2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
50 members (brdwyguy, David Boyce, An Old Square, deafital, claburo, 36251, 15 invisible), 586 guests, and 420 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 229
oldMH Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 229
We paid and released the tuner. Nice elderly man, but he won't be invited back. One surprising thing was that he actually plays piano and thought it sounded "good". He may have tuned by ear for decades, but seems to have lost it now. So, we pulled out a tuning wrench and spent a couple hours tweaking it and now it is much better. Didn't make a recording for you all.

I was surprised to learn that some of you technicians consider tuning each note independently of all others is a reasonable approach. I have never seen another tuner do it. It certainly didn't work here.

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 202
G
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
G
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 202
There are many approaches to tuning that work perfectly well. Tuning each note separately to an ETD is one such approach. It would certainly appear that the technician you hired did not do a great job. That does not necessarily mean, however, that the method he used was at fault.
Some technicians start at A4, set a temperament, tune aurally and do a great job. Some start at A4, tune aurally and do a lousy job. The same can be said of those tuning electronically. A highly skilled technician may be able to use various approaches and still end up with a great tuning.

Last edited by Gerry Johnston; 09/06/21 09:10 AM.

Gerry Johnston, Registered Piano Technician
Haverhill, MA
(978) 372-2250
www.gjpianotuner.com
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 5,480
H
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
H
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 5,480
We can’t know whether the tuner did it right and you just spoiled the tuning by tweaking it and it is just you that think it is better. Maybe your old tuner was tuning a temperament other than equal and you were accustomed to it.

Without a recording your comments are all speculative.

And it is also arrogant and over the line to talk about tuners who use an ETD.

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,680
G
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,680
Tuner says it sounds good I’ll take his word for it.
Client prefers to complain on a public forum as opposed to working with tuner is weird, not certain what is expected of the techs here that try to help people.
DIY fix it yourself over 30 years experience?
I agree, without a recording I’ll go with the tuners opinion.


RPT
PTG Member
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,465
P
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,465
Originally Posted by oldMH
I was surprised to learn that some of you technicians consider tuning each note independently of all others is a reasonable approach. I have never seen another tuner do it. It certainly didn't work here.

This can ONLY be done with an ETD. It was pioneered by the late Dr. Al Sanderson who invented the AccuTuner. However, it must be checked and rechecked over and over while tuning. Things rarely stay perfectly put on a once over pass. If one note "slips" it adversely affects at least 6 immediate intervals and then extends to extrapolated intervals from there. If two notes move and go undetected...well you can do the math. This is especially true if one is moving things any more than extremely slightly.

Analog tuners (good ones) are constantly checking and rechecking what they've already done because everything they do relates back to what they've already done. An inexperienced ETD user may make assumptions about his stability (especially if having tuned analog for a long time) and not bother to go back and check. The problem is that the body mechanics of setting tuning pins is slightly different tuning digitally vs analog (don't ask me to explain...its just different), so though it is assumed things stayed put, it ain't necessarily so. Going back and checking involves an entire run through (and technically retuning)...not fun. Good, experienced digital tuners check and recheck both aurally and digitally as they go and do not fall into this trap.

I am a little put out by the overall tactic and attitude displayed here by the OP and I feel an apology is in order. The normal order of events when one is unhappy with work done by a hired individual is to take it up with that person (or firm) and try to resolve it privately before making unsubstantiated claims and insinuations on a public forum such as this.

My .02

Peter Grey Piano Doctor


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 202
G
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
G
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 202
Originally Posted by P W Grey
Originally Posted by oldMH
I was surprised to learn that some of you technicians consider tuning each note independently of all others is a reasonable approach. I have never seen another tuner do it. It certainly didn't work here.

This can ONLY be done with an ETD. It was pioneered by the late Dr. Al Sanderson who invented the AccuTuner. However, it must be checked and rechecked over and over while tuning. Things rarely stay perfectly put on a once over pass. If one note "slips" it adversely affects at least 6 immediate intervals and then extends to extrapolated intervals from there. If two notes move and go undetected...well you can do the math. This is especially true if one is moving things any more than extremely slightly.

Analog tuners (good ones) are constantly checking and rechecking what they've already done because everything they do relates back to what they've already done. An inexperienced ETD user may make assumptions about his stability (especially if having tuned analog for a long time) and not bother to go back and check. The problem is that the body mechanics of setting tuning pins is slightly different tuning digitally vs analog (don't ask me to explain...its just different), so though it is assumed things stayed put, it ain't necessarily so. Going back and checking involves an entire run through (and technically retuning)...not fun. Good, experienced digital tuners check and recheck both aurally and digitally as they go and do not fall into this trap.

I am a little put out by the overall tactic and attitude displayed here by the OP and I feel an apology is in order. The normal order of events when one is unhappy with work done by a hired individual is to take it up with that person (or firm) and try to resolve it privately before making unsubstantiated claims and insinuations on a public forum such as this.

My .02

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

Ditto:


Gerry Johnston, Registered Piano Technician
Haverhill, MA
(978) 372-2250
www.gjpianotuner.com
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,994
A
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,994
I think there are some oversensitive reactions coming from some techs on this matter. The OP did not name the tuner concerned, so nobody's reputation has taken a hit. He's asking a question based on his current level of understanding on the matter. If anything, it is the OP who is being shamed in this thread. I don't think it was such an egregious question - regardless of whether he has unfairly judged the tuner or not. The fact is, the tuner was never identified, so this can be treated as a thought-exercise for all it really matters. I also think any customer is entitled to discontinue working with any technician. In my early years, before I learned to tune my own pianos and change strings, I witnessed some sloppy work from some techs whom I didn't feel compelled to invite back. It wasn't incumbent on me to give somebody who did substandard work another chance. I cut my losses and found people with more attention to detail.

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 5,480
H
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
H
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 5,480
Originally Posted by P W Grey
...an apology is in order....

+1

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 5,480
H
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
H
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 5,480
Some comments by OP:

Quote
I check the RPT guild and found a guy with 30+ years working on and tuning pianos. Chatted on the phone and he seemed to know what he was talking about.

A tuner that knows what he is talking about?

Quote
Is that how members of this guild are taught to tune a piano?

Really?

Quote
We paid and released the tuner. Nice elderly man, but he won't be invited back.

Paid and released? Nice elderly man?

Quote
He may have tuned by ear for decades, but seems to have lost it now. So, we pulled out a tuning wrench and spent a couple hours tweaking it and now it is much better.

We?

Quote
I was surprised to learn that some of you technicians consider tuning each note independently of all others is a reasonable approach. I have never seen another tuner do it. It certainly didn't work here.

Some of you technicians?

Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,020
Bronze Subscriber
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
Bronze Subscriber
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,020
OP said he left it six months to acclimatise. He did not say how long before the start of that process had it been previously tuned. So it was at least six months and had involved movers and transport. My assumption is that the piano may have required more than a single visit by a tuner, young or old, regardless of aural or ETD tuning. When the tuner was still present it appears that the op did not discuss the end result before 'letting the tuner go'. Perhaps the OP thought that the RPT was using a $5 iphone tuner app. Apart from hardware ETD the OP may not be aware that there are software ETDs that cost $1000.
I tune my piano using PianoMeter from A0 to C8 one note at a time after which I tune the choirs aurally Doing this regularly I seldom need to do an 88 note second pass. I just play tunes in every key which highlights which notes I need to adjust.
Ian
Reached my 3000 posts yippie


I'm all keyed up
2016 Blüthner Model A
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,235
E
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,235
Greetings,
I regularly tune from A0 to C8 and my tuning has been accepted for recording and performance by a number of internationally known names, which I will not drop here. Names that include singers and instrumentalists that have reputations as being overly fussy.

The ETD is nothing more than a tool, and the results depend on how it is used. The ear is the same, though it cannot be used to cumulatively refine a tuning like an ETD and the ear cannot make the sub-cent corrections to hitA-440 dead on the nose with clear and consistent triple octaves on a single pass tuning when sections of the piano are 3-4 cents off pitch. I have tried, and even though properly trained, etc. I cannot achieve the same accuracy as a computer that measures and provides the compensation where needed.

I have said it before, I was taught by a teacher who was arguably regarded as one of the top technicians and teachers on the planet, and I tuned aurally in recording venues for 16 years before the programmable SAT came out. I got it to make arthritis less intrusive,and it soon made me a better tuner. If the OP had a problem with the tuning, we cannot look to how the RPT did it, simply on the basis of "most groups of notes were not harmonious". That is not a sufficiently specific description.
Regards,

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 151
D
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 151
I had one client stop hiring after several visits. She claims my tuning was faulty because it would sound twangy after a few weeks. My initial visit was a major pitch raise, and the tuning pins in the tenor section are too close together that the strings bend around them


David Schwoyer
Dave's Piano service
Piano Technician
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 811
O
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 811
Originally Posted by Ed Foote
I have said it before, I was taught by a teacher who was arguably regarded as one of the top technicians and teachers on the planet

What a bold statement. How many credits does he have as a technician/tuner on allmusic.com ?

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 5,480
H
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
H
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 5,480
Here is a bold statement I might say:

As an application developer, I can say that, the equal temperament set surpasses the equal temperament set by best aural tuners.

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,235
E
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,235
Originally Posted by OE1FEU
Originally Posted by Ed Foote
I have said it before, I was taught by a teacher who was arguably regarded as one of the top technicians and teachers on the planet

What a bold statement. How many credits does he have as a technician/tuner on allmusic.com ?

I don't know anything about allmusic.com. However, I would challenge you to find any accomplished technician that knew Bill Garlick who would criticize his tuning or his teaching.
Regards,

Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 811
O
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 811
Originally Posted by Ed Foote
Originally Posted by OE1FEU
Originally Posted by Ed Foote
I have said it before, I was taught by a teacher who was arguably regarded as one of the top technicians and teachers on the planet

What a bold statement. How many credits does he have as a technician/tuner on allmusic.com ?

I don't know anything about allmusic.com. However, I would challenge you to find any accomplished technician that knew Bill Garlick who would criticize his tuning or his teaching.
Regards,

There must be at least a couple of recordings with this exceptional tuner somewhere. I'd rather judge for myself than relying on hearsay, but I couldn't find a single listing on either allmusic.com or discogs.com, so maybe you can point me in the right direction.

Joined: May 2015
Posts: 9,129
Gold Subscriber
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 9,129
Originally Posted by OE1FEU
Originally Posted by Ed Foote
Originally Posted by OE1FEU
Originally Posted by Ed Foote
I have said it before, I was taught by a teacher who was arguably regarded as one of the top technicians and teachers on the planet

What a bold statement. How many credits does he have as a technician/tuner on allmusic.com ?

I don't know anything about allmusic.com. However, I would challenge you to find any accomplished technician that knew Bill Garlick who would criticize his tuning or his teaching.
Regards,

There must be at least a couple of recordings with this exceptional tuner somewhere. I'd rather judge for myself than relying on hearsay, but I couldn't find a single listing on either allmusic.com or discogs.com, so maybe you can point me in the right direction.


Is it necessary to question every statement and need proof? It shouldn’t be unless we all need to be ready with proof for anything we write.

I don’t think we want to go there on this forum.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It's ok to be a Work In Progress
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,548
W
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,548
Originally Posted by OE1FEU
I couldn't find a single listing on either allmusic.com or discogs.com, so maybe you can point me in the right direction.

Did you try Google? It says Mr Garlick was held in the highest regard, just as Ed Foote wrote.


Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 9,129
Gold Subscriber
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 9,129
Originally Posted by Withindale
Originally Posted by OE1FEU
I couldn't find a single listing on either allmusic.com or discogs.com, so maybe you can point me in the right direction.

Did you try Google? It says Mr Garlick was held in the highest regard, just as Ed Foote wrote.

Head of Steinway’s tech dept for 17 years


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It's ok to be a Work In Progress
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 811
O
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 811
People, I haven't questioned anything. I have asked a question - and I believe it's legitimate to ask for a recording of a technician that is not only held in high regard, but called one of the greatest on the planet. I am actually really curious to hear his work, but even though I know that he was head of Steinway's technical department in NY, I have yet to stumble upon a recording to listen to.I referenced allmusic and discogs, because they actually mention technicians/tuner for recordings, which is why I looked on these sites.

Not every question is sinister, insinuating, degrading or a sign of disapproval.

Sometimes it's actually a question with real curiosity as its origin.

Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
Pianos - Organs - & Keyboards, Oh My!
My first professionally recorded piece
---------------------
Visit Maine, Meet Mr. Piano World
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
1908 Knabe?
by beginagain - 12/09/21 12:54 AM
Piano lid material?
by Davdoc - 12/09/21 12:49 AM
Thoughts on Technics PR903
by McBuster - 12/09/21 12:46 AM
Kawai VPC-1 or Roland A88 MKII (or FP30X)?
by detektorosradio - 12/08/21 06:03 PM
Birdcage Piano Tuner needed in Virginia
by zander35 - 12/08/21 04:45 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics210,465
Posts3,151,715
Members103,560
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5