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Sebs #3138974 07/19/21 03:35 PM
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I very rarely use headphones as an alternative to JBL LSR305's as monitors.

More expensive monitors will provide improved ability to reproduce the stereo illusion effect and place each instrument in a multi-instrument mix into a spot in a broad 3D soundfield eith less blurring than a less expensive monitor. This capability is not utilized when monitoring a single instrument.

At least one of the higher end monitors you listed has a fairly narrow sweet spot. This reduces the blurring from reflections off surfaces to improve the information the monitor provides about the placement of multiple instruments in the soundstage, but is problematic for piano monitoring since you won't have your head in the sweet spot.


Repertoire interests: early Baroque through early Romantic eras.
Sebs #3139022 07/19/21 05:55 PM
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Ok now Im looking at other options. I dont know why but for some reason I thought yamaha HS was always the best choice and what everyone gets. I did look at focal there are alphas then theres shape. The shape series are quite a bit more. When you get into the price point of the Shape series is there huge difference in those?

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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
The HS5 (-3dB at 74Hz) would be inadequate without a subwoofer. There is no reason to take on the inconvenience of large monitors with 8" drivers to get enough bass extension for piano monitors.

That's the point I was trying to make: to cover the bass well you need a sub. And once you have a sub (which doesn't have to be huge, FWIW) you don't need big monitors (unless you need high power) - you can actually go *smaller* for your midrange. A lot smaller. Look at the frequency response of the HS8S sub - starts to fall off around 100hz. Temblor T10 around the same, maybe gives you an extra 20hz if you trust either chart. Even something (relatively) tiny like the Eris E3.5 has response down to 80Hz. A3X (4.5") states 60Hz. No problem. The sub is doing the heavy lifting down there, in its sweet spot, with everything upwards taken care of by even small monitors that are much easier to position and manage.

And going smaller is effectively what the manufacturers do. Look at a big tri-amp, like the S5V. 12" woofer, 4" mid driver, tweeter. Focal trio, 10+5. S3V, 9+4. RP103 G4, 10+4.5

Sebs #3139045 07/19/21 07:29 PM
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For pianos, you don't need a subwoofer as long as you select monitors with enough bass extension.


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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
For pianos, you don't need a subwoofer as long as you select monitors with enough bass extension.

I plan to use them for more than just piano sounds, that will be primary use but I also want a setup thats more versatile.

Sebs #3139061 07/19/21 08:19 PM
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I went with the Presonus Eris E5 XT studio monitors for my PX-870, and I couldn't be any happier with the results. They sound incredibly realistic when played in tandem with the piano's onboard speakers, and yes, the 5.25" woofers and large front ports do indeed provide ample bass so that a subwoofer is simply not required. I highly recommend these outstanding monitors.

[Linked Image]


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Sebs #3139065 07/19/21 08:28 PM
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If you want nearfield monitors with subwoofer:

10" studio subwoofer with standard crossover at 80Hz and 5" monitors is what I would get. I would still choose monitors with enough bass extension for piano monitoring without the subwoofer for flexibility.

Subwoofer: Presonus Temblor T10 or KRK 10s
Satellites: Presonus Eris 5XT or JBL 305P.

If you want to fill a living room to play for family and friends, or fill performance space, you don't want nearfield monitors.


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That's a nicely arranged piano room.


[Linked Image]

Sebs #3139068 07/19/21 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Sebs
I plan to use them for more than just piano sounds, that will be primary use but I also want a setup thats more versatile.

i don't like to quote myself, but ...

Originally Posted by jackopiano
if you want one set of speakers to do everything you're going to have to make compromises, which is fine if that's ok for you

Sebs #3139086 07/19/21 10:03 PM
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Don't go for speakers unless your room is acoustically great.

I learned the hard way. I first got the speakers and then wanting them to be good.
But they weren't. The room was too bad for them, giving me pressure on the ears like when driving through a tunnel.

Proper studio monitors require a good and acoustically treated room, I found out.
Coming from something like Neumann KH-120 A + 4000 eur invest in the room.
The room was still not good enough, turns out I need way more to invest into acoustics.

Then finding out why piano integrated speakers are so much easier for acoustics - they downfire, or rather, they are a plane source and much less complex than actual speakers made for production usage.

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Originally Posted by camperbc
I went with the Presonus Eris E5 XT studio monitors for my PX-870, and I couldn't be any happier with the results. They sound incredibly realistic when played in tandem with the piano's onboard speakers, and yes, the 5.25" woofers and large front ports do indeed provide ample bass so that a subwoofer is simply not required. I highly recommend these outstanding monitors.

[Linked Image]

Nice looking setup except for too high placed monitors. That prevents tweeters to align with your ears, which makes a big difference. Also, the angle seems to be too open so there is no a triangle closing on your head.

Of course, when you combine them with onboard speakers, that could help to better focus treble. But, IMHO, you are not using the best monitor setup on that position.


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Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Don't go for speakers unless your room is acoustically great.

I learned the hard way. I first got the speakers and then wanting them to be good.
But they weren't. The room was too bad for them, giving me pressure on the ears like when driving through a tunnel.

Proper studio monitors require a good and acoustically treated room, I found out.
Coming from something like Neumann KH-120 A + 4000 eur invest in the room.
The room was still not good enough, turns out I need way more to invest into acoustics.

Then finding out why piano integrated speakers are so much easier for acoustics - they downfire, or rather, they are a plane source and much less complex than actual speakers made for production usage.

I'm not sure what you mean by "proper studio monitors". If you mean monitors designed for audio mix engineering, then treating your space will enhance their capability for that activity, but will not turn them into good piano monitors if they are not otherwise well suited to that function.

If you have monitors that are well suited to piano monitoring, it is not mandatory that most rooms be treated for that purpose. Treating the space may improve the accuracy of the sound produced by the monitors by reducing comb filtering from reflected sound, but for most residential spaces or office spaces or similar, it will not be the difference between the monitors functioning well or not well as piano monitors.


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Originally Posted by camperbc
I went with the Presonus Eris E5 XT studio monitors for my PX-870, and I couldn't be any happier with the results. They sound incredibly realistic when played in tandem with the piano's onboard speakers, and yes, the 5.25" woofers and large front ports do indeed provide ample bass so that a subwoofer is simply not required. I highly recommend these outstanding monitors.

[Linked Image]

I second that, I also have those and they sound great and are reasonably priced.

Sebs #3139127 07/20/21 03:01 AM
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I would add that speakers with titanium dome tweeters often are known to be fatiguing for extended listening. That may have been the issue with the Neumann KH-120A monitors. I would avoid titanium dome tweeters for piano monitors.


Repertoire interests: early Baroque through early Romantic eras.
EB5AGV #3139130 07/20/21 03:46 AM
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Originally Posted by EB5AGV
Originally Posted by camperbc
I went with the Presonus Eris E5 XT studio monitors for my PX-870, and I couldn't be any happier with the results. They sound incredibly realistic when played in tandem with the piano's onboard speakers, and yes, the 5.25" woofers and large front ports do indeed provide ample bass so that a subwoofer is simply not required. I highly recommend these outstanding monitors.

[Linked Image]

Nice looking setup except for too high placed monitors. That prevents tweeters to align with your ears, which makes a big difference. Also, the angle seems to be too open so there is no a triangle closing on your head.

Of course, when you combine them with onboard speakers, that could help to better focus treble. But, IMHO, you are not using the best monitor setup on that position.

I was thinking the same thing! It's just that we are accustomed to having the sound to 'virtually' originate from the DP while sitting at the bench, just like it's acoustic brothers. So having those speakers that high, somehow, breaks that illusion... An illusion that DP makers work so hard to accomplish with only onboard speakers to work with.

But with the TV in the middle, suggests you, camperbc , might be using that same speakers for watching movies. If that's the case, then the minimum you could do is angle it a little downwards, that it points at the head of a sitting person, 3 meters from your TV. That way your speakers are virtually at ear level while keeping your speaker mounts the same. Well if your satisfied as it is, that is also okay.


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Originally Posted by josh_sounds
Originally Posted by EB5AGV
Originally Posted by camperbc
I went with the Presonus Eris E5 XT studio monitors for my PX-870, and I couldn't be any happier with the results. They sound incredibly realistic when played in tandem with the piano's onboard speakers, and yes, the 5.25" woofers and large front ports do indeed provide ample bass so that a subwoofer is simply not required. I highly recommend these outstanding monitors.

[Linked Image]

Nice looking setup except for too high placed monitors. That prevents tweeters to align with your ears, which makes a big difference. Also, the angle seems to be too open so there is no a triangle closing on your head.

Of course, when you combine them with onboard speakers, that could help to better focus treble. But, IMHO, you are not using the best monitor setup on that position.

I was thinking the same thing! It's just that we are accustomed to having the sound to 'virtually' originate from the DP while sitting at the bench, just like it's acoustic brothers. So having those speakers that high, somehow, breaks that illusion... An illusion that DP makers work so hard to accomplish with only onboard speakers to work with.

But with the TV in the middle, suggests you, camperbc , might be using that same speakers for watching movies. If that's the case, then the minimum you could do is angle it a little downwards, that it points at the head of a sitting person, 3 meters from your TV. That way your speakers are virtually at ear level while keeping your speaker mounts the same. Well if your satisfied as it is, that is also okay.

It seems as though some folks on here are wrongly assuming, based on my photo, that I don't know much about speaker placement. But truth be told... I have other reasons for why they're placed where they are in that particular photo. I suppose I should add that when I am playing my piano, they are indeed pointing directly at me. And when I'm watching TV, I have them angled higher, (as shown in the pic) so that they will still be pointing at me, where I am sitting across the room. It takes all of three seconds to re-position these speakers, to point them anywhere in the room.

I'd also be remiss if I didn't add that with the way that these studio monitors are made, Presonus uses a tweeter which is designed to radiate sound with a much wider dispersion pattern than other tweeters do, which in turn creates a larger "sweet spot"... so that they really don't have to be targeted precisely at one's head.

Also, before someone notices that my lamp is blocking part of the TV, well, it just clips on/off in a second, so no, our view of the TV is not blocked.

Much thought and experimentation went into the placement of these monitors, and this height is what works best, in tandem with the onboard speakers. Stop in one day, and I'll be happy to give you a demonstration.

Last edited by camperbc; 07/20/21 11:51 AM.

Glen
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Thanks for the explanation.

I feel that too much is made of the head triangle and the sweet spot.
So I had no concerns about the angle of your speakers ... though it's now clear you have a tilt mechanism to deal with that.

But I was puzzled by the height of the speakers ... until I took heed of the TV.
So it became clear that these are dual use speakers. S'good.

I also feel that too much is made of the unsuitability of near field monitors for room-wide use.
I use them for both (as do you), and I have no problems.

So I have to say (again) ... nice room.

Originally Posted by camperbc
Stop in one day, and I'll be happy to give you a demonstration.
It's a long way to Tipperary ... and it's a long way to Newfoundland. Maybe someday.

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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Thanks for the explanation.

I feel that too much is made of the head triangle and the sweet spot.
So I had no concerns about the angle of your speakers ... though it's now clear you have a tilt mechanism to deal with that.

But I was puzzled by the height of the speakers ... until I took heed of the TV.
So it became clear that these are dual use speakers. S'good.

I also feel that too much is made of the unsuitability of near field monitors for room-wide use.
I use them for both (as do you), and I have no problems.

So I have to say (again) ... nice room.

Originally Posted by camperbc
Stop in one day, and I'll be happy to give you a demonstration.
It's a long way to Tipperary ... and it's a long way to Newfoundland. Maybe someday.

MacMacMac, you should put a Newfoundland trip (and Fogo Island in particular) on your bucket list; there really is no other place quite like it. Here are three different views, all taken right from our windows.

[Linked Image]


[Linked Image]


[Linked Image]


Glen
www.FocusOnNewfoundland.com

- Casio Privia PX-870BK
- Casiotone CT-680
- Casiotone CT-S300
Sebs #3139259 07/20/21 01:55 PM
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Please excuse me if this is a silly question... But what are they main differences when you go from a $200 monitor say hs5 to a $600 say monitor focal shape 40? I dont know enough about components or this area to even have any idea even if I read detail spec sheet. Is it usually just the components that drive the price?

Last edited by Sebs; 07/20/21 01:57 PM.
Sebs #3139268 07/20/21 02:57 PM
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As nearfield studio monitors become more expensive, they become more specialized in design to meet specific audio engineering requirements, sometimes at the expense of meeting some the requirements of a general purpose speaker, but sometimes both requirements are met.

Instrument monitoring has its own requirements that overlap with other speaker uses, but are not 100% aligned. Flat response is more critical than it is for home stereo speakers-- and the size of space to be filled, from small studio to large performance venue affects the choice.


Repertoire interests: early Baroque through early Romantic eras.
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