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Originally Posted by JoeT
Digital pianos to aim reproduce the original piano, fail at that occasion and provide another example of how digital pianos hamper your piano technique.

I've seen you become increasingly scathing about the nature of digital pianos. You are now very vocal and waste no opportunity at all to tell us that digital pianos are an unacceptable substitute for acoustic pianos. Can I ask you...why do you participate in this Forum?

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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by JoeT
Digital pianos to aim reproduce the original piano, fail at that occasion and provide another example of how digital pianos hamper your piano technique.

I've seen you become increasingly scathing about the nature of digital pianos. You are now very vocal and waste no opportunity at all to tell us that digital pianos are an unacceptable substitute for acoustic pianos. Can I ask you...why do you participate in this Forum?

To point this out so digital pianos can improve. The release of the Novus models demonstrate such improvement.

The next step would be hybrid uprights actually entering the price range of small acoustic uprights to replace digitals with inferior folded actions. There is really no reason for a folded action to exist outside of slab piano.


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Originally Posted by maucycy
Grand actions have a 10-12mm depth, and often you need 2-3 mm up to be able to repeat the sound. On an upright you do need full return, but it's rather 2-4mm from the top than down.
This is true in most cases, there are however upright actions that have solutions that give similar result (in some way) to the double repetition of a grand piano.

Last edited by johanibraaten; 09/17/21 05:32 AM.

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Originally Posted by JoeT
The next step would be hybrid uprights actually entering the price range of small acoustic uprights to replace digitals with inferior folded actions. There is really no reason for a folded action to exist outside of slab piano.

At least one reason is obvious -> profit maximisation.

Another would be e.g. cannibalisation effects in the product portfolio.


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Another would be ... the folded action is cheaper to manufacture.
Another would be ... the folded action doesn't need regulation.

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Hi John,
Please don’t listen to people saying “it’s normal” because it is a vertical piano. It’s not normal!!!! I owned NV5 and I sold it for an NV10s. I had the same problem (yes, it’s a problem) and a technician came to fix it (an acoustic piano technician). He said that all this kawai have the sane issue. No one knows why kaway doesn’t fix it from fabric. This problem doesn’t happen only when you do ribattuto but also if your finger is minimally pressing a key and when you try tonplay that key none sound will come.
I study classical music with a teacher and I assure you it is not a matter of technique…

You can find plenty of post regarding this. Ask your dealer to send u a tech asap!!![video:youtube]https://youtube.com/shorts/-e3ZayOB0hE?feature=share[/video]

Last edited by ilsanto1978; 09/17/21 07:56 AM.

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While I love talking about digital pianos and the differences between their actions, I don't really *loathe* any of them to the degree I see some people here express.

Inexpensive plastic folding actions make piano accessible to SO many more people than my much-treasured hybrid ever could. Of course they won't be perfect in their simulation of a grand, but they're more compact, less complex, cheaper to build and to buy, and easier to service and repair if needed. I think for a lot of people those tradeoffs are not only well worth it, but also the only way the instrument is a possibility for them.


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@ ilsanto1978
Very interesting, could you briefly explain that a bit more? What was not set correctly according to the technician? How did the keyboard behave after the correction???

@Gombessa
I respected your opinion, who was your statement referring to? You seem to disagree with the way some members here express themselves. If you are referring to me, I would appreciate constructive feedback.

Last edited by MBiG; 09/17/21 08:23 AM.

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Originally Posted by ilsanto1978
He said that all this kawai have the sane issue.

So it's not a defect.

Quote
No one knows why kaway doesn’t fix it from fabric.

I know why Kawai doesn't "fix" it in the factory: Because these are not hand-made pianos costing 20 grand up, they are mass-produced in a cost-effective process. Nobody is going to spend hours on your specific piano to bring it up to perfection, because that alone adds few grand of a price premium. A few grand is the total price of your NV5S. As your technician noticed that is true for their acoustic variants too.

Tuning and regulation is part of the delivery process for an acoustic piano by any renowned piano shop. So don't order it online, buy it from a professional like any used or new grand or upright piano and it will be set up in good condition.

Originally Posted by Gombessa
While I love talking about digital pianos and the differences between their actions, I don't really *loathe* any of them to the degree I see some people here express.

Nobody does, though I loathe the race to the bottom started by manufacturers.

Quote
Inexpensive plastic folding actions make piano accessible to SO many more people than my much-treasured hybrid ever could. Of course they won't be perfect in their simulation of a grand

Though people on this forum make ridiculous claims they are.


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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Inexpensive plastic folding actions make piano accessible to SO many more people than my much-treasured hybrid ever could. Of course they won't be perfect in their simulation of a grand

Though people on this forum make ridiculous claims they are.

Here you go again - putting words into other people's mouths. Which people? Where's the evidence to substantiate your claims?

Show me where ANYONE has claimed that an entry level (or any level) digital piano is a perfect simulation of a grand.

Why do you twist everything?

You are a negative and unpleasant contributor to this Forum. Please just go away until you can find some perspective on this issue. We are here to talk about digital pianos. And in so doing we are, in effect, celebrating the existence of, appreciation of and furtherance of pianos and the playing of pianos. Digital Pianos, especially entry level models, make piano playing accessible to those who could never otherwise participate.

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I'd like to talk about pivot length for a second if you guys don't mind.

From what I gathered, GF3 in CA79/99 has a pivot length of 24cm and NV10's is 26cm. Grand Feel Compact (GFC) in CA49/59 seems about 20.5cm.

But it would appear, the upright action in the NV5(S) is even shorter than the GFC action in CA49 in terms of pivot length. You can see that easily by using the length of the black key as a reference point. To have a pivot of 23cm+, there must be at least one black key's length (the black portion) between the end of the black key and the pivot point.

Under 20 cm is rather short, that's in the range of Casio GP series (~18cm) and Yamaha NU1X. Casio GP310/510 definitely feels like an upright action, as does CA49/59, to me.

I was looking at potential candidate as the next upgrade to a CA79 (in a few years's time), was hoping something like the NU1X or NV5(S) might do it. It seems there's really nothing between the price point of CA79 and that of NV10 or N1X (23cm), for a digital piano with an acoustic grand piano action.

Any one with NV5(S) who can corroborate this finding? That, the pivot length is short like an average upright action, so playing close to the fallboard isn't as effortless as a grand action.

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@EssBrace: There's always the Ignore User button, right? smile

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Originally Posted by MBiG
If you are referring to me, I would appreciate constructive feedback.

Nah, I wasn't talking about you! grin


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Originally Posted by deadlymajesty
I'd like to talk about pivot length for a second if you guys don't mind.

From what I gathered, GF3 in CA79/99 has a pivot length of 24cm and NV10's is 26cm. Grand Feel Compact (GFC) in CA49/59 seems about 20.5cm.

But it would appear, the upright action in the NV5(S) is even shorter than the GFC action in CA49 in terms of pivot length. You can see that easily by using the length of the black key as a reference point. To have a pivot of 23cm+, there must be at least one black key's length (the black portion) between the end of the black key and the pivot point.

That means you have to place the piano action further back at the other side of the pivot for a properly balanced key. Every inch and every ounce you add, you have to add at both sides of the balance pin.

As you noticed: Without a piano action, you only need the front side of the keystick and you can fold the rest.


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Originally Posted by JoeT
As you noticed: Without a piano action, you only need the front side of the keystick and you can fold the rest.

DANGER, DANGER AHEAD... The basic lack of logic on piano lever geometry is in fact a trap. Whoever argues will get sucked into a vortex of nonsense... You have been warned.

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Originally Posted by ilsanto1978
Hi John,
Please don’t listen to people saying “it’s normal” because it is a vertical piano. It’s not normal!!!! I owned NV5 and I sold it for an NV10s. I had the same problem (yes, it’s a problem) and a technician came to fix it (an acoustic piano technician). He said that all this kawai have the sane issue. No one knows why kaway doesn’t fix it from fabric. This problem doesn’t happen only when you do ribattuto but also if your finger is minimally pressing a key and when you try tonplay that key none sound will come.
I study classical music with a teacher and I assure you it is not a matter of technique…

You can find plenty of post regarding this. Ask your dealer to send u a tech asap!!![video:youtube]https://youtube.com/shorts/-e3ZayOB0hE?feature=share[/video]


Thank you for this. It answers my main concern that my individual unit isn't 'faulty'. I'm also pleased I'm not the only person who's struggled with it.

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You can adjust the pianos minimum touch in virtual technician between 1-20 and also the adjust for low volume selection in the main settings on a scale of off to 5.

Last edited by InspiredByKawai; 09/17/21 04:32 PM.
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Originally Posted by InspiredByKawai
You can adjust the pianos minimum touch in virtual technician between 1-20 and also the adjust for low volume selection in the main settings on a scale of off to 5.

Thank you. Whether it's correct or not, it's mechanical in nature and doesn't actually throw the hammer, so there's no effect with digital settings such as these.

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Originally Posted by JoeT
That means you have to place the piano action further back at the other side of the pivot for a properly balanced key. Every inch and every ounce you add, you have to add at both sides of the balance pin.

As you noticed: Without a piano action, you only need the front side of the keystick and you can fold the rest.

Notice the depth of NV5, NU1, CA49, CA79 is all at 46 or 47cm. So it's definitely possible to design a longer pivot in a small package. But they certainly saved a lot of money repurposing their acoustic parts for their DPs, or they could design a more compact action from scratch like Grand Feel 3 that will be indistinguishable from the real thing. Anyway, I fear the technology of digital pianos has reached a plateau since the original Grand Feel 1 action. Perhaps in 20 years, we'll be able to buy a hybrid like N1X/NV10 as an mid-level product, one can dream right? That's when the top end product will be a shape-shifting transforming piano that can change into an acoustic concert piano and back to the size of an upright in an instant.

Well, without a clear upgrade path in sight, that just means I can only side-grade and never upgrade unless money becomes a non-issue that the cost of US$10,000 seems insignificant.

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Originally Posted by deadlymajesty
Originally Posted by JoeT
That means you have to place the piano action further back at the other side of the pivot for a properly balanced key. Every inch and every ounce you add, you have to add at both sides of the balance pin.

As you noticed: Without a piano action, you only need the front side of the keystick and you can fold the rest.

Notice the depth of NV5, NU1, CA49, CA79 is all at 46 or 47cm. So it's definitely possible to design a longer pivot in a small package.

If you only need one half of a keystick, it's possible to make it a few inches longer. If you need a balanced key and an actual piano action on top of it, you can't go with 48 cm keys in an 46 cm enclosure. And you need space for the action itself too.

Quote
But they certainly saved a lot of money repurposing their acoustic parts for their DPs,

Using an action from a acoustic piano is what actually makes it a hybrid digital and that is the main selling point.

Quote
or they could design a more compact action from scratch like Grand Feel 3 that will be indistinguishable from the real thing. Anyway, I fear the technology of digital pianos has reached a plateau since the original Grand Feel 1 action.

Nothing with the moniker "Grand Feel" plays like the real thing. People buying the Novus series don't want this stuff.


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