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Yes, and the digital amplifier with digital effects to emulate a tube amp in overdrive would be evaluated by how close its sound is to the real thing, same as with a digital piano.

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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
To sound like an acoustic piano, there are mainly two issues : the tone generator and the restitution.

I think that the main bottleneck are the speakers. The sound of an AP comes from the footprint of the sounboard and to a lesser extent the case/frame. Even a high end hybrid with multiple speakers can only approximate the AP's sound output because that sound is coming only from those point sources. You can't cheat physics.

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Originally Posted by ADWyatt
At about the beginning of the 21st Century I saw an ad for the most amazing camera ever made for the everyday consumer. It was from Nikon, and it sported an amazing 3 megapixels. No, it couldn't equal the quality of my little Minolta 35mm film camera, which was equivalent to 6.1 mp, but it was cool, and only cost around $3,000 or so.

Two decades later, long after 35mm film has bit the dust, I currently own the 50.6 mp Canon 5DsR digital single-lens reflex camera, which I bought on sale brand-new for $1,499. But owning the camera by itself doesn't do it. Taking full advantage of digital, I have an ultra-powerful computer that has the best development and enhancement software that consumers can buy, from companies such as Adobe, On1, Skylum and Topaz. Does digital make much of a difference here? Let's take just one small example...

With my Minolta, shooting in low-light conditions with anything even slightly moving required 400 ASA film, showing immense grain that no photo lab could possibly remove. Grain just went with the territory. The 5DsR, with 50 mp stuffed inside a full-frame sensor, can show noticeable digital noise at an ISO as low as 1600. At a setting of 12,800 the noise is beyond awful. But that's not a problem in the world of digital. Noise-reduction programs, such as DxO Deep Prime, Topaz DeNoise and On1 NoNoise not only remove all noise and fringing, but rebuild the image to look sharper than the original file. And as for the creative manipulation of photo images, comparing film to digital is like comparing a paper airplane to the world's most modern passenger jet.

The point I'm making here is that digital is totally open-ended, while mechanical processes are limited. This applies to digital pianos as well, although for the time being it only holds true for the home market. But along that line, when I can afford the successor of the Kawai CA99/79 series, which should be released perhaps in the next two years, I will buy a DP whose sampled/simulated grand piano tones will be more appealing than tones from an acoustic upright.

The math, then, is quite simple. Digital has nowhere to go but up; acoustic has nowhere to go...at all.
I agree in principle, but a minor quibble is that images from 35mm film are higher in quality than 6mp digital, and 20 years ago there were fine-grained 400 ASA films. It takes a 3000x5000 pixel scan to capture a 35mm image, or about 15mp. The convenience and immediate feedback of digital imaging is what all but killed 35mm film. It is still used some-- I just shot several rolls myself.

For large format images, say 4x5 film format, film is still highly competitive.

But if a digital piano obsoletes acoustic pianos, I expect the first place it would happen is in the concert hall. The cost of a 9' piano provides an ample asset amount for the sound system that will be needed. This is probably the opposite of the order of defeat of film.

We already are there with organs. Very few people haul actual B3's around any more, and churches with fully digital organs are not uncommon. $3-5K is enough to have a phenomenal digital "pipe" organ at home.

Who knows how long it will take with pianos.

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Actually I would revise that and say the first place acoustic pianos will disappear from is the recording studio.

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Hello,

Originally Posted by Sweelinck
For large format images, say 4x5 film format, film is still highly competitive.

Fujifilm Provia 100F 4x5 provides insane image quality and color fidelity, and scans beautifully to 80MP images.

After some TLC, these images can be printed in tremendous quality without any print size limits.

My go-to method and material, yay! 😋

As for pianos, I have yet to find a digital that truly makes acoustic instruments obsolete. There's something in even battered old pianos (as long as they're still playable), that surpasses the satisfaction and connection to the here and now digitals give. In my experience.

Cheers and happy playing -- either way,

HZ

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Stop apply the transition from analogue to digital in photography into piano world!
Digital photography could have been developed without any analogue cameras, if just the CCD or a CMOS would have been invented before light sensitive film.
But digital pianos could not be developed without acoustic ones. Where to get the samples from? How should a digital piano sound?


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Hello,

Originally Posted by Wie Waldi
Stop apply the transition from analogue to digital in photography into piano world! Digital photography could have been developed without any analogue cameras, if just the CCD or a CMOS would have been invented before light sensitive film.
But digital pianos could not be developed without acoustic ones. Where to get the samples from? How should a digital piano sound?

Sharp observation, good perspective!

Cheers and happy playing -- either way,

HZ

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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
We already are there with organs. Very few people haul actual B3's around any more, and churches with fully digital organs are not uncommon. $3-5K is enough to have a phenomenal digital "pipe" organ at home.
.

You really think so? A recording of a digital piano can well resemble the real thing if it's tuning is . . . .attuned. A pipe organ, digital, can well do the same.
But playing live? Where's the woodwork shaking and rattling vibrations? You think the congegation wouldn't notice?
That rumbling bass that rents the senses assunder, transcending everything else will assuredly not be thwarted!

And a 32 foot pipe would need a 32 inch speaker or three in an enclosure the size of a small church.
What fun. But playing a digital organ is a most depressing thought!


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Not sure how a digital camera relates to a digital piano, but for the rest, your argument hold absolutely no water.

A digital camera is completely based on a analog camera.

If CCD would have been invented first...seriously. What kind of logic is that.

Sorry. I should delete this, but I am too pissed off.

Ron


Originally Posted by Wie Waldi
Stop apply the transition from analogue to digital in photography into piano world!
Digital photography could have been developed without any analogue cameras, if just the CCD or a CMOS would have been invented before light sensitive film.
But digital pianos could not be developed without acoustic ones. Where to get the samples from? How should a digital piano sound?

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Hundreds of posts ... too many ...

I have to conclude that now is NOT the time to stop comparing acoustic with digital.

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Originally Posted by ikkiyikki
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
To sound like an acoustic piano, there are mainly two issues : the tone generator and the restitution.

I think that the main bottleneck are the speakers. The sound of an AP comes from the footprint of the sounboard and to a lesser extent the case/frame. Even a high end hybrid with multiple speakers can only approximate the AP's sound output because that sound is coming only from those point sources. You can't cheat physics.

But even if you use headphones, the recording coming from an acoustic piano (a nice piano, nice room and nice mics) is still much better than any digital vst. Obviously if you have a bad piano, a bad room and bad mics, the digital vst will sound better.

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Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
We already are there with organs. Very few people haul actual B3's around any more, and churches with fully digital organs are not uncommon. $3-5K is enough to have a phenomenal digital "pipe" organ at home.
.

You really think so? A recording of a digital piano can well resemble the real thing if it's tuning is . . . .attuned. A pipe organ, digital, can well do the same.
But playing live? Where's the woodwork shaking and rattling vibrations? You think the congegation wouldn't notice?
That rumbling bass that rents the senses assunder, transcending everything else will assuredly not be thwarted!

And a 32 foot pipe would need a 32 inch speaker or three in an enclosure the size of a small church.
What fun. But playing a digital organ is a most depressing thought!

32 foot pipes are only used in cathedrals and churches of similar size. I agree that would be a stretch for a speaker system. But certainly a tonewheel organ has been fully replaced, and some small churches use digital organs. They may not install the sound system needed to replicate the sound of a pipe organ, but they could if they chise to do so. Cost would not be prohibitive relative to a pipe organ.

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Originally Posted by ronlefebvre
Not sure how a digital camera relates to a digital piano, but for the rest, your argument hold absolutely no water.

A digital camera is completely based on a analog camera.

If CCD would have been invented first...seriously. What kind of logic is that.

Sorry. I should delete this, but I am too pissed off.

Ron


Originally Posted by Wie Waldi
Stop apply the transition from analogue to digital in photography into piano world!
Digital photography could have been developed without any analogue cameras, if just the CCD or a CMOS would have been invented before light sensitive film.
But digital pianos could not be developed without acoustic ones. Where to get the samples from? How should a digital piano sound?

It wasn't my analogy, but analogies are just that, ie not something to be compared to the last microscopic detail. Of course there are differences. That's why it is an analogy.

I expect to have an acoustic piano for as long as I have the ability to play it.

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Rodgers has been combining digital organs and pipes in the same organ for years. The organist sits at the console, activates stops for pipes and digital engines and plays the combined organ. Most congregants, won't know which sounds come from pipes and which are digital.

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Rodgers has been combining digital organs and pipes in the same organ for years. The organist sits at the console, activates stops for pipes and digital engines and plays the combined organ. Most congregants won't know which sounds come from pipes and which are digital.

https://www.churchkeyboard.com/organ-solution-pipedigital-hybrid/

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Quote
And a 32 foot pipe would need a 32 inch speaker or three in an enclosure the size of a small church.
Why would that be?

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Here you can read about the subwoofer array that was installed in a church in Berlin to get deeper bass from the organ than the pipes were capable of.

https://blog.teufelaudio.com/subwoofers-organ-kaiser-wilhelm-memorial-church/

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A digital piano is not an acoustic piano.

However:

The action on my digital piano is just as good as that on a Steinway D, Shigeru Kawai, or Bosendorfer. Because, well, it is the action from a Shigeru Kawai (Kawai NV10).

The Nv10 combined with Pianoteq was good enough for me to prepare 100% on it (zero acoustic pianos) for amateur festivals and competitions, and transition flawlessly to 9ft concert grands when I was at the actual festival. Playing on the concert grands felt just like playing on the NV10.

The Nv10's action is good enough where I simply never have to think about it regardless of what rep I am playing (chopin etudes, romantic concertos, etc).

The only area a NV10 lacks compared to an acoustic piano is in volume. When I sit down at an acoustic piano (especially a 9ft grand) it takes me a minute or two to calibrate my dynamics to adjust for the louder acoustic instrument.

So no, a digital piano is not an acoustic. But when it comes to the action, playability, and how it acts as an instrument, frankly the NV10 is just as good or better in many ways. And due to the superb action, it is certainly better than most mediocre acoustic grands.

The same cannot be said of a normal digital piano...anyone saying the VPC action is 90% of an acoustic grand probably doesn't have very much time on both of them, or doesn't play demanding repertoire. I wish that was the case - I could have saved a lot of money - but it's simply not.

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If someone wanted to pay for it, long unlooped 24 bit or DSD multichannel samples could be collected for a 9' piano in a hall, both direct sound sampled for front channels, and reflected sound sampled for side and rear samples. A high end sound system could be installed with front speakers at points of origin, and rear and side speakers at points of reflection, each to play the channel that sampled sound coming from those points.

This would create a very high tech digital piano for the hall. A midi controller like the NV10 or a subsequent generation hybrid controller would activate the sound.

We have the technology today to build this. I don't know what it would cost, but certainly 6 figures in USD. How good would it be? I think it could be closer to the acoustic on the stage than many may realize. But it would be a high risk project-- if it was clearly inferior and cost $200K, someone will have egg in their face. Yamaha may be the only company with deep enough pockets to take the risk, and the technical know-how to attempt it.

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Don't confuse a 32-foot organ pipe, which needs that size for its resonance ...
... with a speaker cone, which ideally does NOT resonate.
Originally Posted by peterws
A 32 foot pipe would need a 32 inch speaker or three in an enclosure the size of a small church.

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