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Originally Posted by vagfilm
Hi KJ: I am not sure if a fully understand your comment or the above mentioned "test", but why is it an impossibility to implement?

I'm afraid I do not recall the exact explanation, and even if I could, it's probably better not to discuss it here.

Kind regards,
James
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
It's so, yes this test will not work on any Novus instrument, due to the nature and positioning of the optical hammer sensors. I don't believe it's something that can be "fixed" with a firmware update (perhaps Gombessa will contradict me?). Nor do I believe it will be a determining factor in a customer's decision to purchase Yamaha or Kawai.
x
So the firmware/software doesn't 'remember' the silent key press, with no key return, and therefore know to activate the note resonance if other keys are pressed? That seems like a firmware problem; although my knowledge of the sensor implementation is zero. Just curious for further explanation if possible. As I think HZPiano alludes to, there may also be a midi discrepancy here?

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HZPiano,

Originally Posted by HZPiano
I am not easily angered, but this is utterly insulting...

My apologies for dismissing your comment so flippantly. It is not my intention to anger fellow forum members.

Kind regards,
James
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Isn't this all just a tempest in a teacup?

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OMG I have no drop let master dumper detector for the silent sensor on my novus hammers...last posts makes me a totally unhappy DP owner...I'll better go to play a little bit, is weekend weee...


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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
[size:14pt]
Isn't this all just a tempest in a teacup?
For the music I play it is of no concern, but it seems a relevant subject, when you consider we discuss, ad-nauseam key lengths, pivot points, wood or plastic, 'what makes it hybrid', loud or silent notes, speakers, soundboards, headphones, interfaces, marketing hype, and so on... Also it's just nice to know.

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Originally Posted by spanishbuddha
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
[size:14pt]
Isn't this all just a tempest in a teacup?
For the music I play it is of no concern, but it seems a relevant subject, when you consider we discuss, ad-nauseam key lengths, pivot points, wood or plastic, 'what makes it hybrid', loud or silent notes, speakers, soundboards, headphones, interfaces, marketing hype, and so on... Also it's just nice to know.

Unfortunately for many others, I'm interested in these kinds of details. Sometimes I feel I'm the anti-MacMacMac smile


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Hi James (KAWAIJAMES),

Just discovered on youtube :

Kawai GL-10 ATX4

i will perhaps consider to buy this (Kawai GL-10 ATX4) instead of NV10S, if this new ATX 4 work as YAMAHA SH2 smile

I read that ATX 4 have improved stop rail. But midi improvements ?

I hope....

I will try this piano in a Store in France. I ask KAWAI FRANCE on Facebook.

Regards,

Olivier F.


O.F : Real GRAND Piano Schimmel / Roland HP 603 with Pianoteq 7.4.2 or Gar. CFX lite/ and perhaps soon an N1X or GC1/C1X SH2-TA2....

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Hi,

I've been following this thread for a while. My NV5S arrived today, and I've created an account to ask for advice.

When I play, I'm playing notes and they're not sounding left right and centre. If I depress a key and don't let it lift up 100%, it doesn't sound any longer. This is with every key. My technique isn't great, but I've not had this issue with another piano.

Example here -


Is this just a characteristic of the Millenium III action and do I need to adjust my technique? If anyone has one, I'd appreciate the feedback.

Thanks

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^ This is the main disadvantage of upright piano actions. You need to release the keys fully in order to be able to repeat the note. This "issue" is solved in grand piano actions, so you may have to upgrade to a NV10S if you need it.


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Hello Jon358, welcome to the forum.

With piano action (upright -> as CyberGene mentioned), the key must return to the starting position almost 100%, so that when the keys are struck again, the tongue goes back under the hammer nut.

This can be regulated.

I cannot judge to what extent the setting of your NV5S is in Kawai's specification.

In case of doubt, you would have to check with the Kawai service.

The behaviour is identical for all keys?

The NV5S I had in my possession for a short time was inconspicuous with regard to the general repedition, i.e. it was playable like other pianos.

Kind regards MBiG

Last edited by MBiG; 09/17/21 03:18 AM.

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Originally Posted by MBiG
With piano action, the key must return to the starting position almost 100%, so that when the keys are struck again, the tongue goes back under the hammer nut.

This is valid only for upright piano actions and not for grand piano actions where the mechanism of double-repetition lever (patented and introduced by Erard in the 19th century) allows for repeating the keys by releasing them only slightly (above the escapement).

Originally Posted by MBiG
This can be regulated.

Not sure what exactly you mean but (see above) the aforementioned limitation of upright piano actions cannot be overcome by regulation.


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@ CyberGene -> You are of course right, regarding the differentiation between upright and grand. Unfortunately, I only noticed after the post that I had not expressed this exactly.

As far as I know, the range of how far the key has to return to its original position so that a new keystroke is possible can indeed be regulated / adjusted (within certain,small, limits) (e.g. "Stoßzungenschraubfeder" I dont know the english term) -> I am always happy to be taught better. However, this does not mean that an upright mechanism can be tuned in the direction of a grand. The advantages of the grand mechanism are undoubtedly present.

Last edited by MBiG; 09/17/21 03:38 AM.

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Yes, you are right that a regulation can bring the upright action into a state where this deficiency is at a minimum. Furthermore, on most good uprights I’ve played, the action is very nimble (admittedly a bit spring-loaded), so fast repetitions are still allowed. The only problem is executing quiet trills near the bottom. But I’m any case with more experience any pianist can learn to adapt to any action.

Last edited by CyberGene; 09/17/21 03:43 AM.

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Thank you for the feedback. I've not played an upright where it needed absolute release before, but from what you've said it sounds like this is acceptable behaviour and I'll need to adapt. I've probably spent too many years on full digitals.

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Hello Jon,

I would still recommend raising this topic with your dealer (and perhaps checking their showroom NV5S for comparison), just in case.

Kind regards,
James
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Fun fact: Yamaha's upright hybrid still sounds without the jack returning causing the "loud note issue", which has been mitigated by firmware now.

Kawai's behavior is completely correct. If the hammer doesn't strike, no sound is to be heard.

Have you ever seen a professional pianist struggle with an upright piano's single escapement action? That's because their technique is perfect exercising the full key travel for the most precise control of dynamics. Double escapement only comes into effect when the action doesn't return fast enough on its own for a repetition. That is the case when your virtuoso playing has reached 12 to 16 notes per second.


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Originally Posted by Jon358
Thank you for the feedback. I've not played an upright where it needed absolute release before, but from what you've said it sounds like this is acceptable behaviour and I'll need to adapt. I've probably spent too many years on full digitals.
This is actually an advantage "fully" digital piano actions with three sensors have over any hybrid piano action (at least the ones from Kawai and Yamaha). Even the hybrids with a grand piano action you have to return the key to a higher position than on an acoustic grand to be able to repeat it (although not all the way), whereas a fully digital action behaves more like an acoustic piano in that regard. Hybrid actions do however have many other advantages over fully digital actions that overweight this problem IMO. In the acoustic world I don't think this difference between upright and a grand piano is that absolute, there are upright actions that can repeat the note without returning all the way, in a similar way as a grand piano.

Last edited by johanibraaten; 09/17/21 04:31 AM.

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Quote
This is actually an disadvantage "fully" digital piano actions with three sensors have over any hybrid piano action

Corrected that. It's a bug, not a feature.

Digital pianos to aim reproduce the original piano, fail at that occasion and provide another example of how digital pianos hamper your piano technique.


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Originally Posted by johanibraaten
Originally Posted by Jon358
Thank you for the feedback. I've not played an upright where it needed absolute release before, but from what you've said it sounds like this is acceptable behaviour and I'll need to adapt. I've probably spent too many years on full digitals.
This is actually an advantage "fully" digital piano actions with three sensors have over any hybrid piano action (at least the ones from Kawai and Yamaha). Even the hybrids with a grand piano action you have to return the key to a higher position than on an acoustic grand to be able to repeat it (although not all the way), whereas a fully digital action behaves more like an acoustic piano in that regard. Hybrid actions do however have many other advantages over fully digital actions that overweight this problem IMO. In the acoustic world I don't think this difference between upright and a grand piano is that absolute, there are upright actions that can repeat the note without returning all the way, in a similar way as a grand piano.

Not only repetition is case between digital upright and grand action. It's also weight distribution, lack of it when key is pressed down, return speed and weight, ability to play without fully pressing the key. Grand actions have a 10-12mm depth, and often you need 2-3 mm up to be able to repeat the sound. On an upright you do need full return, but it's rather 2-4mm from the top than down.

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