book. Maybe re-open your copy and have another read.




Based on exercise on p.5 , tempo - 92- 280 bpm.
It's about music ,not poking a drum,



Quote
The book is designed to help drummers/musos (they can be the same...sometimes ha), recognise rhythmic patterns.
On the title page is written FOR ALL INSTRUMENTS . There are specific tutorials for drummers, for example by Ted Reed.


Quote
They're not 'attacks'.
Attack The initiation of a sound. In terms of the four stages of a sound (Attack, Decay, Sustain and Release, or ADSR), a sound’s attack is the point where the sound begins and increases in volume to its peak. Hitting the table, clapping with two hands (Bellson's exercises are based on this) and snare , sound the beat, but not the duration of the note , as well as the duration of the pauses - this is what I see as a disadvantage of these exercises.




Quote
Do you think that it may be possible that between 1932 (Night and Day) and 1983 (Billie Jean), there may have been one, or two, more popular music influences to inspire young musical minds?
This is a superficial view. You, apparently, are unfamiliar with the terror of many teachers of classical music against "Yazz muzik" or against playing with glissands and vibrato on wind instruments. The teachers built crystal palaces of art around the students, as free as possible from the influence of "bad" music. Imagine that in Israel in the 60s. the overwhelming majority of the population arriving from Europe had a classical musical education in one size or another, and listened to classical music. Unsurprisingly, when it came to the Beatles' tour of Israel, the government vetoed it. I think all the music teachers in country were happy. Unfamiliar?


Quote
Believe it or not, the 'basic skills of every normal person', is not about moving one's hands, or fingers, on a keyboard. What even is 'normal'?
Invite a student of yours to play the piano for the exact rhythm of the syllables in the sentence "I always play the exact rhythm." Did it go easy?



Quote
Well, anyone can get stuck in a department/academic bubble for a number of years, it's rarely a good thing. I wonder if the department you fronted would have been better served by someone with a true love, passion, understanding, and upbringing of jazz and pop music. As a student I'd find that inspiring.

I'm sure in all those years you may have once stated the idiom: 'self-praise is no praise', to an overzealous student. Regardless of whether you did or not, I offer it now as a humble phrase to keep in mind.
Ask Tamir Hendelman, Itzhak Yadid, Miku Narunsky, Greg Foldvari, Ruslan Sirota, Ofer Portugali, Mordy Ferber, Alona Keren.


Quote
Great CV dire tonic, and I also checked out your YouTube clips earlier today. Very nice playing!

I have noted for a long time that the awful tonic here among us is undoubtedly the most professional pop pianist.

Staying on the subject of pop music, Nahum, I'd like to ask your opinion on some piano tracks I made and uploaded to this site a couple of months ago. I was asking about tips to work out a good pop piano accompaniment. You very kindly offered some advice early in the discussion, but I was surprised you offered no opinion on how you'd improve the tracks.

The thread is here:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...omp-with-pop-rock-songs.html#Post3122911

If you have a chance, please do have a listen and let me know what you'd do to improve the rhythmic groove between my hands, and what you'd do differently to embody the spirit of the song.

.[/quote]Ok, give me some time.

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Originally Posted by Nahum
Never met; maybe a demonstration of the internal screws of a mechanism?

Ha, not quite. It's maybe a bit of a British phrase. It basically means no frills, does what it says on the tin, stripped to to the basic cores of functionality. Although, I sense maybe I saw your sense of humor here.


Originally Posted by Nahum



Based on exercise on p.5 , tempo - 92- 280 bpm.
It's about music ,not poking a drum,

I take it you've uploaded this to your own YouTube channel? What you present here is not in the book, in fact the typeset is quite different and it looks like it's been transcribed on Sib or Finale.

Here is a link to the original book I was referring to (no tempo indications):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wbfiv2x4pdeh4m1/Modern-Reading-Text-in-4x4-Louis-Bellson.pdf?dl=0


Originally Posted by Nahum
On the title page is written FOR ALL INSTRUMENTS . There are specific tutorials for drummers, for example by Ted Reed.

Louis Bellson, the author, was a renowned jazz drummer. Of course rhythm is an issue that spans all instruments, and so can be applied to pretty much anyone wishing to improve that aspect of their understanding. As we know, there are countless method books for all instruments - no definitive method, right?


Originally Posted by Nahum
Attack The initiation of a sound. In terms of the four stages of a sound (Attack, Decay, Sustain and Release, or ADSR), a sound’s attack is the point where the sound begins and increases in volume to its peak. Hitting the table, clapping with two hands (Bellson's exercises are based on this) and snare , sound the beat, but not the duration of the note , as well as the duration of the pauses - this is what I see as a disadvantage of these exercises.

That's the nuts and bolts! Yes, musicality is taken out of the equation, I agree. It's a bit like drill exercises (Hanon springs to mind), where you can be drilling patterns for the sake of function and you forget to make it musical. The purpose of Bellson's book is similar in that regard, but it doesn't mean that one can't be creative and add musicality to it.


Originally Posted by Nahum
This is a superficial view. You, apparently, are unfamiliar with the terror of many teachers of classical music against "Yazz muzik" or against playing with glissands and vibrato on wind instruments. The teachers built crystal palaces of art around the students, as free as possible from the influence of "bad" music. Imagine that in Israel in the 60s. the overwhelming majority of the population arriving from Europe had a classical musical education in one size or another, and listened to classical music. Unsurprisingly, when it came to the Beatles' tour of Israel, the government vetoed it. I think all the music teachers in country were happy. Unfamiliar?

Very unfamiliar to me, yes. My whole upbringing was on rock, blues and jazz music (with a touch of classical here and there). Also, my training happened in the 90s, where I suspect many attitudes were shifting. The point I was making was that there were many piano influences prior to MTV and Billie Jean, which you cited. I know many excellent pianists who were influenced by players like Rick Wakeman, Billy Joel etc.

Originally Posted by Nahum
Invite a student of yours to play the piano for the exact rhythm of the syllables in the sentence "I always play the exact rhythm." Did it go easy?

Sorry, I don't understand your point. Can expand on this?



Originally Posted by Nahum
Ask Tamir Hendelman, Itzhak Yadid, Miku Narunsky, Greg Foldvari, Ruslan Sirota, Ofer Portugali, Mordy Ferber, Alona Keren.


I'm assuming these are some of your successes? My point was about staying humble and grateful. For every success there are many who are unsuccessful, right?


Originally Posted by Nahum
Ok, give me some time.

I'd be grateful for that, thank you.

Last edited by fatar760; 07/28/21 09:05 AM.
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I'm gathering that several of you are debating pedagogical methods for gaining proficiency in rhythm ? Unless I'm missing something.

I'm studied and schooled, but not as extensively as some of you. But some of my best "aha moments" were things I discovered from trial and error. And also listening to and internalizing music I came to love. A a child I discovered some swing and blues (circa 1940's) from my father's records (used and very scratchy - purchased at the time after being in juke boxes). Then later I discovered Rhythm&Blues circa 1965 - by listening to WLAC AM radio from Nashville (I was in Central Florida) - late at night when the transmission travels. And then later I purchased and listened to Beatles and other rhythmic based musics. Etc etc.

So fast forward - anyone today with access to YouTube and decent speakers can dial up virtually ANY music - from 1950's tribal African musics - to Patti Page - to deep details in Duke Ellington or Louis Armstrong (circa 1930's). To Arnold Schoenberg to Jacob Collier to the Haden Triplets

(plug for the Haden Triplets - Petra has done some recording with Bill Frisell BTW)


There's no excuse today to be trained exclusively in Western European music to the exclusion of other stuff. And I say.......the best way to learn the other stuff - is to listen , repeatedly, and with intentional focus.

I invented a religion - called Beatlianism. My religion is the ONE and only true way. My religion is sonically based. To practice it, one simply listens to Beatles recordings. But focusing on details. Paul's bass line (usually brilliantly inventive) , vocal harmonies, George's counter-melody over certain songs, sound effects (especially on records like Revolver). And so on and so on. Praise Beatles.

My point to the pedagogues is don't forget to listen. And listen. And listen.

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Originally Posted by indigo_dave
.
My point to the pedagogues is don't forget to listen. And listen. And listen.
You meant, of course, the students.

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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by indigo_dave
.
My point to the pedagogues is don't forget to listen. And listen. And listen.
You meant, of course, the students.

You are correct sir. And I might add - if listening to rhythmic music, dance. Even just in your living room. Feel those rhythms with your body.

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Originally Posted by indigo_dave
Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by indigo_dave
.
My point to the pedagogues is don't forget to listen. And listen. And listen.
You meant, of course, the students.

You are correct sir. And I might add - if listening to rhythmic music, dance. Even just in your living room. Feel those rhythms with your body.
You don't know how many adult students are embarrassed to do this even in front of themselves!

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Originally Posted by indigo_dave
My point to the pedagogues is don't forget to listen. And listen. And listen

Surely, both teacher and student have cause to keep listening - to music and each other.

Originally Posted by indigo_dave
You are correct sir. And I might add - if listening to rhythmic music, dance. Even just in your living room. Feel those rhythms with your body.

I find this is also the case with singing.

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Quote
Originally Posted by Nahum
Invite a student of yours to play the piano for the exact rhythm of the syllables in the sentence "I always play the exact rhythm." Did it go easy?

Originally Posted by fatar760
Sorry, I don't understand your point. Can expand on this?
.
I practice this with students a lot - in order to transfer the rhythm of the invented sentence into the melodic line, in order to develop improvisation skills. The easiest way.
In this case, this patent proves once again that rhythmic figures are born in the brain in the form of a conscious or unconscious prosody that sends orders to the hand and fingers. If we hear a rhythmic error in performance on an instrument, then one of two things: either the internal prosody is erroneous, or there is no strict coordination between the correct internal rhythmic prosody and the movements of the fingers.
The Russian piano school has also long practiced the use of invented texts (subtext) together with playing in order to enhance the musicality of the phrasing.

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Originally Posted by Nahum
Ask Tamir Hendelman, Itzhak Yadid, Miku Narunsky, Greg Foldvari, Ruslan Sirota, Ofer Portugali, Mordy Ferber, Alona Keren.


Originally Posted by fatar760
I'm assuming these are some of your successes?
Also theirs: Tamir Hendelman was the jazz pianist of the month in the States; Ruslan Sirota - twice Jazz Grammy laureate; Alona Keren was the first in Israel to do doctorate on Coltrane music, using material she studied from me.

Quote
My point was about staying humble and grateful
.OK, I humbly and gratefully expect you to find some of them and ask for their opinion of me as a teacher. I do not have a book where such reviews are written on the back cover ...

Quote
For every success there are many who are unsuccessful, right?
Of course, but there is not a single one, not even the weakest, that has not progressed - the most important thing!

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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by Nahum
Ask Tamir Hendelman, Itzhak Yadid, Miku Narunsky, Greg Foldvari, Ruslan Sirota, Ofer Portugali, Mordy Ferber, Alona Keren.


Originally Posted by fatar760
I'm assuming these are some of your successes?
Also theirs: Tamir Hendelman was the jazz pianist of the month in the States; Ruslan Sirota - twice Jazz Grammy laureate; Alona Keren was the first in Israel to do doctorate on Coltrane music, using material she studied from me.

Quote
My point was about staying humble and grateful
.OK, I humbly and gratefully expect you to find some of them and ask for their opinion of me as a teacher. I do not have a book where such reviews are written on the back cover ...

Quote
For every success there are many who are unsuccessful, right?
Of course, but there is not a single one, not even the weakest, that has not progressed - the most important thing!

Nahum, I don't think asking a fellow forum user to seek out your former students in order to heap praise back at you is quite displaying the humility I suggested in my previous post. In actual fact it's quite the opposite, and would no doubt be a little perturbing for them if carried out.

I truly hope you feel grateful to have worked with students who have had success, whereby you can also revel in their celebration. There's nothing more rewarding them being a small cog in someone's success.

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Originally Posted by fatar760
I truly hope you feel grateful to have worked with students who have had success, whereby you can also revel in their celebration. There's nothing more rewarding them being a small cog in someone's success.
Didn't like your efforts to reduce the size of your opponent -the truth doesn't interest you.

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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by fatar760
I truly hope you feel grateful to have worked with students who have had success, whereby you can also revel in their celebration. There's nothing more rewarding them being a small cog in someone's success.
Didn't like your efforts to reduce the size of your opponent -the truth doesn't interest you.

Nahum, I'd respectfully suggest that you refrain from casting aspersions on any user's integrity and avoid using inflammatory language. For clarification, I do not view you as an opponent, and hope that is reciprocated. We're all equals here, on our independent journeys, and should conduct ourselves in a humble and supportive manner.

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Originally Posted by fatar760
Staying on the subject of pop music, Nahum, I'd like to ask your opinion on some piano tracks I made and uploaded to this site a couple of months ago. I was asking about tips to work out a good pop piano accompaniment. You very kindly offered some advice early in the discussion, but I was surprised you offered no opinion on how you'd improve the tracks.

.
If I promised, then I keep my word.


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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by fatar760
Staying on the subject of pop music, Nahum, I'd like to ask your opinion on some piano tracks I made and uploaded to this site a couple of months ago. I was asking about tips to work out a good pop piano accompaniment. You very kindly offered some advice early in the discussion, but I was surprised you offered no opinion on how you'd improve the tracks.

.
If I promised, then I keep my word.


[Linked Image]

https://soundcloud.com/jazzman1945/like-a-prayer

Thank you for taking the time to transcribe that, it's good to hear an alternative.

What did you look to change from my version, and in what way do you feel it compliments the groove of the original? Is there a live version of you playing it where I can hear some of the non-quantized musical nuances? More importantly, what did you think of the tracks I made?

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