Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Wet Sand Casting versus "V-Pro" Casting for Piano Harps

Drawing conclusions from marketing pieces is speculation.

I actually have zero opinion on whether v-cast or wet sand cast plates can be superior to the other if fabricated to the highest pianistic standard.

As a piano consumer, I find it unhelpful when people trying to sell a particular brand of piano raise a regular drumbeat of purportedly negative properties of their competitors. If you cannot sell your own product just by calling out its own virtues, I tend to assume that means it does not have enough of them for the product to distinguish itself from competitors by its own virtues.

One of the problems people are having is that what is "better" is not necessarily the same thing. Sand cast plates may be "better" because they are more economical for small runs of castings, while vacuum cast plates may be "better" economically for large runs. Two standards which depend only on economics, not on whether they impart any better performance of the piano. Nothing in Yamaha's literature implies that the method of casting the plate makes any difference to the performance of the piano. It only says that they are cast in two different manners.

BDB; what causes false beats in plain piano strings?

V-cast plates are sand cast plates. They use negative pressure with dry sand to hold the sand in place. Wet sand cast plates are sand cast plates. They use wet sand to hold the sand in place.

Had Steinway or Bechstein developed vacuum casting, I expect we would be having a very different discussion right now.

The point of v-cast plates is that they are more consistent so that some of the manufacture of the outer case can be automated. This involves a fixed cost for the tooling needed to cut the case parts. The fixed cost for piano A with v-cast plate does not eliminate the fixed cost for piano B with v-cast plates. There needs to be enough volume of production for the tooling cost for the outer case to be paid back through savings in variable cost custom work.

Wet sand cast plates are less consistent in shape and require more manual, custom work when fabricating the outer case.

Causes are not something that concerns me. I just deal with them as best I can. Again, "better" or "best" are not hard and fast terms. An expensive solution on a cheap piano or for a poor client is not a good way of dealing with them.

I am sure you have some theories about the causes. I do not want to hear them.

Also, the vacuum chambers Y and K use may not be large enough for a plate for a 9' piano, and they don't make enough 9' pianos to justify a larger vacuum chamber, which may be more cumbersome for smaller plates.

Y and K know the precise reason. None of us do.

Robbie Gennet has some videos of him trying out Yamahas premium piano range, including the S7X, S5X, CF6 and CFX. He actually liked the S7X the best out of all of them (see his thoughts on the S7X at the end of the video at 3m20s, and also his response to a question about this in the comments section). If the CF line have tonal superiority due to their wet sand cast frames, it was not something he noticed in a side by side comparison.

Of course, I can also mention the review of the S7X by James Pavel Shawcross. Now I know some of you here will disparage his expertise by saying he is not a serious pianist, nor piano technician; however, he has played a lot of high end pianos and thought carefully about their tonal characteristics. He considered the Yamaha S7X to be one of his favourites, despite its V cast frame.

Wait, I just realised something really concerning - Robbie Gennet is playing *JAZZ* music on that piano! But that piano is only suitable for early classical music!

The opinions of one or two people are no more than that. In the case of JPS I think it matters greatly that he is not an advanced pianist or piano tech since those are two of the biggest indicators of knowledge. It matters little that he has played a lot of pianos and "thought carefully"(how would anyone know that and how can someone with little knowledge do that?).

I’m sure Yamaha has noted, debated, and agonized over why Kawai can use VPro plates in all their Shigerus except for the concert grand. Plus, Yamaha changed the S series sand cast plate to a VPro plate while introducing the special rim that for now is only found on the SX series so now so you can’t really compare the differences between the two different series to hear the difference.

IMHO
Del’s post, which has been ignored by many, is that the method of casting doesn’t matter. That’s enough for me.

Agreed. Del is far more experienced than I am, so that sounds about right. It makes sense. If one method was proved to be a significant improvement over the other, every piano maker would move to use the better method.

I strongly suggest that anyone purchasing a piano ask the seller or have tested the V-bar for hardness regardless of the plate casting methods used. And the profile of the V-bar should be examined and best results have been proven over time to require the V-bar to be a definite V-shape, (most V-bars are more U-shaped), with a 1mm string contact width at the apex of the V.

It is all about not crushing the wire, or subjecting it to abrasion during tuning, and allowing for full freedom for the pivot termination principle to function.

Soft grey iron is the most self-lubricious. Harder forms of grey iron are more abrasive. Ask any machinist who works with iron castings. All iron castings have a hard skin on them so the V-bar must be made oversize during the casting process and machined down to final specs.

When I published my text for piano technicians titled: The Educated Piano; Steinway purchased seven copies. I ran into Michael Mohr, (who works for them and is Franz Mohr's son) at a PTG convention shortly after my book came out. Michael told me after he read my blurb on V-bars he went and looked up all the different specs Steinway has had over the years about V-bars. Michael said, "He found one that described my specs exactly the same way." I told him, I know, I have found a few old Steinway's that were at that spec.

Well, that would explain why there is no data showing Yamaha and Kawai pianos breaking strings more often than Steinways. Apparently Steinway has been using the wrong v-bar spec for many decades as well.

And they are far from alone on this.

In other words, pianos with v-pro plates do not shed strings more frequently than other pianos made in recent decades.

Here is an unclassified report of a study by the Australian military that found no measurable difference in hardness whether negative pressure was applied (two different levels of vacuum were tested) or the casting was done at atmospheric pressure.

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a623833.pdf

Thus, if plates are being made of a harder material today than 150 years ago, it certainly seems to be intentional, realizing whatever detriments and benefits the harder plate achieves.

Well then whose opinion should we value, pianoloverus? What about yours? Have you noticed a difference between pianos with different types of plates?

Before I purchased the Yamaha S7X, I went to the Fazioli dealer. Now a Fazioli would have been almost double the cost of the S7X, but if it was a far superior piano, I would have considered it. I played the 278 for a while. It was fine, but was just like an ordinary piano. Nothing about it struck me as especially beautiful. Then the dealer informed me that he had the 228 upstairs, so I followed him up the stairs to try it. The main thing I noticed about it was that it didn't have the sharp "attack" character of the Yamaha, but had a smoother, rounder sound. Of course, I can't say how much the plate had to do with the different characteristics of the piano. But after about 15 seconds of playing the Fazioli 228 I knew it was not worth the extra AU80k-100k to me. It was different. Not necessarily better unless you happen to prefer its particular characteristics. It was a lot more expensive.

As for the idea that wet sand cast plates produce better sustain, the Bosendorfers and Faziolis I played all had very little sustain in the high treble. Probably no better than that on the Yamahas. The only wet sand cast piano I played where I noticed superior sustain in the treble was the cheap Hailun 218.

You made your choice and you are happy with it. That is all that matters.

But why are you trying to convince other people?

Some people just prefer to buy a Bosendorfer or a Fazioli or a Steinway even it is twice the price of an S7X. They just think its worth it. And that is their choice.
Just let it go.