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[quote=BruceD][quote=bennevis]Here is the greatest living Tchaikovsky pianist (and conductor), Михаи́л Васи́льевич Плетнёв playing the piece:
I rest my case.
That's not the piece in question!
Regards,
Do you really enjoy Pletnev's rendition of the "Russian Song"? Would you like to have the item like this in your own public concert? Can you anticipate any applause for this boredom?
Here is the greatest living Tchaikovsky pianist (and conductor), Михаи́л Васи́льевич Плетнёв playing the piece:
I rest my case.
Do you really enjoy Pletnev's rendition of the "Russian Song"? Would you like to have the item like this in your own public concert? Can you anticipate any applause for this boredom?
With just a little research, here is a somehow more fact based information. It would be good that people make a minimal amount of cross checking vs writing stories for which they have absolutely not a single factual evidence other than alleged statements.
Tchaikovsky in his opus 39 reused what he had compiled previously under the 50 russian folk song in 1868. The Russian song is in fact "Голова ль ты моя, головушка" (Oh my poor head). See below a YT extract which is notated exactly the same way already (number 2).
This is documented in any good urtext edition of the opus 39.
The 50 russian songs were not notated by Tchaikovski himself. In a letter to Balakirev 1868, he wrote that he borrowed 25 from Villebois collection (Konstantin Vilboa), changing only some harmonisation, and is asking Balakirev if he could borrow the other 25 from him.
The collection of Kanstantin Vilboa, 150 russian songs, Airs Nationales Russe, published by Jurgenson does contain that song as one can see in the extract from imslp (number 8): https://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Villebois,_Konstantin.
The notation of Vilboa is exactly the same as Tchaikovsky.
In addition Rimsky-Korsakov reused that same song "Голова ль ты моя, головушка" which he also borrowed from Vilboa in his collection of 100 russian song opus 24. Also available on imslp https://imslp.org/wiki/Collection_of_100_Russian_Folksongs%2C_Op.24_(Rimsky-Korsakov%2C_Nikolay)
There one can find the actual text of the song with the music where it is clear that the accent is on the first beat (I am native russian so I read fluently), also notated exactly like Tchaikovsky (song 33), though he also added a 3/4 version with an upbeat.
It is not clear if Vilboa did just an harmonization or also composed some of the tunes based on traditional russian songs he knew. Extract from wiki: "Vilboa wrote nearly 200 popular songs such as the duet "The seafarers" ("unfriendly is our sea.." - "Нелюдимо наше море..") recorded by Maxim Mikhailov. These songs remained popular, for instance being sung at home by Shostakovich's engineer father.[2] Vilboa's song collection 100 Russian National Songs (Сто русских народных песен Saint Petersburg 1860) was an anthology of melodies collected by playwright Alexander Ostrovsky on a River Volga steamer in 1856. This collection was used by, among other composers, Rimsky-Korsakov in his By the gate a pine tree was swaying and other songs. "
Ostrovsky was a very famous playwright but was not a musician, so though it is confirmed he did made a Volga trip in 1856, he likely notated the words mainly as the Volga boatmen songs.
With just a little research, here is a somehow more fact based information. It would be good that people make a minimal amount of cross checking vs writing stories for which they have absolutely not a single factual evidence other than alleged statements.
Tchaikovsky in his opus 39 reused what he had compiled previously under the 50 russian folk song in 1868. The Russian song is in fact "Голова ль ты моя, головушка" (Oh my poor head). See below a YT extract which is notated exactly the same way already (number 2).
This is documented in any good urtext edition of the opus 39.
The 50 russian songs were not notated by Tchaikovski himself. In a letter to Balakirev 1868, he wrote that he borrowed 25 from Villebois collection (Konstantin Vilboa), changing only some harmonisation, and is asking Balakirev if he could borrow the other 25 from him.
The collection of Kanstantin Vilboa, 150 russian songs, Airs Nationales Russe, published by Jurgenson does contain that song as one can see in the extract from imslp (number 8): https://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Villebois,_Konstantin.
The notation of Vilboa is exactly the same as Tchaikovsky.
In addition Rimsky-Korsakov reused that same song "Голова ль ты моя, головушка" which he also borrowed from Vilboa in his collection of 100 russian song opus 24. Also available on imslp https://imslp.org/wiki/Collection_of_100_Russian_Folksongs%2C_Op.24_(Rimsky-Korsakov%2C_Nikolay)
There one can find the actual text of the song with the music where it is clear that the accent is on the first beat (I am native russian so I read fluently), also notated exactly like Tchaikovsky (song 33), though he also added a 3/4 version with an upbeat.
It is not clear if Vilboa did just an harmonization or also composed some of the tunes based on traditional russian songs he knew. Extract from wiki: "Vilboa wrote nearly 200 popular songs such as the duet "The seafarers" ("unfriendly is our sea.." - "Нелюдимо наше море..") recorded by Maxim Mikhailov. These songs remained popular, for instance being sung at home by Shostakovich's engineer father.[2] Vilboa's song collection 100 Russian National Songs (Сто русских народных песен Saint Petersburg 1860) was an anthology of melodies collected by playwright Alexander Ostrovsky on a River Volga steamer in 1856. This collection was used by, among other composers, Rimsky-Korsakov in his By the gate a pine tree was swaying and other songs. "
Ostrovsky was a very famous playwright but was not a musician, so though it is confirmed he did made a Volga trip in 1856, he likely notated the words mainly as the Volga boatmen songs.
Thanks a lot for your interesting facts and links. I knew about the song "Голова ль ты моя, головушка". If you are a native Russian (why "russian" in this case, btw?) then it should not be a problem for you to read available versions of the lyrics of this particular song? Do you think that the story about decapitated dead body on the street is one that inspired Tchaikovsky to compose the "Russian Song" in his "Children's Album"? Does it correspond in any way with the character of the piece? It is about traditional, folk lyrics of the "Голова ль ты моя, головушка".
We can try the version of Surikov with the same result:
Отчего ж, скажи, головушка,
Бесталанной ты родилася,
Или матушка-покойница
В церкви богу не молилася?
❉❉❉❉
Нет! Соседи говорили мне,
Что была, вишь, богомольная…
Знать, сама собой сложилася
Жизнь ты горькая, бездольная!
❉❉❉❉
Another version of the lyrics is a poem of Delvig: "To the birdy that I deliberated from her cage". This is a tragic poem about lost personal freedom. Do you think that the subject of our discussion ("Russian Song") is related to this poem?
And the most important: Can you adjust technically in any way the words of any of these versions to the music of the "Russian song" from the album? It is obviously impossible.
Что ж теперь ты думу думаешь, Думу крепкую, тяжелую? Иль ты с сердцем перемолвилась, Иль одно вы с ним задумали? Иль прилука молодецкая Ни из сердца, ни с ума нейдет? Уж не вырваться из клеточки Певчей птичке конопляночке: Знать, и вам не видеть более Прежней воли с прежней радостью.
Do you really enjoy Pletnev's rendition of the "Russian Song"?
Yes, because he plays it like a song (- similar to the way I'd play it), not a clodhopping, brutally-accented whatever, like you play it.
Quote
Would you like to have the item like this in your own public concert?
I wouldn't play any of these Children's Album pieces in my concerts - they are pieces for children to learn, not like his Op.72, or even The Seasons.
Incidentally, I don't know what your beef is. Folksongs get re-interpreted and re-arranged through the years by various composers and singers (including folk-singers).
For instance, do you think that the early folk singers would use harmonies like this, by a great English composer?
or accompaniments like this?
....or perform them with a knowing archness like this?
(If you can understand the meaning behind the lyrics, you would grimace - or chuckle...... )
Fact is you did not read well my text. Tchaikowski did not compose the russian song in opus 39. He just copied what Vilboa had done. And Rimsky Korsakov published both the lyrics and the music together which shows that they are associated, if you would care to cross check. So your idea that some sort of song supposedly inspired Tchaikoswky is thus pure BS. In fact since almost all your points like Chopin fantaisie impromptu non existing slurs are pure inventions, you have a low credibility profile. The rest of your points i dont even understand what you are trying to say. Looks pretty confused to me. And your version even musically it is not very convincing.
Fact is that it is often the case that russian folk player do shift the tune, starting from different beats, but the accentuation remain constant. Some good example of that in Moussorgki pictures, promenade, bar 21 to 23.
BTW when Tchaikowski re harmonized the Vilboa version he actually westernized it. The original Vilboa version or the Rimsky K are both closer to a russian folk harmony. If you know something about russian folk harmony, you will see why.
If you have students, I am scared about what you are teaching them. But if you believe you are the only person on earth that plays correctly that little piece, I am happy to leave you with your illusions.
Sidokar You are going down a deep rabbit hole. Since you are not receiving direct replies, why don’t you let this go? I’ve seen it all before.
Dogperson, you are right. I felt it was necessary to at least inform about what was, to put it kindly, unverified facts. But further discussion seems useless at this point.
With just a little research, here is a somehow more fact based information. It would be good that people make a minimal amount of cross checking vs writing stories for which they have absolutely not a single factual evidence other than alleged statements.
Tchaikovsky in his opus 39 reused what he had compiled previously under the 50 russian folk song in 1868. The Russian song is in fact "Голова ль ты моя, головушка" (Oh my poor head). See below a YT extract which is notated exactly the same way already (number 2).
This is documented in any good urtext edition of the opus 39.
The 50 russian songs were not notated by Tchaikovski himself. In a letter to Balakirev 1868, he wrote that he borrowed 25 from Villebois collection (Konstantin Vilboa), changing only some harmonisation, and is asking Balakirev if he could borrow the other 25 from him.
The collection of Kanstantin Vilboa, 150 russian songs, Airs Nationales Russe, published by Jurgenson does contain that song as one can see in the extract from imslp (number 8): https://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Villebois,_Konstantin.
The notation of Vilboa is exactly the same as Tchaikovsky.
In addition Rimsky-Korsakov reused that same song "Голова ль ты моя, головушка" which he also borrowed from Vilboa in his collection of 100 russian song opus 24. Also available on imslp https://imslp.org/wiki/Collection_of_100_Russian_Folksongs%2C_Op.24_(Rimsky-Korsakov%2C_Nikolay)
There one can find the actual text of the song with the music where it is clear that the accent is on the first beat (I am native russian so I read fluently), also notated exactly like Tchaikovsky (song 33), though he also added a 3/4 version with an upbeat.
It is not clear if Vilboa did just an harmonization or also composed some of the tunes based on traditional russian songs he knew. Extract from wiki: "Vilboa wrote nearly 200 popular songs such as the duet "The seafarers" ("unfriendly is our sea.." - "Нелюдимо наше море..") recorded by Maxim Mikhailov. These songs remained popular, for instance being sung at home by Shostakovich's engineer father.[2] Vilboa's song collection 100 Russian National Songs (Сто русских народных песен Saint Petersburg 1860) was an anthology of melodies collected by playwright Alexander Ostrovsky on a River Volga steamer in 1856. This collection was used by, among other composers, Rimsky-Korsakov in his By the gate a pine tree was swaying and other songs. "
Ostrovsky was a very famous playwright but was not a musician, so though it is confirmed he did made a Volga trip in 1856, he likely notated the words mainly as the Volga boatmen songs.
I suppose this settles the discussion and makes it much clearer what Tchaikovsky was doing. And more, you found related recordings that I think put this into the right perspective to interpet what Tchaikovsky had in mind.
So it IS a folk song, and the vocals confirm the bar lines as written.
It even suggests that this is supposed for 4 voices, I assume choir. Brisk tempo.
So Tchaikovsky just transposed the song from G to F major and roughly kept the same harmonies but made it easier to play.
BTW what is the text about? Someone has his head hurting? Drank too much or so?
With just a little research, here is a somehow more fact based information. It would be good that people make a minimal amount of cross checking vs writing stories for which they have absolutely not a single factual evidence other than alleged statements.
Tchaikovsky in his opus 39 reused what he had compiled previously under the 50 russian folk song in 1868. The Russian song is in fact "Голова ль ты моя, головушка" (Oh my poor head). See below a YT extract which is notated exactly the same way already (number 2).
This is documented in any good urtext edition of the opus 39.
The 50 russian songs were not notated by Tchaikovski himself. In a letter to Balakirev 1868, he wrote that he borrowed 25 from Villebois collection (Konstantin Vilboa), changing only some harmonisation, and is asking Balakirev if he could borrow the other 25 from him.
The collection of Kanstantin Vilboa, 150 russian songs, Airs Nationales Russe, published by Jurgenson does contain that song as one can see in the extract from imslp (number 8): https://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Villebois,_Konstantin.
The notation of Vilboa is exactly the same as Tchaikovsky.
In addition Rimsky-Korsakov reused that same song "Голова ль ты моя, головушка" which he also borrowed from Vilboa in his collection of 100 russian song opus 24. Also available on imslp https://imslp.org/wiki/Collection_of_100_Russian_Folksongs%2C_Op.24_(Rimsky-Korsakov%2C_Nikolay)
There one can find the actual text of the song with the music where it is clear that the accent is on the first beat (I am native russian so I read fluently), also notated exactly like Tchaikovsky (song 33), though he also added a 3/4 version with an upbeat.
It is not clear if Vilboa did just an harmonization or also composed some of the tunes based on traditional russian songs he knew. Extract from wiki: "Vilboa wrote nearly 200 popular songs such as the duet "The seafarers" ("unfriendly is our sea.." - "Нелюдимо наше море..") recorded by Maxim Mikhailov. These songs remained popular, for instance being sung at home by Shostakovich's engineer father.[2] Vilboa's song collection 100 Russian National Songs (Сто русских народных песен Saint Petersburg 1860) was an anthology of melodies collected by playwright Alexander Ostrovsky on a River Volga steamer in 1856. This collection was used by, among other composers, Rimsky-Korsakov in his By the gate a pine tree was swaying and other songs. "
Ostrovsky was a very famous playwright but was not a musician, so though it is confirmed he did made a Volga trip in 1856, he likely notated the words mainly as the Volga boatmen songs.
I suppose this settles the discussion and makes it much clearer what Tchaikovsky was doing. And more, you found related recordings that I think put this into the right perspective to interpet what Tchaikovsky had in mind.
So it IS a folk song, and the vocals confirm the bar lines as written.
It even suggests that this is supposed for 4 voices, I assume choir. Brisk tempo.
So Tchaikovsky just transposed the song from G to F major and roughly kept the same harmonies but made it easier to play.
BTW what is the text about? Someone has his head hurting? Drank too much or so?
There is another great pianist - Arkady (Arcady) Sevidov. He plays the "Russian Song" in Anti-Tchaikovsky version as well.
In my original post I wrote that the "Russian Song" from the "Children's Album" by Tchaikovsky is not attractive neither for performers, nor for listeners. Both of them prefer not to play and not to listen to this boring song. I brought here a real fact that is well known to the numerous students of my great teacher V. Nielsen (read wiki) that even plain villagers protested against the written by Tchaikovsky version of the song.
I showed in my video the version of lyrics the villagers used to sing and my version of performing this song in accordance with this version and instructions of my teacher who learned from the villagers the folk version of performance of this song.
I brought here my teacher's recording of this song. I brought the recording of a great pianist Arcady Sevidov who performs the Anty-Tchaikovsky version of the song as well.
I did it because I have a huge experience of concert work and I know FOR SURE, that normal people (not brainwashed by music schools), our usual audience likes this versions more than Tchaikovsky's one.
All I got from my local opponents is that I am a very bad person and everyone should play the same boring version ALWAYS rejected by the audience and our students.
Judging from the name of this particular forum there should be pianists. Why does no one want to discuss this problem with the "Russian Song" in a normal for pianists practical way?
I invite my dear colleagues to change their pose of judges, policemen, prosecutors, investigators, etc., and take the position in front of their piano instead.
It would be much more interesting for all the readers of this forum to hear your own recordings of this piece from "Children's Album" and everyone will know immediately if you really know: how to perform this song?
[...] It would be much more interesting for all the readers of this forum to hear your own recordings of this piece from "Children's Album" and everyone will know immediately if you really know: how to perform this song?
I am not sure just how "much more interesting" multiple recordings by various PW members of this piece would be. This piece, somewhat innocuous compared to the wealth of great Romantic literature available for the piano, is of little consequence, even of little interest as you yourself have pointed out by indicating how few people perform it. If you say that member recordings of this piece prove or disprove that we "really know how to perform this song," you are in fact saying that only if we play it the way you want it played do we know how to perform it.
Since you appear fixed in your position regarding the interpretation of this piece, why should anyone indulge you with their performance?
You have obviously made your point several times; now let's move on.
[...] It would be much more interesting for all the readers of this forum to hear your own recordings of this piece from "Children's Album" and everyone will know immediately if you really know: how to perform this song?
I am not sure just how "much more interesting" multiple recordings by various PW members of this piece would be. This piece, somewhat innocuous compared to the wealth of great Romantic literature available for the piano, is of little consequence, even of little interest as you yourself have pointed out by indicating how few people perform it. If you say that member recordings of this piece prove or disprove that we "really know how to perform this song," you are in fact saying that only if we play it the way you want it played do we know how to perform it.
Since you appear fixed in your position regarding the interpretation of this piece, why should anyone indulge you with their performance?
You have obviously made your point several times; now let's move on.
Regards,
F.Liszt told that all the conversations about music have no more value than one well-described dinner. In our discussion, I stated my point of view verbally and musically.
You and other opponents protested against my point only verbally. It is ineffective and unnatural for pianists in my opinion. This particular song is so simple that almost everyone can sightread it.
In this case, what is the sense to spend tons of time on scientific or pseudo-scientific researches on the Internet instead of just playing and recording this song? It takes only several minutes and everyone understands immediately: what exactly do you mean?
@Vladimir - the amount of hyperbole you have brought into your rhetoric is really not helping your cause here.
Quote
Tchaikovsky's Children's Album is one of the most popular works in the world. Every pianist on the planet has probably played at least some pieces from this album.
This is not one of the most popular works in the world. It's not one of the most popular works for piano. I doubt that it's even Tchaikovsky's most popular work for piano, and Tchaikovsky is not even close to being one of the most popular piano composers. This intro casts great doubt on all the superlatives and rhetoric in the rest of your narrative, about which I know a great deal less.
Without diving into the rest of it, I will agree that Vladimir Nielsen's rendition of the Russian Song is much better than Pletnev's. Pletnev is a great pianist, but his recording of the Children's Album seems a bit uninspired. If Pletnev were to shift the barlines or "fix" his emphasis, that would not make his version as good as Nielsen's, which is much less lethargic in other ways — there's a lot more going on here than a difference in emphasis.
But your extreme rhetoric makes me want to argue with you (and I suspect makes others want to do the same). I sense that there's an interesting story behind what you are telling us, but it's lost in all the drama that has been dialled up to operatic proportions around brainwashing, protesting villagers, "disgusting" music, a misunderstanding in one of the most famous piano works of all time, etc., etc.
This was a very entertaining topic to read, and i enjoyed the story that you presented. however, i do think its a bit exaggerated.
To people familiar with the original lyrics (if such lyrics exists), i guess it might sound unnatural if played the way tchaikovsky notated it.
But to most people, i don't think it makes much of a difference whether you shift the bar line or not. playing it the way Tchaikovsky notated it does not make it a "musical nonsense" as you described it. (Infact, shifting stresses in a piece of music can sometimes be a tool for the composer to add interest. Not emphasizing the meter does not automatically make music incomprehensible).
All in all, it's a nice story that might have some musical truth to it. but in the grand scheme of piano music & literature, it's merely a fun anecdote.
This was a very entertaining topic to read, and i enjoyed the story that you presented. however, i do think its a bit exaggerated.
To people familiar with the original lyrics (if such lyrics exists), i guess it might sound unnatural if played the way tchaikovsky notated it.
But to most people, i don't think it makes much of a difference whether you shift the bar line or not. playing it the way Tchaikovsky notated it does not make it a "musical nonsense" as you described it. (Infact, shifting stresses in a piece of music can sometimes be a tool for the composer to add interest. Not emphasizing the meter does not automatically make music incomprehensible).
All in all, it's a nice story that might have some musical truth to it. but in the grand scheme of piano music & literature, it's merely a fun anecdote.
In two words: there is a problem with a "Russian Song" from Children's Album by Tchaikovsky. People do not like and avoid it. I (and some other pianists) know the solution that makes this song more attractive. I shared this solution with my colleagues publicly. And received in response an ocean of anger and indignation.
In two words: there is a problem with a "Russian Song" from Children's Album by Tchaikovsky. People do not like and avoid it. I (and some other pianists) know the solution that makes this song more attractive. I shared this solution with my colleagues publicly. And received in response an ocean of anger and indignation.
I think if you had said that, you would have gotten a much more generous response. There still would have been push back and room for skepticism or disagreement, but you would not have faced the "ocean of anger and indignation" that you encountered.
"In two words: there is a problem with a "Russian Song" from Children's Album by Tchaikovsky. People do not like and avoid it. I (and some other pianists) know the solution that makes this song more attractive. I shared this solution with my colleagues publicly. And received in response an ocean of anger and indignation." Quote
I think if you had said that, you would have gotten a much more generous response. There still would have been push back and room for skepticism or disagreement, but you would not have faced the "ocean of anger and indignation" that you encountered.[/quote]
And what did I say instead of this? Tell me or quote me, please. I just explained to the readers: where is my knowledge from?
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