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Originally Posted by Frédéric L

I suppose the “softer/harder side” is not the the right expression : there is only a single point of impact.

However, the harder the note is hit, the deeper the hammer is striked which makes the hammer harder.


Yes, but should not that be accounted for in the sampling? It's a major component of timbre. No modern DPs use a p sample and simply increase the volume to make it an f strike (looking at you, Kurzweil CUP2).


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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Yes, but should not that be accounted for in the sampling? It's a major component of timbre. No modern DPs use a p sample and simply increase the volume to make it an f strike (looking at you, Kurzweil CUP2).


It explains why we need multiple samples. If layers are not blended, we will need multiple of them to avoid to near velocity levels to sound too different. Some VST (EWQL Bechstein for example) seem to behave badly about it.

I suppose sampled DP to use nowadays a limited set of samples and blend them to avoid such gaps. (My DP is 12years old and have no blending of its 3 levels... and the difference between levels is important).


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Originally Posted by Frédéric L

I suppose sampled DP to use nowadays a limited set of samples and blend them to avoid such gaps. (My DP is 12years old and have no blending of its 3 levels... and the difference between levels is important).


I'm sure modern DPs will variably blend samples (and they can get away with fewer velocity layers this way). I've never looked into whether sampled VSTs do, especially the ones with 20-100+ layers. Btw, the old CUP2 also had only 3 levels, non-blended. And the timbre change is startlingly obvious, even to non-audiophiles. It's good to be past that time in the technology curve.


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I finally listened to all the audio files with my headphones on.

A few phrases and the chords at the end sound better with the Garritan CFX, but the overall the piece sounds better with the N1X. There just seems to be more expression and feeling that comes through in the playing. The Garritan feels more distant and like a recording. The N1X feels like I'm sitting right there at the bench with you and I can see your arms and hands sinking into the keys to create the dynamic expressions. I feel like I connect more with you emotionally while listening to the N1X.

N1X all the way.
Garritan will suffice if you don't have an N1X.
Pianoteq...neither of the sounds appeal to me.

God Bless,
David


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Somebody linked to this thread from another thread and so I listened again to my performances, long after I’ve forgotten them. Well, the Garritan CFX recording is simply the best sounding piano. For some reason just listening to the N1X (since I have no fresh memory on how I felt when playing each piano) makes it sound a tiny bit Pianoteq-ish in the sustain. It’s of course closer to Garritan rather than Pianoteq but I can’t close my ears and just reject what I hear smile However when I count in the playability, the N1X is incomparable. Which is also why people sometimes prefer Pianoteq compared to other software pianos although they admit the recorded sound isn’t perfect.

Last edited by CyberGene; 07/07/19 08:37 AM.

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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Somebody linked to this thread from another thread and so I listened again to my performances, long after I’ve forgotten them. Well, the Garritan CFX recording is simply the best sounding piano. For some reason just listening to the N1X (since I have no fresh memory on how I felt when playing each piano) makes it sound a tiny bit Pianoteq-ish in the sustain. It’s of course closer to Garritan rather than Pianoteq but I can’t close my ears and just reject what I hear smile However when I count in the playability, the N1X is incomparable. Which is also why people sometimes prefer Pianoteq compared to other software pianos although they admit the recorded sound isn’t perfect.


Twas me, I remembered your post---liked it a lot.

Really highlighted where Pianoteq is weak i.e., in legato, whereas so many Pianoteq performances are fast and cover up the metallic twang.

However, it's worth noting that some people (mainly Phil) make very nice recordings with Pianoteq that seem flattering in comparison to others (maybe with better setup):



Kind regards,

Doug.

Last edited by Doug M.; 07/07/19 09:21 AM.

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I think if you were to re-record the N1X using the same amount of reverb as the Garritan had we would struggle to hear much if any difference. It isn't, in my opinion, a fair comparison. But, the reverb in the N1X may not sound as well as the Garritan's reverb which can affect the sound too. Consider re-recording the Garritan with less reverb to match the default N1X of 5 instead?

Reverb really does trick the ear into hearing different things to different people. I used reverb extensively in my guitar playing to very good results, without it sounding like it had reverb at all. It impacts the midrange more than we think, in a good way.


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^ Very good point about the reverb! Thanks. I’ll do another comparison when I have time and will try to also anonymize it this time wink


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Hi Guys,
By all means go for more comparisons. I think Phill Best might be doing this as well if he has the time. But in my heart of hearts I have a feeling that it probably won’t definitively resolve the current differences in sound perception. On the other hand it’s good fun and provides welcome relief from the loneliness of practicing😀

Paul h


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Originally Posted by HwyStar
I think if you were to re-record the N1X using the same amount of reverb as the Garritan had we would struggle to hear much if any difference. It isn't, in my opinion, a fair comparison.


just in case you weren't aware, most people don't run CFX with any revert on at all. It's all in the ambient mic setup which provides the absolutely natural reverb of the Abbey Road studios where the CFX recorded. This point has little to do with CFX or pianoteq at all, and more about the insufficiency of artificially generated reverb, IMHO. It does, however, make it such that CFX may not suitable or preferable for some people who really like or need a more dry piano sound.


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What I hear clearly is that the N1X uses just the usual sample-based digital piano engines, so you have some nice attacks but you have looping for sustained notes... and it's just in the sustained long notes (like the last chords in that piece) that you hear all the limits of this old technology (that they stubbornly continue to use in today digital pianos because it can work well on very cheap little single-boards that maybe cost less than 50$).

When you play a sustained chord on an actual digital piano sample-based, after a while you feel the digital nature of the sound because the looped parts. When you play a sustained chord on a high-quality piano VST (and even more on an real acoustic), you hear the unlooped notes intertwine beautifully, creating a complex, detailed and breathing, live, harp sound.

Pianoteq should not suffer from this problem, because it generates the sound algorithmically, yet it still sounds too digital to me.

I don't know how much is good the Garritan CFX playability, but to me, as a listener, its natural, unlooped sound is on another level when compared to the N1X and Pianoteq too.

Anyway, as I expected, the attack part of the notes played by the N1X to me is a little better than the attack generated by the Pianoteq engine which sometimes I feel a little strange.

And the quality of the reverb in the Garritan is excellent too.

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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Well, the Garritan CFX recording is simply the best sounding piano.... However when I count in the playability, the N1X is incomparable.


Hi Cybergene, could you expound on this? I have a Yamaha P-515 (and am looking at the N1X) and am thinking of purchasing Garritan CFX Full. After listening to the samples again I now prefer the Garritan CFX, but is the playability considerably worse with it? Which sound do you normally use for your N1X?


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Playability of the N1X’s native sound is the best. However CFX isn’t much worse. It’s only the slight subtleties of pedaling, repedaling and half-pedaling that (despite being implemented great for a sampled VST) are still lagging behind. But the timbral realism makes up for it to a degree.


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Has anybody who is a user of both an N1X and the Garritan CFX library tried recording a MIDI file with the N1X (to a USB drive, just listening live to the sampled CFX within the N1X) and then opening and playing that MIDI file back via Garritan CFX? Does this work?

I realize that one would ideally prefer to play the Garritan CFX live to respond to whatever nuances it has, but I'm wondering if the above situation can produce a workable enough result.

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I find that adding EastWest Spaces II convolutional reverb drastically improves the realism to both CFX and Pianoteq. Not sure if they have a trial version for you to play with but I think it's worth every penny.

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Originally Posted by Harpuia
Maybe the smooth release of N1X also matches my preference. The key-off velocity will result in different characteristic of the notes. There is some nuance in the first recording that I just didn’t feel in other three. I couldn’t describe it very well but when playing acoustic pianos, some notes sound lazy like feather and some other notes sound like.a pin. N1X doesn’t not send key off to pianoteq so it’s not there in pianoteq.

Hi Harpuia,

I've played N1X in a Store with Pianoteq 7.4.2, and Steinway HB Player wide settings :

you can use the aftertouch of N1X in advanced midi settings in Pianoteq, and Damper duration (or smooth release) can depend on aftertouch. (just assign new midi aftertouch settings to key action damper duration in Pianoteq)


I liked a lot N1X, because the N1X send note on at velocity 1 as soon as the damper is lifted (as soon half a key is pressed (or half hammer travel) like recommanded in real Grand regulation manual)

It's very realistic midi behaviour. Other DP send a silent midi note on at velocity 1 after let off... and it's Wrong.

N1X is very realistic in hammer/ damper duration simuation / lifted. (NV10/NV10S can't do this)

Regards,

Olivier F.

Last edited by owfrappier; 09/13/21 12:22 PM.

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To be more precise, Pianoteq Standard has a damper duration setting (action menu according to the manual). Not Pianoteq Stage !

Since I have a N1X, I will be more interested in purchasing the upgrade, but the N1X sound by itself is very good : it is not impossible I will wait a promotion.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 09/13/21 03:00 PM.

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I have get the Standard Trial Pianoteq and managed to set the assignment aftertouch-damper position. Easy, but we have to know the trick !!!

It is not available on Pianoteq Stage !

Last edited by Frédéric L; 09/13/21 03:25 PM.

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After trying, I am not that convinced… and the aftertouch you can assign on Pianoteq is the Channel Pressure, not the Polyphonic Aftertouch sent by the N1X. Have I missed a point ?


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I think I will read http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...and-midi-dialect-same-as-disklavier.html on this forum and try the Disklavier XP setting ! And this mode is available on Pianoteq Stage…

Last edited by Frédéric L; 09/13/21 04:20 PM.

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