Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Schimmel uprights, Baldwin grands, & clueless newbies

Yesterday I started in-person piano shopping with my kid. Sales reps probably don't like the first time shoppers but our local guy was really nice and didn't throw us out. This place has mostly mid-range new stuff and a few assorted trade-ins.

The kid tried everything in the grands and larger verticals and was much pickier than I expected him to be for sound and feel. Some of the pianos sounded good to him, some felt good, but few did both. So we ended up with a few questions and appreciate any insight, relevant or not.

We haven't yet gone to a Kawai or Yamaha dealer, but the kid tried a few used Kawais at this shop. He liked them but they didn't WOW him. They might not have been in the best condition but he liked the way they played. They sound better at Kawai dealers, right?

He tried a new Schimmel K122 and it was his favorite of all the new pianos but they didn't have a larger one to try. Is there a noticeable improvement as you go up in the K series of verticals? (There was a K195 grand and a C-something vertical but the kid was not impressed by those and went back to the K122.) Is there anything comparable to the K uprights we should go out of our way to try?

The kid's favorite was a 20-year old Baldwin L. He liked the action and the sound. Do these models in general have a distinct sound and if so, does anything new sound like that? It sure didn't sound anything like the Schimmels.

Is my kid capricious and not to be trusted with piano decisions if he selected 2 very different instruments as his favorites?

I certainly don't mind used preowned and as much as it delights my frugal heart to see my kid favor the cheapest full-size piano in the store, we have more dealers to visit before deciding. And then we decide if we want to add private party sales to the search. I expect that we will revisit these pianos, though.


(Also, I really don't like the look of plain shiny black pianos! High gloss belongs in the 1980s along with big hair and Nagel prints.There. I said it. Ug.)

So space is not an issue for a grand piano. You'll have a better idea as you audition more pianos - but also consider the longevity of the kid's involvement with piano. I think most people hedge their bets by getting a beginner's piano with the option to upgrade later.

How old is "the kid"?

We have space but an upright will look weirder--we don't have wall space so whatever we get will have to "float" in the room.

Our current piano would probably be considered a beginner piano and the kid does need an upgrade. I'm confident that he will continue playing and he's at the point where his piano is not keeping up. It was not a high end instrument 85 years ago and it hasn't gotten any better.

Kid is 13. He's been playing 5 years or so and is quite dedicated.

The kid has good taste!

The L is a nice piano.

There is a Baldwin sound.

I have an American-sound piano but also could be very happy with some European sound pianos. Not strange at all to me that your son likes both Schimmel and Baldwin

The L is indeed a nice piano!

Just a suggestion to have an independent tech inspect a pre-owned piano.

Thanks!

If the "Baldwin sound" is loud and brassy (but in a good way), then that's what we heard. Do the late 90s/early 2000s Baldwins count as real Baldwins?


We will have our tech inspect anything we seriously consider. The only concern is that he's probably so tired of our old piano he'll approve anything! (Kidding of course. I think.) Are tech inspections recommended for new pianos?

If it’s a Baldwin L it’s a real Baldwin. Have a tech check it out. Could be a real gem if the price is right.

Rich

Not always, and there is a huge difference between the cheapest upright and Shigeru Kawai grand. And SK3 seems quite a popular choice where I live. However the last few years the price has rocketed.

I have tried the K122 and the K132, but I do not remember having tried the K125. Out of the two former I preferred the K122. It was somehow a more balanced sound. But obviously it will also depend on the specimen.
I quite like the Schimmel Konzert 219, I find it a much better value than the K195 for what you get.
The Schimmel Konzert uprights and grand I have experienced keep their tuning very well.


I do not find that so strange. When you are shopping for a piano there are many things to like and dislike with a piano. But in collaboration I am sure you will figure it out.

Ha, ha - you are one of few.
If your special order a piano you can get anything you want in terms of in terms of finish, but the downside is that two pianos, although identical model and size, can and probably will sound (quite) different to a degree. Not all people notice though.

Good luck with your piano hunt!

The Baldwin "Artist" models (M, R, L, SF, and SD) were produced up until '08. They were Baldwin's long time designs and "best" when they introduced pianos at lower price points. Since '08, Baldwin produces all their pianos in China. It's not fair to say they aren't "real" Baldwins, but they are different from the Artist models that are no longer in production. FWIW, I've heard good things about the new Baldwins, but have not had the chance to play one yet.

Retsacnal—

Do you happen to remember when they switched action suppliers to Renner on the sizes smaller than the SF10? I seem to remember this being the case on later production models of the US-assembled artist series.

One of my favourite uprights is the Schimmel K132.A musical friend of mine preffered it to the Bechstein Concert 8.I have tried the smaller K122.The tone was smaller and keys were shorter than the K132.The touch of all these are light and very responsive.
I confess to liking the older Baldwin grands which have a warm American tone compared to the very clear tone of the Schimmel Konzert series.(some may find cold???)
I tried the K195 and thought it superb as a grand piano.I have never had a chance to compare it with the larger Schimmel's except a Wilhelm Schimmel.This has a warmer tone perhaps brighter than the Konzert pianos I played.

Thanks for the info, all!

I should point out that even if my kid did like the Schimmel K195 (I think that's what it was), he wouldn't be getting it. I don't have a budget yet, but I'm pretty sure that won't be in it.

He also tried a small W. Schimmel grand but I don't remember which. It's becoming clear that I should be taking notes on the ones he doesn't like as well as the ones he does.

I think it was just the last couple years of production. Although I've heard it was optional earlier than that... ???

Edited to add: turns out my '08-'09 supplement is on the desk right in front of me! It says "As of 2008, all Baldwin grands come with Renner action and Renner hammers," so it was literally at the end. I don't see mention of it being optional before that, but believe I've read it here from some former Baldwin dealers. ???

Too late to edit above...

The '08-'09 supplement also says "After Baldwin filed for bankruptcy [in 2000] and until some time after being purchased by Gibson, piano production at Baldwin's Arkansas factories came to a near standstill for a time and a great deal of piano-making talent and know-how was lost to layoffs--at least temporarily. ... [but] Baldwin has been very gradually resuming production. Baldwin grands still have great designs and specifications, but as can be expected, quality has been uneven while the factory has been gaining experience. For protection and peace of mind, I would advise hiring an independent technician to inspect a Baldwin piano before purchasing it."


So, Baldwins built after 2000 probably warrant extra scrutiny (along with Baldwins from the mid 80's when there were also known to be increased QA issues).


Of course, we always advise having any second hand piano inspected (not just the above).

Unless your son is extremely advanced for his five years of experience AND has lots of experience playing pianos other than the one at home, he may not be the best evaluator of pianos. For example, it can anyone quite a while to get used to an action different from the piano they play 99% of the time so if he doesn't like an action, it may just mean he needs a lot more time to adjust or even that his technique needs work.

None of the above means his preferences shouldn't be taken into account, but I don't necessarily think they should be the major factor. He should try to explain as much as possible why likes or dislikes a particular piano.

It's also possible you need to spend a lot more time shopping. If you presently have a tech that you trust and you think is good, it might even make sense to hire that person to go shopping with you and give his opinion on the different pianos.

If you don't like gloss black finishes, perhaps you should consider a satin black finish. In today's market, if you insist on a non ebony finish on a grand, your selection will probably be significantly reduced since ebony finishes have become extremely popular in the last ten years or so.

Appreciate the Baldwin info!

We will definitely do a lot more shopping.

I do know my kid isn't going to be the best at evaluating pianos. I was pretty surprised he didn't think they were all amazing considering most of his playing has been on an old clunker. The specific complaint was that the keys took too much effort to depress. Heavy and sluggish. (For sound quality, we didn't always agree. I won't hesitate to overrule him on sound if needed.) Next time I'll make it sit with it a bit longer.





Yeah, I know I'll probably have to settle for black. Shiny, plastic black.

If your child is in fact serious about the piano, please consider that he will eventually outgrow an upright action. The action in grands IS different, and it's no accident that you're not going to see a concert-level performance delivered on an upright piano. The L is a serious piano with long-time future applicability if your technician finds it technically sound.

Perhaps. I think it is actually a very small percentage of pianists who actually outgrow what the action of a good upright can provide but anyway this doesn't really matter. We would be talking so many years in the future and a piano ability so far in excess of current that by then your son might be looking at types of grand very different to what may seem reasonable now for a beginner and will also have by then developed his own preferences for music and pianos that are very different from what you might 'randomly' select now.