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#3140795 07/26/21 11:15 PM
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What arpeggios are these ? Thanks in advance !

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I see Fmaj7#5 and the second could be Abmaj7#5 if there was Ab instead of a G#.

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My first instinct was Fmaj7#5 too - but I'd probably think of it more as two separate chords: Fmaj#5 and then A Major.

Second one could be broken down in a similar way: Cmaj#5 then C major.

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I don't have a keyboard to try it out. I go by the sound, not being strong in theory. First one looks like it will sound A major even if it doesn't really parse out.

The lesson here is when you write music use a key signature instead of accidentals. <smiley>


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Since in the 2nd G# slides down to G nat each time, could that just be C major with a kind of appoggiatura feel to it? (Actually the first one also sort of does the same thing)

It might be good to see both of them in the context of the music.

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Also, just to add, that I'd probably play these using two hands crossing-over i.e. I wouldn't play it as a one handed arp. RH - LH - RH - LH

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I also play them with both hands as it dramatically improves speed and flow. Regarding the writing, these I just picked up by ear... I hear them used a lot in classical piano concertos when the piano is interacting with the orchestra. Not sure why I can't find them in my Technical Workbook of scales and arpeggios, which has most arpeggios and arpeggio variants required for grades 1 to 8.

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Here's another one for good measure:

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I should add I play around with these for four or five octaves, not just two. Also using the pedal adds to the effect.

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The third one is Cmaj7#5.

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Nobody has said anything about my proposition of an alternate way of viewing these, nor has anyone picked up on my comment about context (we've not been given any - the OP probably doesn't know that it matters and nobody else has asked about it). I ran this by my teacher.

There are different ways of perceiving those chords. With the original two, they are both the same pattern or chord. The first can also be seen as A6 (A C# E F) - my appog.-slidey thing for the F. with the main chord as the A chord also had merit for how to hear it. But I was asked "What is the musical context? What do the measures before and after do?" which I couldn't answer. "Why didn't the asker give that?" and "Didn't anybody ask?" Well - I did.

Musical context tells us how to hear the chords, and also whether they should have been written differently. Think of the aug6 chord, where you hear a "dom7" both times. If it's going to F or Fm, it will be written C7, but if it's going to B or Bm, it will be written C(aug6) in whatever inversion.

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The third one is Cmaj7#5.
Is that the only possible way of seeing it? It is the same pattern as the other two.

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Originally Posted by keystring
Nobody has said anything about my proposition of an alternate way of viewing these, nor has anyone picked up on my comment about context (we've not been given any - the OP probably doesn't know that it matters and nobody else has asked about it). I ran this by my teacher.

There are different ways of perceiving those chords. With the original two, they are both the same pattern or chord. The first can also be seen as A6 (A C# E F) - my appog.-slidey thing for the F. with the main chord as the A chord also had merit for how to hear it. But I was asked "What is the musical context? What do the measures before and after do?" which I couldn't answer. "Why didn't the asker give that?" and "Didn't anybody ask?" Well - I did.

Musical context tells us how to hear the chords, and also whether they should have been written differently. Think of the aug6 chord, where you hear a "dom7" both times. If it's going to F or Fm, it will be written C7, but if it's going to B or Bm, it will be written C(aug6) in whatever inversion.

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The third one is Cmaj7#5.
Is that the only possible way of seeing it? It is the same pattern as the other two.


You missed the OPs explanation: he picked these up from listening and transcribed. He can’t find them in his technique book but practices them in multiple octaves.


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Originally Posted by keystring
Nobody has said anything about my proposition of an alternate way of viewing these, nor has anyone picked up on my comment about context (we've not been given any - the OP probably doesn't know that it matters and nobody else has asked about it). I ran this by my teacher.

There are different ways of perceiving those chords. With the original two, they are both the same pattern or chord. The first can also be seen as A6 (A C# E F) - my appog.-slidey thing for the F. with the main chord as the A chord also had merit for how to hear it. But I was asked "What is the musical context? What do the measures before and after do?" which I couldn't answer. "Why didn't the asker give that?" and "Didn't anybody ask?" Well - I did.

Musical context tells us how to hear the chords, and also whether they should have been written differently. Think of the aug6 chord, where you hear a "dom7" both times. If it's going to F or Fm, it will be written C7, but if it's going to B or Bm, it will be written C(aug6) in whatever inversion.

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The third one is Cmaj7#5.
Is that the only possible way of seeing it? It is the same pattern as the other two.

I mentioned that I thought it was two separate chords - and I still think that.

It won't be found in a technique book because it's not an arpeggio, more of a melody for two hands to play.

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Originally Posted by dogperson
You missed the OPs explanation: he picked these up from listening and transcribed. He can’t find them in his technique book but practices them in multiple octaves.
Apparently I did, though I also wrote more than about that in the quote.

Then question to the OP - Does what got transcribed live within a context - within more things in the music? Would it be a possible to get a link to the music (recording), or the name of it?

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Originally Posted by fatar760
It won't be found in a technique book because it's not an arpeggio, more of a melody for two hands to play.

Probably with a walking bass to add context.


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Originally Posted by keystring
Quote
The third one is Cmaj7#5.
Is that the only possible way of seeing it? It is the same pattern as the other two.
Well, we were asked a simple question, 'What arpeggios are these?' This question has a simple and exact answer: these are arpeggiated third inversions of augmented major seventh chords F, Ab and C (with the second one in all likelihood transcribed incorrectly): Fmaj7#5/E, Abmaj7#5/G, Cmaj7#5/B

If we were given musical context for each example, there might have been a place for other speculations, but without context the answer seems clear.

There is no indication that G# in the second example may be considered an appoggiatura (a non-chord tone). It also concerns other examples.


I would also like to make some notes, considering that it's the Piano Teachers Forum and students may be reading it.

Originally Posted by keystring
The first can also be seen as A6 (A C# E F)
No, A6 chord is A C# E F#.

Originally Posted by fatar760
My first instinct was Fmaj7#5 too - but I'd probably think of it more as two separate chords: Fmaj#5 and then A Major.
There is no such conventional chord notation Fmaj#5, what you meant is called Faug.

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Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Originally Posted by fatar760
My first instinct was Fmaj7#5 too - but I'd probably think of it more as two separate chords: Fmaj#5 and then A Major.

There is no such conventional chord notation Fmaj#5, what you meant is called Faug.

You're quite right, this was a poor typo influenced by the Fmaj7#5. Hopefully my suggestion was still clear.

The OP mentioned a classical context, of which I've not seen this in a tech book; however, I wonder if this augmented-major 7 pattern appears in any of my jazz tech books.

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Originally Posted by fatar760
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Originally Posted by fatar760
My first instinct was Fmaj7#5 too - but I'd probably think of it more as two separate chords: Fmaj#5 and then A Major.

There is no such conventional chord notation Fmaj#5, what you meant is called Faug.

You're quite right, this was a poor typo influenced by the Fmaj7#5. Hopefully my suggestion was still clear.

Your suggestion is clear, but it has a flaw. The example consists of 16 notes. The sequence of Faug and A chords consists of only 6 notes, so the last 2 notes (F and E) of both first and second measures remain unattributed.

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Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Originally Posted by fatar760
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Originally Posted by fatar760
My first instinct was Fmaj7#5 too - but I'd probably think of it more as two separate chords: Fmaj#5 and then A Major.

There is no such conventional chord notation Fmaj#5, what you meant is called Faug.

You're quite right, this was a poor typo influenced by the Fmaj7#5. Hopefully my suggestion was still clear.

Your suggestion is clear, but it has a flaw. The example consists of 16 notes. The sequence of Faug and A chords consists of only 6 notes, so the last 2 notes (F and E) of both first and second measures remain unattributed.

But still part of a sequence involving Faug and A chords. Truth is that we don't know what happens afterwards as the bars are empty. Like I said, in a classical context I don't recognise the arp but in a jazz context I do: my first thought matched yours, and I think it's the most sage explanation BUT from a practical perspective I'd probably think of the former to negotiate my way through it.

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Originally Posted by fatar760
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Originally Posted by fatar760
My first instinct was Fmaj7#5 too - but I'd probably think of it more as two separate chords: Fmaj#5 and then A Major.

Your suggestion is clear, but it has a flaw. The example consists of 16 notes. The sequence of Faug and A chords consists of only 6 notes, so the last 2 notes (F and E) of both first and second measures remain unattributed.

But still part of a sequence involving Faug and A chords. Truth is that we don't know what happens afterwards as the bars are empty. Like I said, in a classical context I don't recognise the arp but in a jazz context I do: my first thought matched yours, and I think it's the most sage explanation BUT from a practical perspective I'd probably think of the former to negotiate my way through it.

The truth is that you would fail a theory exam with that kind of explanation.

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Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Originally Posted by fatar760
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Originally Posted by fatar760
My first instinct was Fmaj7#5 too - but I'd probably think of it more as two separate chords: Fmaj#5 and then A Major.

Your suggestion is clear, but it has a flaw. The example consists of 16 notes. The sequence of Faug and A chords consists of only 6 notes, so the last 2 notes (F and E) of both first and second measures remain unattributed.

But still part of a sequence involving Faug and A chords. Truth is that we don't know what happens afterwards as the bars are empty. Like I said, in a classical context I don't recognise the arp but in a jazz context I do: my first thought matched yours, and I think it's the most sage explanation BUT from a practical perspective I'd probably think of the former to negotiate my way through it.

The truth is that you would fail a theory exam with that kind of explanation.

Truth is it wouldn't be in a theory exam x

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I wouldn't think of it as an appoggiatura, because each note is equally 'salient'. Usually, an appoggiatura would occupy a "weak" beat. Here, since everything is uniform, each of the notes seem to hold equal "value", so it seems weird for one of them to asymmetrically be an approach tone.

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Originally Posted by fatar760
But still part of a sequence involving Faug and A chords. Truth is that we don't know what happens afterwards as the bars are empty. Like I said, in a classical context I don't recognise the arp but in a jazz context I do: my first thought matched yours, and I think it's the most sage explanation BUT from a practical perspective I'd probably think of the former to negotiate my way through it.
It would depend on the rhythm imo. If transcribed correctly, this doesn't suggest to me two separate chords at all. However, if it was a sequence of triplets, I might change my mind.

I can imagine this being asked in a theory exam, and a kid saying "that's not a chord!".

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Originally Posted by fatar760
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
The truth is that you would fail a theory exam with that kind of explanation.

Truth is it wouldn't be in a theory exam x

Chord identification is a common question on a theory exam.

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Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Originally Posted by fatar760
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
The truth is that you would fail a theory exam with that kind of explanation.

Truth is it wouldn't be in a theory exam x

Chord identification is a common question on a theory exam.

Which this isn't (either a chord or a theory exam).

Like I've said, I agree with you and acknowledged your correction. For the sake of argument, if it were a theory exam asking the student to 'name a chord given with the associated passage' I'd have said Fmajor7#5. Not quite sure why this conversation is getting so pedantic about a hypothetical situation - feel free to DM me if you wish to continue this further rather than hi-jack the thread.

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Originally Posted by fatar760
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Originally Posted by fatar760
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
The truth is that you would fail a theory exam with that kind of explanation.

Truth is it wouldn't be in a theory exam x

Chord identification is a common question on a theory exam.

Which this isn't (either a chord or a theory exam).

Like I've said, I agree with you and acknowledged your correction. For the sake of argument, if it were a theory exam asking the student to 'name a chord given with the associated passage' I'd have said Fmajor7#5. Not quite sure why this conversation is getting so pedantic about a hypothetical situation - feel free to DM me if you wish to continue this further rather than hi-jack the thread.

I don't hijack the thread at all. I just sincerely want you to understand why your suggestion and that approach in general is inappropriate. And it's not only about exams, it may negatively affect your playing, too. When you see a 4-notes pattern in a 4/4 meter it almost always requires a 1-in-4-notes accentuation. If you try to break a sequence of such 4-notes patterns into triads and perceive it as triads it will most likely also lead to improper accentuation. And it's harder to memorize. So why do weird things? If your first instinct tells you to recognize a 4-notes pattern as a 4-notes chord, just trust your instinct.

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Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
I don't hijack the thread at all. I just sincerely want you to understand why your suggestion and that approach in general is inappropriate. And it's not only about exams, it may negatively affect your playing, too. When you see a 4-notes pattern in a 4/4 meter it almost always requires a 1-in-4-notes accentuation. If you try to break a sequence of such 4-notes patterns into triads and perceive it as triads it will most likely also lead to improper accentuation. And it's harder to memorize. So why do weird things? If your first instinct tells you to recognize a 4-notes pattern as a 4-notes chord, just trust your instinct.

I acknowledged the correction many posts ago now, but that's still, seemingly, unrecognised.

Without more context, which is greatly lacking, I don't see any point inventing hypothetical situations. There's no accents marked in the piece - who knows where they may be? (please note this is a rhetorical question)

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Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
I see Fmaj7#5 and the second could be Abmaj7#5 if there was Ab instead of a G#.

Yes. It also is called an augmented major 7 chord.


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Originally Posted by fatar760
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
I don't hijack the thread at all. I just sincerely want you to understand why your suggestion and that approach in general is inappropriate. And it's not only about exams, it may negatively affect your playing, too. When you see a 4-notes pattern in a 4/4 meter it almost always requires a 1-in-4-notes accentuation. If you try to break a sequence of such 4-notes patterns into triads and perceive it as triads it will most likely also lead to improper accentuation. And it's harder to memorize. So why do weird things? If your first instinct tells you to recognize a 4-notes pattern as a 4-notes chord, just trust your instinct.

I acknowledged the correction many posts ago now, but that's still, seemingly, unrecognised.

Without more context, which is greatly lacking, I don't see any point inventing hypothetical situations. There's no accents marked in the piece - who knows where they may be? (please note this is a rhetorical question)
Ok. Excuse me if I was too persevering.

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Oh my... never thought this thread would go this far . Oh well. If you thought the first arpeggios were interesting you guys are gonna love this one... wink

[Linked Image]

It's one of the arpeggios used in the piano part on Evergreen at 2:35


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Originally Posted by EDV
Oh my... never thought this thread would go this far . Oh well. If you thought the first arpeggios were interesting you guys are gonna love this one... wink

[Linked Image]

It's one of the arpeggios used in the piano part on Evergreen at 2:35


I'm unable to 'ping-out' that piano part in my earphones, so I'll take it as correct.

The song is in A Major and the harmonic progression at that point reads:

B/A / / / | Bb/A / / / | A / / / |

So, assuming the run you're asking about happens in the first bar, I'd say it is a Bsus4 over an A bass.

Without knowing the key and chords though, calling the run an Emaj9 would have been tempting (despite its lack of 3rd)

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Originally Posted by fatar760
I'm unable to 'ping-out' that piano part in my earphones, so I'll take it as correct.

The piano part in that particular section is very faint so I also use the harmony that follows for reference:

[Linked Image]

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Originally Posted by EDV
Originally Posted by fatar760
I'm unable to 'ping-out' that piano part in my earphones, so I'll take it as correct.

The piano part in that particular section is very faint so I also use the harmony that follows for reference:

[Linked Image]

If that happens in the second bar of the section, then that would be a Bbsus4, before it resolves on the A Major.

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Some Sheena Easton now wink Last notes of the piano intro ( apologies for the incorrect way of writing it )

[Linked Image]

Piano intro taken from:


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OH, I just travelled memory lane and sang along to Evergreen and the next video posted, Almost over you. Not going to analyze notes just going to enjoy the music for now..


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Of course, we're all in it for the enjoyment ! But I'd also like to dive a little deeper and understand what I'm listening! I am a pianist myself by the way... even do some of my own arrangements and compositions... but do most of the latter instinctively, heavily relying on my musical ear and creativity.

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