Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner - Non Classical Vocal melodies in today's pop

Even before Pop pianist (professional or aspiring) will take the most efficient path to get to grips, I highly recommend visit drum and rhythm guitar lesson - it can save time searching in the efficient fog. https://www.drumchat.com/showthread...74047a1774d5a25135&p=88978#post88978

Even before Pop pianist (professional or aspiring) will take the most efficient path to get to grips, I highly recommend visit drum and rhythm guitar lesson - it can save time searching in the efficient fog. https://www.drumchat.com/showthread...74047a1774d5a25135&p=88978#post88978

If you can say it, you can play it!

I still don't understand why using TA KA TI etc. is better than saying the actual lyrics? I understand this is a well know method and many use it I'm only curious the benefit. I could see it being useful learning rhythm where there are no lyrics but for my case you would still use this method to learn vocal melody?

SNF = Saturday Night Fever (the film/show you chose the song 'Staying Alive' from)

It is the pronunciation itself that I find confusing - in fact, it's getting in the way of me reading the rhythm in that I'm spending longer working out how to pronounce the syllables than just clapping the rhythm.

Whilst it's great you've had some success with students using this approach, it's equally important to acknowledge that not one size fits all. As teachers it's crucial we have a range of ploys up our sleeves so that we find the most suitable one for the person(s) we're teaching.



Yeah, I agree.



Sebs, I think if you're able to accurately work out and clap a rhythm you're struggling with, within a structure (say with a metronome or someone else keeping time) then you should absolutely add the original lyrics after this is learnt. Why? Because this is the way you're going to play/perform it.

Take the SNF song. Which is easier? Learning how to pronounce all the Takas etc. and THEN learning how the lyrics fit with that or just learning the rhythm of the lyrics in the first place?

Here's a specific situation:
Richard Tee - My Sweetness
https://kupdf.net/download/piano-richard-tee-keyboard techniquepdf_59abc493dc0d604f49568edc_pdf
p. 67 from B.
No lyrics and, say, no internet along with YouTube. What to do?

Here's what Australian educator Tim Topham advises in regards to studying pop music:

https://topmusic.co/how-to-teach-pop-songs-in-6-simple-steps/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=How+to+teach+pop+in+6+simple+steps+%28correct+link%29&utm_campaign=%5BWeekly+News%5D+July+21+correction&vgo_ee=afkLNuzMXK52W2yv%2FuBBihAU9yBt7G2IlFz6W1kYcR8cFJ0Z5ZsIrgiCZHfQOxdw

On my own behalf, I will add that in the near future, printed sheet music of pop music will consist of lyrics with inscribed chords and links from YouTube. In fact, a student who is poor at reading notes, especially rhythm, does not need anything else.
This will be the ultimate stage between splitting of the academic learning process into the study of music and the study of the notes of music.

Hi

That Richard Tee book is a find Nahum - many thanks. I've searched for a transcription book for years and never even managed to even find proof one existed! Interestingly Richard Tee did sing and he played funky drums as well.

Sebs - if you're not familiar with Richard Tee, he was one of the top session Pianists until his death in the 90s. He played on hundreds of sessions, in many genres (Pop/Soul/Jazz/R&B) and had a unique style, which fused his early classical training with a heavy Gospel influence. The transcriptions that Nahum has found are very high level. You'll need to be a good reader to play these fluently, and have a feel for his style. Well worth downloading, but not easy - in fact very difficult indeed.

Cheers

I would clap it whilst keeping a steady pulse. If I had struggled with any of the rhythms (which I didn't in this example), then I'd isolate those parts and work them out. Mostly I'm looking for how the beats are grouped and then the rhythms within in beat.

Let me remind that each next pattern tends to distort after the previous one; and trying to initially play full line is a superfluous ​waste of time .

Can you explain why playing the full line is a superfluous waste of time? Surely it's a good thing that one can play what's written...

Hope I used the right words. Classical pianists understand this to a lesser extent. Anyone who studies the classical repertoire imperceptibly absorbs the rule of composition of that period: everything that reflects the typical character of a piece: texture, tempo, register, rhythmic figures, etc. must remain stable before they change. The dynamics of the chunks gradually evolve from lasting stability to more rapid changes reflecting tension and instability.
For example, you played the 1st movement of Dussek's sonatina op.19. Each rhythmic pattern lasts a whole bar, and the first unexpected change occurs in bar 4 - in accordance with the aforementioned principle: stability and development dynamics. For the 4th bar, we can say that it contains 2 patterns. It is very convenient to read notes for eyesight.
There has been a period in the history of pop music when it was just as easy to read the sheet music of songs, especially ballads; for example, Moon River with its calm rhythm:
Moon River
Again, the rhythmic patterns are spread over two bars. In such conditions, the distorting effect of the previous pattern is weak, if at all.
Since the beginning of the 60s, rhythmic figures from drums and rhythm of guitars began to invade the vocal melodies of songs (in fact, earlier, with the appearance of rhythm and blues in the African American community in the 40s, but notes were not published).

When I started working with piano students who were studying classical piano on the Beatles' scores, the fundamental problems of reading the rhythm of the songs immediately emerged. It is this ubiquitous phenomenon that was noticed in the 80s. and became the reason for the development of the rhythmic language of Takadimi - by the way, at the same time with my lessons in the 90s.
The fact is that, in relation to classical music, there was an acceleration in pop music: patterns began to change every half of the bar, and later - every quarter; and all this is copiously filled with syncopation.
In classical music, each phrase is worked on separately, which includes dynamics, rhythm, etc. The phrase can be 4 or 2 bars. In modern pop music, to study rhythm, it is very often necessary to disassemble the music into separate quarters. Otherwise, in the absence of experience in reading pop music from sheet music, you "get stuck" on the second pattern.

Hi Nahum,

Thanks for your reply.

No, I think you've misused the word 'superfluous' there, but not to worry, I understand what you're trying to say.

Of course, it's not just classical pianists that absorb a composer's traits. I can think of many Jazz/MT/Pop composers that are also quite identifiable in their writing style, and through playing, one learns what to expect when tackling one of their pieces. R+H or Cole Porter instantly spring to mind.

I feel your description of the history of pop music is over-simplistic and lacks nuance. For every Moon River I could point you to a host of Jazz and Blues standards littered with varying syncopated rhythms deriving from the 30s, 40s, 50s etc., the very subject of this thread. It certainly wasn't a shift just seen in 80s. In fact, rhythmic patterns can vary in any style/genre of music irrespective of the number of bars. I say this as someone who has a BMus in Jazz, Pop and Commercial Music and has studied the history of popular music.

With regards to current pop music you still get repeated rhythmic patterns and, once learnt, is no different to any other form of rhythm learning. I take by 'modern' you're referring to music of the last 50/60 years though, right?, as rhythmically a song sung by Justin Timberlake has the same kind of patterns that you'll hear in a Stevie Wonder, or Motown, song from the 60s and 70s. What has changed are the vocal qualities being applied to the genre - which has heightened the sense of identity and individuality in the music - but even that's been going on for decades too.

Like I said previously, there are a number of ways of working out uncertain rhythms. If Takadimi works for you then that's great mate. It won't work for all students though, and it's important to find a variety in methods so that you can be a flexible teacher who caters to the student's needs.

One rhythm book that I was recommended whilst studying (and still use) is Louis Bellson's Modern Reading Text in 4/4:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B004NBXMHK/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

Well worth checking out!

I have had it for many years. It is written very cleverly: at first it slaps at a slow pace, and then the rhythmic figures become clear. But that's not all - while gradually accelerating, super patterns are suddenly discovered that spread over several bars. A very sophisticated drummer. However, it was precisely in this book that I understood the problematic nature of reading the rhythm recorded in the form of a series of attacks — that which claps produce; therefore there is no difference between fourth, eighth, sixteenth and syncopation. This is the thinking of a drummer, and I played the violin and saxophone, where rhythmic thinking goes through the duration of breathing, that is, prosody.
10 years later in Israel, my former colleague Roni Holan published a collection of similar exercises related to the more modern rhythms of pop, rock and fusion music Rhythm For All , which has the same problem: the rhythm is like a series of attacks with pauses in between .

Yes, I made some exaggeration, but ... Ask those who studied classical piano in the 50s and 60s if they had printed sheet music for the music you mentioned, and did they work with the teacher on these songs during the lesson? I doubt it. During my studies in period of Soviet Union, such a request would undoubtedly have caused a worldwide scandal. At the same time, we all listened to Western European radio stations, and we played our memorized hits by ear.

.

Strongly disagree! You have completely forgotten the revolution in the music mass media, which was made by MTV channel . The number of kids who wanted to play "Billie Jean" by Michael Jackson was many times more than those who wanted to play "Night and Day" by Cole Porter - different times! The impact of TV is many times stronger than radio; but have you watched MTV a lot yourself?

It is worth paying attention to the 5th paragraph of Takadimi's declared goals:

5. It should address rhythmic issues presented by musics
outside the realm of traditional tonal literature such as
asymmetric meters, modulation of meter or tempo, complex
syncopations, complex tuplet groupings, and passages that
combine these in novel and challenging ways.
( Takadimi: A Beat-Oriented System of
Rhythm Pedagogy )

Sorry, I don't accept that! The study of Takadimi is based on the basic skills of every normal person: sense of rhythm, breathing, pronunciation, memory for a small number of syllables; and in the end - bringing into coordination prosody and the movement of hands and fingers on the keyboard; which is much simpler than playing a piece, with different parts for each hand.
But if someone wants to scratch his right ear behind with his left hand, then who can forbid him?

Nahum
Maybe you shouldn’t be so dismissive of other approaches. I learned to count rhythm long before takadimi and don’t find any reason to change from something that works perfectly well for me. Your disparaging comment about scratching an ear is not convincing and is an inappropriate slam in a forum meant for discussion and not dogmatic comments.

And BTW: I didn’t take pop music to my classical lessons —- but I didn’t need to as I was capable of working on them without support. If I would have needed my teacher, there would have been no problem with bringing my questions to my lessons.

latin and japanese pop often have complicated rhythms with japanese pop being less syncopated than latin pop. "ELVIS CRESPO - tu sonrisa" and "PERFUME - polyrhythm" are key examples of the rhythms common in each of the afforementiones countries music, i think greek pop tends to be more rhythmically interesting too.

Nahum, what has been your own involvement, over the years, in pop music? Were you, for example, in any pop bands? Have you spent any time professionally as a pop musician?

The study of conventional written music, including rhythm, is also approachable by any normal person.


Yet you are advocating deploying both hands in the act of scratching one ear. What is the point of that?

Since " other approaches" not specifically mentioned , I assume that this is about counting; and I really do neglect it - which I have mentioned many times. The reason was also mentioned a lot: the counting of the rhythm is not a rhythmic language , even in English.
At the same time, I am respectful to other existing rhythmic languages , although not all of them are suitable by the sound to jazz and pop music. I'm not sure that the majority of piano teachers have a similar attitude towards rhythmic languages, but maybe I'm wrong.

My situation is exactly the same, and in addition I played in symphony and chamber orchestras, where I had to read a lot of music from sight. Trust me: in 49 years of teaching, I have only had one student with such a background; who is studying right now. My teaching experience has clearly shown that what was good in 1958 does not meet modern rhythmic requirements - of course, in the community where I was educated. My pedagogical approach is not to lengthen the duration of the study of rhythm, but save it as much as possible. .

This is not at all about this; the focus is on how much time the student spends learning new types of rhythmic melodies using Takadimi or another rhythmic language versus using regular counting. When rhythmic patterns are learned , they are recognized in other songs, and the study time is reduced even more.
To refute, it is necessary, of course, start with the same.

There is a lot to tell; suffice it to mention that before moving to Israel, I played almost only pop in restaurant and club bands; the truth is, I did it more instinctively. When I started playing in Platina fusion group, there was also Alona Tourel, a professional pop pianist, most in demand in recording studios, with experience in New York. Playing with her, it was easy to learn what she was doing.
Also, for 10 years I was a companion in a pop-only wedding band; and within this framework I transcribed a lot of music from the recordings quite accurately, including the piano and keyboards. The best school: transcription in the morning, playing in the evening.
But no - I don't have any degree in pop music or even jazz; maybe that's why I worked at the jazz department of the Jerusalem Academy for 33 years - until my retirement.