2022 our 25th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
67 members (brdwyguy, anotherscott, 36251, David Boyce, CHAS, David Lai, accordeur, 15 invisible), 675 guests, and 283 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 10,471
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 10,471
Ranjit
I provided my best advice based on how I learned to sightread well. No one needs to take it.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It's ok to be a Work In Progress
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 32,384
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 32,384
Originally Posted by ranjit
Originally Posted by dogperson
Sight reading should not feel like doing extended push-ups, it should feel like taking a scenic walk.
I don't agree. You can't tell someone how they should feel about a particular activity. There's nothing wrong in thinking about it like a sport and honing your skill in a more methodical way. It doesn't have to be like that, but there's certainly nothing wrong with it. Also, sightreading several hours a day... well, I think if you split it up, it should be possible. 1-2 hours is definitely possible in my experience. 3 hours is pushing it, but it may be possible if you can split it up 1:30, 45, 45 or something.

Also, I dislike talking in absolutes. Never say never, if someone wants to push themselves hard to achieve something, I don't see why they shouldn't be encouraged to do so. It is how you discover the reality of your own ideas and potential. "Don't work too hard, it isn't a race" isn't necessarily bad advice, but I know students at conservatory work hard at it for several hours to an extent regardless of their motivation. It's a bumpy road. And who are we to stop them or tell them they're wrong?

I find this talk about enjoying the journey a bit foolish when it's bright up as a counterpoint to effort put in. Most of the time, the effort wins out. Often, that effort is driven by an inner goal and isn't necessarily painful. However, it's still hard work at the end of the day (I'm not saying talent doesn't exist but even prodigies need to work hard at piano to get anywhere decent). If someone wants to try to focus for several hours per day, good on them, and I know it can be done. There's nothing wrong in aspiring for it, as they say nothing ventured nothing gained.
Your post is full of platitudes and your personal theories even though you are not a good sight reader. The reality is that almost all good sight readers never "practiced sight reading", and your approach is an example of the extreme opposite method. IOW your idea is the opposite of what's known to work by those who have become good sight readers. You also overlook the fact that to become a good sight reader one has to develop good playing technique which a separate skill taking many years and separate from sight reading skill.

Your comment about conservatory students is also wrong if you're talking about practicing sight reading, If you're talking about practicing in general they work for a lot more than "several hours".

Last edited by pianoloverus; 09/05/21 07:27 PM.
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 981
R
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
R
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 981
Yes, but most good sightreaders also started young, something I could not do.

By the time they are at conservatory, most people don't practice sight reading. However, they often have to accompany for extended periods of time, which is imo pretty similar.

"Practicing" is a tricky word. Good sightreaders did often read for several hours a day, but it may not have felt tiring to them.

It also appears that you are drawing an artificial distinction between doing a particular activity and "practicing" it, so a number of people who are good at something didn't "practice" it. The distinction is not as obvious as you may think, as one could say that about most any subject -- you don't practice math, you just keep doing increasingly difficult problems and it just comes to you. But that's what practice means!

Last edited by ranjit; 09/05/21 07:34 PM.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 32,384
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 32,384
Originally Posted by ranjit
Yes, but most good sightreaders also started young, something I could not do.

By the time they are at conservatory, most people don't practice sight reading. However, they often have to accompany for extended periods of time, which is imo pretty similar.

"Practicing" is a tricky word. Good sightreaders did often read for several hours a day, but it may not have felt tiring to them.

It also appears that you are drawing an artificial distinction between doing a particular activity and "practicing" it, so a number of people who are good at something didn't "practice" it. The distinction is not as obvious as you may think, as one could say that about most any subject -- you don't practice math, you just keep doing increasingly difficult problems and it just comes to you. But that's what practice means!
Missing the point again. When I said that good sight readers didn't practice sight reading, I meant(as has been stated on countless threads at PW using the same language) they didn't say "I'm going to practice sight reading from some method book etc. for x hours every day" whether x was 1/4 or 2. They sight read a lot but totally for pleasure with music they wanted to read through. They never thought of it as practicing sight reading because they enjoyed what they were doing which is the main reason they did a lot of it. The same thing dogperson was talking about.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 09/05/21 08:18 PM.
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 2,263
M
2000 Post Club Member
Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 2,263
Now you have a teacher then you should ask them how best to practice. I don't think anyone recommend hours of sight reading!! My teacher suggested Paul Harris book and I also got a graded book with short examples in. Your book is a good start to me but I only would spend a short time on this. The Paul Harris series also taught other skills - clapping rhythms, some music terms with simple theory and short examples which all help sight reading for exams.

I would also add you need to be realistic in the standard you want to achieve. The standard of a 'good' grade 8 pianist is not to sight read Bach invention. I scored full marks in my grade 7 sight reading in 2015 and bach invention were a challenge to learn, not to sight read, some time later. I Polyphonic with two voices it is very difficult to sight read. A classical sonata, even at a higher grade, is much easier to sight read.

I think some of the advanced pianist forget the struggles of a beginner. At the diploma level in abrsm board there is a quick study where people practice by sight reading learning lots of repertoire. I didn't specifically do any sight 'practice' for my last exam but I did a lot with a teacher for grade 6 as a child.

Thank you for another sight reading thread. I look forward to a sight reading thread here every week now with the same argument and fights smile.

Last edited by Moo :); 09/05/21 08:42 PM.
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 2,263
M
2000 Post Club Member
Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 2,263

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,681
Silver Subscriber
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
Silver Subscriber
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,681
Pablobear I'm really curious, if you increase your sight-reading to one or two hours a day, share your experience. Let us know if you improved your sight-reading.

I also practise sight-reading, in may my teacher told me if I want to progress beyond the intermediate pianist, I need to be a better sight-reader. Right now I practise 15 minutes a day of sight-reading with method books. They contain small phrases of 8 to 16 measures. They include different keys, different meters, different rhythm. After 4 months, I improved my sight-reading but my progress is slow.

Last edited by Serge88; 09/05/21 11:19 PM.


“To send light into the darkness of men’s hearts - such is the duty of the artist.”
- Robert Schumann

Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 2,429
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 2,429
Originally Posted by pablobear
The thing is though, I would have way more fun if I could sightread better

Pablobear, I totally get this. I think many piano students would agree. But I don't think that giving yourself a "CHALLENGING sightreading challenge" will make you improve your sightreading very fast. If it is too much a challenge, you'll just fail hopelessly, and how much will you have learned? Next to nothing.

Moo mentioned Paul Harris. He has written a series of books with exercises. My advice would be to start with the book that is appropriate for your present level, and work through them methodically.

Edit: here is the link: https://www.alfred.com/search/products/?query=improve+your+sight+reading

Last edited by Animisha; 09/06/21 03:23 AM.

Playing the piano is learning to create, playfully and deeply seriously, our own music in the world.
*
... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 3,107
S
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 3,107
Here is a pro doing sight reading and she has 20 years of piano. Notice the Bach toccata part at 11:00 where even for her it is difficult. The toccata is much more difficult than an invention, but still ....



Blüthner model 6
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 693
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 693
Originally Posted by Sidokar
Here is a pro doing sight reading and she has 20 years of piano. Notice the Bach toccata part at 11:00 where even for her it is difficult. The toccata is much more difficult than an invention, but still ....


Oh another YouTuber inspired by the 'likes' she receives - wonderful.

For someone who says "I'm not very good at sight-reading", she plays way beyond what most can manage on a first play-through. It's important to stress, particularly in ABF, that this is not a typical example of someone who is a bad sight-reader - not even close. So, don't beat yourself up if YOU consider yourself a bad sight-reader, but struggle way more than her. She uses this comment to reduce expectation from those watching, and therefore ease some pressure on herself, it's not as a genuine statement.

Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,873
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,873
Originally Posted by fatar760
Oh another YouTuber inspired by the 'likes' she receives - wonderful.

For someone who says "I'm not very good at sight-reading", she plays way beyond what most can manage on a first play-through. It's important to stress, particularly in ABF, that this is not a typical example of someone who is a bad sight-reader - not even close. So, don't beat yourself up if YOU consider yourself a bad sight-reader, but struggle way more than her. She uses this comment to reduce expectation from those watching, and therefore ease some pressure on herself, it's not as a genuine statement.
I think that Sidokar's point is that even a Julliard -trained pianist with a concert career can have problems sight-reading Bach. This is someone who can play Rach 3 and Gaspard and she admits that she doesn't normally sight-read Bach hands together.

BTW, I was shocked that such an accomplished pianist has never even heard To A Wild Rose. 😮

Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 3,107
S
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 3,107
Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
I think that Sidokar's point is that even a Julliard -trained pianist with a concert career can have problems sight-reading Bach. This is someone who can play Rach 3 and Gaspard and she admits that she doesn't normally sight-read Bach hands together.

BTW, I was shocked that such an accomplished pianist has never even heard To A Wild Rose. 😮

Yes, thank you for clarifying. She is a pro concert pianist with 20+ years of piano and plays also as an accompanist. So I guess expectations for her sight reading abilities are not the same as for an amateur pianist.


Blüthner model 6
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 32,384
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 32,384
Originally Posted by Sidokar
Here is a pro doing sight reading and she has 20 years of piano. Notice the Bach toccata part at 11:00 where even for her it is difficult. The toccata is much more difficult than an invention, but still ....
And perhaps even more important to notice is that she is not concerned about slowing down when a passage gets more difficult, correcting her mistakes while playing, playing hands separately, or even stopping completely while sight reading. These are all things that some people think are just not allowed when sight reading but I think that's an incorrect assumption.

Joined: May 2015
Posts: 10,471
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 10,471
Isn’t how you approach sight-reading I.e., stopping, correcting or not dependent on your goal snd how you will use these skills?

If you will never be in a situation where you need to play unfamiliar music I.e. singing around the piano, the ability to sightread without stopping is not important

If you would ever need to play for church services, or singing around the piano, you need to acquire the skills of playing without stopping.

My teacher would have us play duets with music unfamiliar to me. I was expected not to stop and correct or slow down, while honoring dynamics.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It's ok to be a Work In Progress
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 32,384
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 32,384
Originally Posted by dogperson
Isn’t how you approach sight-reading I.e., stopping, correcting or not dependent on your goal snd how you will use these skills?

If you will never be in a situation where you need to play unfamiliar music I.e. singing around the piano, the ability to sightread without stopping is not important

If you would ever need to play for church services, or singing around the piano, you need to acquire the skills of playing without stopping.

My teacher would have us play duets with music unfamiliar to me. I was expected not to stop and correct or slow down, while honoring dynamics.
When one plays with another person one should not stop if possible. I think most people fairly quickly reach a stage where playing for church services or sight reading while others sing around the piano can be done quite easily without stopping. For the very small percentage of people who are professional accompanists or who want to sight read advanced chamber music with others the ability to play without stopping should probably be practiced. Since pianists often have the singer's or other instrumentalist's parts written in their score, even if one drops out for a measure or two it can be easy to jump back in. If some amateurs didn't have to practice for exams where they are expected to try to sight read without stopping, I think only a very tiny percentage would/should ever be concerned about slowing down or stopping while sight reading.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 09/06/21 11:11 AM.
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 981
R
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
R
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 981
She's bad at sightreading relative to her "peers", proper concert pianists or at least those who have been learning for 20 years as seriously as her.

Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by ranjit
Yes, but most good sightreaders also started young, something I could not do.

By the time they are at conservatory, most people don't practice sight reading. However, they often have to accompany for extended periods of time, which is imo pretty similar.

"Practicing" is a tricky word. Good sightreaders did often read for several hours a day, but it may not have felt tiring to them.

It also appears that you are drawing an artificial distinction between doing a particular activity and "practicing" it, so a number of people who are good at something didn't "practice" it. The distinction is not as obvious as you may think, as one could say that about most any subject -- you don't practice math, you just keep doing increasingly difficult problems and it just comes to you. But that's what practice means!
Missing the point again. When I said that good sight readers didn't practice sight reading, I meant(as has been stated on countless threads at PW using the same language) they didn't say "I'm going to practice sight reading from some method book etc. for x hours every day" whether x was 1/4 or 2. They sight read a lot but totally for pleasure with music they wanted to read through. They never thought of it as practicing sight reading because they enjoyed what they were doing which is the main reason they did a lot of it. The same thing dogperson was talking about.
You clearly can't follow a line of logic, so I see no point in continuing this discussion.

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,751
B
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,751
Originally Posted by ranjit
She's bad at sightreading relative to her "peers", proper concert pianists or at least those who have been learning for 20 years as seriously as her.

How do you know that?


♯ ♮ ♭ ø ° Δ ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬
Yamaha C3X
YouTube
[Linked Image]

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,426

Silver Supporter until Jan 11 2012
1000 Post Club Member
Offline

Silver Supporter until Jan 11 2012
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,426
If the sample group she compares to herself to in her own mind are other Julliard piano students (not to mention the faculty they learn from!), I wouldn't be surprised if she knew plenty of others who sight read better than she does.

I don't understand the need to reflexively bash a pretty young woman who vlogs--it's not as though vlogging is unusual anymore. I see tons of young men significantly less talented than she put themselves forth as Youtube piano authorities, while she focuses on giving a somewhat deglamorized/more-realistic view of young concert pianist's experiences and studies. Good for her, I say.


Please step aside. You're standing in your own way.
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 693
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 693
Originally Posted by tangleweeds
I don't understand the need to reflexively bash a pretty young woman who vlogs--it's not as though vlogging is unusual anymore. I see tons of young men significantly less talented than she put themselves forth as Youtube piano authorities, while she focuses on giving a somewhat deglamorized/more-realistic view of young concert pianist's experiences and studies. Good for her, I say.

And I don't understand why you've brought looks, gender or age into the argument.You're right though, there are many people striving to put themselves out there online and offer their advice.

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,426

Silver Supporter until Jan 11 2012
1000 Post Club Member
Offline

Silver Supporter until Jan 11 2012
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,426
Originally Posted by fatar760
And I don't understand why you've brought looks, gender or age into the argument.You're right though, there are many people striving to put themselves out there online and offer their advice.
Entirely personal. I happen to have a gender-neutral name, and long long ago when I was a pretty blonde studying higher math, I got a lot of very positive feedback (obviously written) on my work--until professors connected my face with my name. After that, I was scrutinized for cheating.

Last edited by tangleweeds; 09/06/21 05:58 PM. Reason: proofreading

Please step aside. You're standing in your own way.
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
Piano Buyer - Read the Articles, Explore the website
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Beginner: Boston GB156 or Yamaha GC1?
by Emeraldwynn - 05/22/22 11:20 AM
KAWAI ES920 need Technical Help !
by Chummy - 05/22/22 05:34 AM
Lack of motivation
by Josephine83 - 05/22/22 05:03 AM
Cliburn Amateur concerto list
by computerpro3 - 05/22/22 12:00 AM
Sound Generators - Quality? Capacity? Options?
by bob@pei - 05/21/22 11:22 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums43
Topics213,178
Posts3,193,585
Members105,341
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2022 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5