2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
54 members (bilb, Dariusz D, Chris Pringle, CyberGene, Animisha, Coffee Man, Alfred La Fleur, brennbaer, chopin_r_us, 11 invisible), 609 guests, and 424 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
#3138212 07/17/21 09:38 AM
Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 3
I
ItoM_ Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
I
Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 3
Hi, I'm a beginner who is playing stuff like clementi sonatinas or schumann op 68. Im studying a lot of music theory but i cant still recognize every chord in the sheet ( maybe some cadences) so, when you were around my level of playing, could you recognize chords in music? Should i recognize them? Btw im studying a lot of 4 part writing so for me is much easier analyze music like bach chorales or some modern hymns but when i try to analyze some different kind of music I stuck. Thanks and sorry for bad english

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
ItoM_ #3138216 07/17/21 09:45 AM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,770
D
dmd Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,770
That sounds like a conversation you might wish to have with your teacher.

No teacher ? Then, I don't know.


Don

Kawai MP7SE, Edifier R1850DB Bookshelf speakers, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones
ItoM_ #3138225 07/17/21 10:13 AM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,365
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,365
I think a lot of adults try to learn theory too theoretically so to speak and separated from actual practice. What I mean is that you go through every bar and try to name all the chords by looking at each note, etc. That is not a good way to analyze pieces and it's a waste of time until you reach a certain level.

Instead of doing that you should connect the theory to what you actually hear. Where are the main sections? Where are phrases and cadences? Do the themes repeat with some variations? At the beginning you will probably be able to hear those things without necessarily being able to say precicely what chords are used. Over time you will develop that. One thing that helps is to practice your chords in all keys then when you see a chord and play it you can more easily identify it. But all of that takes time. It takes time to develop your ear to hear the chord changes. It takes time to practice the chords and be able to instantly recognize them. It takes time to internalize all of the theory and connect it to real music.

In short, it may seem counter-intuitive, but if you wish to learn theory should spend most of your time at the keyboard rather than with textbooks.

ItoM_ #3138227 07/17/21 10:18 AM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,365
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,365
Here's a video of Seth Monahan where he talks about this. Even if you don't understand all theory the concepts it's still good to watch. The main idea is as I wrote, try to be more practical. Don't do musical analysis like a robot going algorithmically through all the notes.


ItoM_ #3138231 07/17/21 10:37 AM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 2,238
S
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 2,238
I dont think there is any direct connection between your piano level and your theory level. Though there is a recommended progression path, for example ABRSM or RCM provide a detailled course of what you should know for each grade. But if you do more theory you will progress faster. Given that theory is essentially knowledge based vs practice oriented, each can go at a different pace. To recognize chords and their role easily, you need to have a decent understanding of theory. Clementi is about grade 3 RCM or ABRSM 2. At that level it is not expected that you can analyze a piece of music.

ItoM_ #3138240 07/17/21 11:12 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 30,840
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 30,840
My guess is your understanding of theory is very advanced for your playing level. There is certainly no harm in that.

ItoM_ #3138243 07/17/21 11:25 AM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,474
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,474
I analyze all my pieces before I start them, reading the score at the piano. I see what key it's in, check for any key changes, then look for triads and inversions, note the fingering and the notes, etc. Then I look for other things like 7th chords, dim, aug, etc. I do a lot of writing on the score before I even begin playing. That's how I progressed in theory rather than just doing my workbooks. If theory actually means something physical and musical, not just notes in a workbook, you get a whole lot more out of it.


Lisa
Chief Cook & Pot Scrubber @ Cunningham Piano Club 🎹
Cunningham Studio Grand & Yamaha CLP645

"I tell my piano the things I used to tell you." - Frederic Chopin
ItoM_ #3138305 07/17/21 02:28 PM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,985
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,985
In my school days I played violin in a group class. The teacher made the students learn theory separately. We learned to read music as we play but wouldn't sit down and analyze a piece.

The first things we come across is the Key & Time Signature. Based on the 2 you have some idea the notes that would be used and the beat.

Going to the next level people like myself tend to pick things up by ear as I'm playing. The first thing I'd pick up is whether a section of music or chords sounds happy or sad. This would tell me if it's major or minor without naming the notes or the chords.

The piece I'm working on has 3 sections. The first & last sections are in G major and begin with the same notes. The middle section is in E minor. The piece begins with a chord arpeggio BDG which is G chord - 2nd inversion. There are other chords in the piece like EGBE which is Em with an octave note added & G#BE which is E chord - 2nd inversion. A lot of places the composer have the same top (melody) note but with different notes under to give different sounding chords. I can be playing the melody line with two Es one after the other. The first E is in the stack GBE and the next E in the stack G#BE. The same top note E but you hear a different mood (sad & happy).

I spent a few weeks practicing the piece and picked up how it was composed by ear. I didn't have to read through the score like a book and try to understand what is happening in different parts of the music. Just playing it many times I know the sections that are similar repeating the same patterns with higher or lower notes.

ItoM_ #3140304 07/24/21 11:36 PM
Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 16
W
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
W
Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 16
as a beginner muscle/auditory memory are more important than theory, but you can study theory in a leisurely manner anytime.


mainly play metal/rock on guitar. mainly classical on (weighted) digital piano, but also interested in jazz/gospel/pop piano styles.
ItoM_ #3142504 08/01/21 10:00 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 613
J
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 613
Some of the problem could be: a) the notation isn't complete or has been altered to suit the level of the book, b) pieces don't always follow theory perfectly, or c) there could be things like borrowed chords that might not "make sense" at an elementary level. I took some adult theory courses and still have a hard time analyzing pieces that don't seem like they should be so complex. So, I just try to make sense of the key, changes, and whatever else I can, and accept that there will be some stuff I don't understand but will hopefully learn later.

I think that for some people, theory can get in the way, be too challenging, be a distraction, or whatever. But it suits my learning style and I improve in everything so much faster when my focus is on theory (which includes playing!) In contrast to the above post, I find that learning things like chord shapes through theory opens or loosens up my hands and helps with positional/location awareness.

ItoM_ #3142622 08/02/21 09:35 AM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 2,079
M
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 2,079
I think if you find jazz players they have quite good understanding of chords and composition. It's probably the easiest way to learn. You could learn simple chord progression for example. I remember learning 12 bar blues chord pattern in 5 minutes for example. I don't think music theory exams teach this practical theory. I did grade 5 theory and I think can tell the cadence but not much else. I do think it's very hard to analyse music as composers are normally quite advanced and each time period is different. You probably need to have lessons in this separately to go into depth. My understanding of music is much lower than my playing so maybe improvisation and composition will help you develop this ability to analyse other music. You can always listen to other people go through music scores and analyse them as there are good YouTube's of this.

Last edited by Moo :); 08/02/21 09:39 AM.
ItoM_ #3142629 08/02/21 09:52 AM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 2,079
M
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 2,079
This is a good channel to watch. Modern and classical pieces.


Moo :) #3142640 08/02/21 10:19 AM
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 59
R
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
R
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 59
Originally Posted by Moo :)
This is a good channel to watch. Modern and classical pieces.


This is beautiful, thank you for sharing! Great channel to add to my subscriptions.

ItoM_ #3142680 08/02/21 12:33 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,416

Silver Supporter until Jan 11 2012
1000 Post Club Member
Offline

Silver Supporter until Jan 11 2012
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,416
I think we all need to allow for the fact that different people relate to theory very differently. We all have different strengths and weaknesses, so I don't think it makes sense to declare what everyone should or shouldn't do.

As someone who's always enjoyed coding and higher mathematics, I found theory came very easily to me once I sat down to study it (I used college level theory & harmony textbooks). The same for reading music, as it's just another game of interpreting/manipulating abstract symbols that represent something very different (just like coding).

So while I found it very difficult to remember pieces without sheet music at the beginning, once I began analyzing my simple beginner pieces (a great place to start because they're so simple), I not only remembered them at the piano, but was able to practice them on an imaginary piano in my mind (on transit, or when I had insomnia, for example).

But I don't think this would be useful/pleasant/doable for everyone. I don't think it's helpful to make universal statements, as our minds all work so differently.


Please step aside. You're standing in your own way.

Moderated by  BB Player 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Player pianos
by Selencious - 09/20/21 06:52 AM
What's this bit do?
by chopin_r_us - 09/20/21 03:14 AM
Ivers and Pond Full Upright vs Steinway K52
by Pianolance - 09/19/21 11:25 PM
could you judge my playing please.
by daoc2009 - 09/19/21 09:31 PM
Which great contemporary composers are great pianists?
by pianoloverus - 09/19/21 08:56 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics209,199
Posts3,133,681
Members102,774
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5