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Originally Posted by CyberGene
^ I've fallen for that trap too. To think that having all in one keyboard would be great. However when you realize hammer-action keyboard is good only for acoustic piano patches and Rhodes, it all starts making sense. There's nothing wrong in bringing/using two keyboards. And it's easier to use since you don't have to screw around with splits and programming on the spot with some menus and BS. You just use the hammer action as a very simple piano/Rhodes board and add to it a very good synth for what it is: a synth. I can whole heartedly recommend the ASM Hydrasynth, especially the polyphonic aftertouch keyboard, it gives yet another dimension of expressiveness for us keyboard players. It's absolutely the best aftertouch implementation in any synth keyboard by far and is very controllable. Many synths provide only channel aftertouch and even it is appalling and acts like an on/off switch. Not on the Hydrasynth, you can apply very precise and smooth gradation of aftertouc. Per finger! How about that. And they just announced Hydrasynth Explorer which is very compact three-octave version of it, still with poly AT, and also a Deluxe version which is bi-timbral and with 7-octaves.

I couldn't disagree more. hammer action keyboard is good for everything, especially the light touch of the something like ES920 or Yamaha Montage 8 (which I owned for several years) , it's great for organs, synths, etc. and I could play literally anything on it (wouldn't ever do that on a stiff action like P515). While 2 boards setup is super cool and useful in theory it makes gigs/rehearsals more of a chore than fun : because of weight, logistics, connectivity, amplification, needing a 2 tier stand etc. In a perfect world I'd obviously use a 2 board setup none of which have speakers. But for most people me included gigging is not the primary job, I don't perform in front of 10k people every week nor do I have my own road crew etc.

Plus I have my special sounds I like to use that can be only loaded on an FM engines like Yamaha/Korg and Kurzweil have. If you use something like a ES920 + Hydrasynth or a knob perfunction synth as a top board you're stuck with whatever sounds they offer. a Hydra/analog/VA synth etc. can't sound like a Prophet 5, a Moog, a DX7, a Vox continental, etc. Also, an ES920/FP90X etc. have a super limited sound pallette and in all cases the none acoustic piano sound are nowhere near as good as a Kronos/Montage. and while you can get close to some of these, a workstation can get you everything without compromise and for an artist getting exactly "that" sound is very important (at least for me). Which is why so many big names use them even though they don't use 90% of their capabilities as they just bring them to load the actual sounds they want for their set...

Which is why I'd prefer a single board to cover it all, 88/(76) hammer action that can do what I described in my previous post - have a super good hammer action, decent monitors and being able to achieve any sound I want, don't care for anything else. Simply play. Editing is a breeze if you have a PC for doing all that stuff. MOUSE + KEYBOARD >>>>> dealing with an older generation touch screen workstations usually have.

Jordan Rudess once stated in a video interview that he only uses Kronos 88 for his keyboard/synth duties because it has everything (he does have a few additional gadgets like slider MIDI board etc. but for a keyboard he doesn't use a multi tiered setup). This is exactly my approach, especially since I don't want gigs to become a logistical chore however a Kronos would be too heavy to fit in my small car and be managed by myself..

@sweetlinck Jupiter 50 is nice I think, but its sounds are dated and it can't load DX7 sysex.. Don't know about its action but I prefer hammer action even over semi weighted.

@RAJANE for home use just use whatever keyboard you already have as MIDI and git some good VSTs.

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As soon as the market stabilizes I intend to acquire an instrument with a key mechanism superior to the GHS that comes in the MOX8, I think the P515 is a good choice for my case, the only certainty I have is that I will continue with the Yamaha.

My doubt is whether having a second instrument in the setup will make a glaring difference in terms of versatility and put me on another level of fun because one of them is a workstation, as I never had this feature in practice I can't know the value of having two instruments of different purposes at the same time.

I don't want to have a pc in the setup, I've never used VST and I don't intend to have a complexity beyond 2 keyboards.

My doubt is whether the MOX8 is an instrument that should be kept for its versatility and if its low polyphony will be very harmful to the P515, after all one has 64 and the other 256.

Anyway, I don't really know what the potential of having a p515 in conjunction with a MOX8 is, I'm afraid to get rid of the MOX8 and in the future regret not having preserved my workstation.

It may be very naive, but this detail is bothering me.

Hugs to all.

Rajane.


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Hello,

@RAJANE, Reading your post (above), I noticed your doubts about polyphony. It is something that often confuses people.

This is how it *should* be:
-> Polyphony is an aspect of the sound engine, not the keyboard action.
-> The MIDI message stream comes from the keyboard and the electronics that convert the keystrokes and pedal use into MIDI messages.
-> The MIDI stream is then used to drive the internal sound engine and/or external instruments that are connected through MIDI cables.

So, if you use both the MOX8 and the P515, connected to eachother through MIDI cables:
-> If you play MOX8 sounds using the MOX8 keyboard, the polyphony is 64;
-> If you play MOX8 sounds using the P515 keyboard, the polyphony is 64;
-> If you play P515 sounds using the MOX8 keyboard, the polyphony is 256;
-> If you play P515 sounds using the P515 keyboard, the polyphony is 256.

Hope this helps!

Cheers and happy decision making,

HZ

PS As others have already offered, I also do think it is better to use different keybeds for either the piano category of sounds and the organ/synthesizer category of sounds.

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Thanks for the reply.

I know what polyphony is and what is its importance and ultility, what I did not know was whether playing on the P515 using the sounds of the MOX8 would have as limitation the smallest polyphony of the MOX8.

So this perfect, will always prevail the polyphony of the keyboard in which if you are physically touching your keys, in this case the other instrument will only make the role of brain and nothing else will manifest.

Hugs to all.

Rajane.


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Originally Posted by RAJANE
Thanks for the reply.

I know what polyphony is and what is its importance and ultility, what I did not know was whether playing on the P515 using the sounds of the MOX8 would have as limitation the smallest polyphony of the MOX8.

So this perfect, will always prevail the polyphony of the keyboard in which if you are physically touching your keys, in this case the other instrument will only make the role of brain and nothing else will manifest.

Hugs to all.

Rajane.
Nope, you got it a bit wrong.

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The polyphony (number of simultaneous voices) is a characteristic of the tone generator, not the keyboard.

Then playing on a P515 with the MODX8 as the tone generator will get you the polyphony of the MODX8.
Playing on the MODX8 with the P515 as the tone generator will get you the polyphony of the P515.

What is a characteristic of the keyboard is the polyphonic aftertouch feature (but the tone generator must be compatible). We get away from the normal digital piano functions however.


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So we went back to the beginning, my initial doubt was that I thought that if the MOX8 was the generator of the sounds, even being playing on the P515 would be limited to the polyphony of the MOX8.

"My doubt is whether the MOX8 is an instrument that should be kept for its versatility and if its low polyphony will be very harmful to the P515, after all one has 64 and the other 256.

Anyway, I don't really know what the potential of having a p515 in conjunction with a MOX8 is, I'm afraid to get rid of the MOX8 and in the future regret not having preserved my workstation.

It may be very naive, but this detail is bothering me."

Let's forget mid, in case you have the two instruments connected to a 8 chanel mixer table this polyphonic difference would go unnoticed when switching from one instrument to another or would it be rare for this to happen?

Simply put, who has a MOX8 if buying a P515 will find the MOX8 an outdated and much inferior instrument in terms of sound quality?


Hugs to all.

Rajane.


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Rajane, I will send you an private message in Portuguese.

I understand from a previous message of yours that you are using google translate so part of the meaning must being lost in the translation.

The way I understand your message is:

You play on the P-515, using it as controller only (no sound generator) and it is connected to MOX8 and MOX8 works as the sound generator. Then, polyphony is 64, because it is not P-515 which generates the sound, it is MOX8.

You play on MOX8, using it as controller only (no sound generator) and it is connected to P-515 and P-515 works as the sound generator. Then, polyphony is 256, because it is not MOX8 which generates the sound, it is P-515.

The part below of your message is wrong, unless you meant another thing and the translation was the opposite of what you meant

Originally Posted by RAJANE
So this perfect, will always prevail the polyphony of the keyboard in which if you are physically touching your keys, in this case the other instrument will only make the role of brain and nothing else will manifest.

Last edited by EVC2017; 09/20/21 03:07 PM.

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Thanks to everyone for your understanding and kindness.

Using a translator sometimes complicates instead of helping.

Hugs to all.

Rajane.


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I’m stuck between these 2 regarding the keybed action. I’ve gotten acclimated and actually like the heavy action from my Roland FP30. I assume the Yamaha P515 will be somewhat similar.

I hear the ES920 has lighter action, but is it too light or does it feel like semi-weighted? No stores around me have the ES920 or P515 in stock for me to test.

I don’t play classical, etc. I strictly play contemporary Christian worship music.

So my decision, comes strictly down to the key action. I appreciate any input! Thanks!

Last edited by Raf702; 09/20/21 06:21 PM.
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Originally Posted by RAJANE
Thanks for the reply.

I know what polyphony is and what is its importance and ultility, what I did not know was whether playing on the P515 using the sounds of the MOX8 would have as limitation the smallest polyphony of the MOX8.

So this perfect, will always prevail the polyphony of the keyboard in which if you are physically touching your keys, in this case the other instrument will only make the role of brain and nothing else will manifest.

Hugs to all.

Rajane.

The keyboard you use as a midi controller does not limit polyphony-- the sound engine does. If you want to use a P-515 as a midi controller action to play MOX8 sounds, all you need to do is use a Motif XS rack with the P-515. If you want a full separate keyboard on the MOX/Motif, you would be better off with a MOX6 for a semi-weighted action to play organ, synthesizer, and acoustic samples for other instruments.

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Originally Posted by jeffcat
Originally Posted by peterws
I don't know quite why folk like all this extra bass. It's not found on most acoustics and can muddy the sound so easily. The CN 27 was one I particularly liked; the 37 less so. But that's me. Some of the cheaper models don't have a decent sized music stand which is terrible. One has to have a big music stand.

I can't remember where, I read a paper which discussed using bass to jiggle (resonate) the lower body to produce a pleasurable response.

In theory, it's similar to sitting in a vibrating massage chair.

What you probably read is that human rib cages resonate in the 50-60Hz range, creating the phenomenon of bass you can feel. Speakers that accentuate bass in that region are sometines viewed as have deep bass, which is not correct.

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Originally Posted by Raf702
I’m stuck between these 2 regarding the keybed action. I’ve gotten acclimated and actually like the heavy action from my Roland FP30. I assume the Yamaha P515 will be somewhat similar.

I hear the ES920 has lighter action, but is it too light or does it feel like semi-weighted? No stores around me have the ES920 or P515 in stock for me to test.

I don’t play classical, etc. I strictly play contemporary Christian worship music.

So my decision, comes strictly down to the key action. I appreciate any input! Thanks!

The ES920 or MP7SE both have the Kawai RHIII action. It is a graded hammer weight piano action of average downweight for a piano. The P-515 action is much heavier, but not because the RHIII is semi-weighted.

For contemporary music performance, the MP7SE dusts the P-515 or ES920. You get a Hammond B3 emulator, pianos, electric pianos, and range of other sampled sounds, and the ability to layer 4 sounds with a midi mixer, or assign up to 4 sounds to keyboard splits. As a stage piano, it has a more robust build to withstand hauling to and from rehearsals and gigs.

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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Originally Posted by RAJANE
Thanks for the reply.

I know what polyphony is and what is its importance and ultility, what I did not know was whether playing on the P515 using the sounds of the MOX8 would have as limitation the smallest polyphony of the MOX8.

So this perfect, will always prevail the polyphony of the keyboard in which if you are physically touching your keys, in this case the other instrument will only make the role of brain and nothing else will manifest.

Hugs to all.

Rajane.

The keyboard you use as a midi controller does not limit polyphony-- the sound engine does. If you want to use a P-515 as a midi controller action to play MOX8 sounds, all you need to do is use a Motif XS rack with the P-515. If you want a full separate keyboard on the MOX/Motif, you would be better off with a MOX6 for a semi-weighted action to play organ, synthesizer, and acoustic samples for other instruments.

I believe the maximum number of notes MOX/F can generate over a MIDI channel is 192 (not sure). You need to check it with a Yamaha representative.

The controller actually has a limit over the number of notes it can simultaneously generate!

So if your DP has a 256 notes polyphony, MOX/F probably can only generate 192 max notes in controller mode or as a sequencer!

That said, I highly suggest that Rajane borrows a friend's DP for a day or two to see if it fits his needs.

You can even rent one before making the big decision.

Haha... so the controller does limit the polyphony depending on how crappy it is. I'm saying this because I'm 110% about it smile

Cheers!


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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
[quote]

The ES920 or MP7SE both have the Kawai RHIII action. It is a graded hammer weight piano action of average downweight for a piano. The P-515 action is much heavier, but not because the RHIII is semi-weighted.

For contemporary music performance, the MP7SE dusts the P-515 or ES920. You get a Hammond B3 emulator, pianos, electric pianos, and range of other sampled sounds, and the ability to layer 4 sounds with a midi mixer, or assign up to 4 sounds to keyboard splits. As a stage piano, it has a more robust build to withstand hauling to and from rehearsals and gigs.

I appreciate that info, but how is the sound engine and piano tone in comparison to the ES920 and P-515? Tone wise I’m steering towards ES920 second to the P515. I’m also trying to keep my budget within that ES920/P-515 pricing.

This particular digital piano I plan to keep in my home. And having quality onboard speakers is a must. Also any sort of gigging, etc. my church already uses a Nord Electro 6D, connecting to a PA system.

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> I assume the Yamaha P515 will be somewhat similar.

It feels different, heavy at the top but gets light at the bottom. FP30 is kind of vice versa. ES920 not thaaat light, but different too.

> No stores around me have the ES920 or P515 in stock for me to test.
Pity. If you can't, order one from a place that accepts returns.

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Originally Posted by Abdol
You can even rent one before making the big decision.

Not an option in Brazil, unfortunately.

About the poly limit as a controller, I was not sure and I almost commented that in my last post as a possibility but I decided to keep it simple (the other being if 256 is really 256 or there are those tiny print on the footnotes wink ). Still, 192 is still pretty decent and enough for nearly everybody.

Last edited by EVC2017; 09/21/21 07:44 AM.

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Originally Posted by _sem_
> I assume the Yamaha P515 will be somewhat similar.

It feels different, heavy at the top but gets light at the bottom. FP30 is kind of vice versa. ES920 not thaaat light, but different too.

> No stores around me have the ES920 or P515 in stock for me to test.
Pity. If you can't, order one from a place that accepts returns.

I did recently check out a piano store/outlet and tried a bunch of different acoustic pianos to get a feel of the varying key actions. Even though some felt heavier and some felt lighter, they all felt great.

This one upright piano acoustic Yamaha B1/PWH to me had such a buttery smooth action. I was throughly impressed by its key action.

Im sure any of the stores near me have a 15-30 day return policy. I just don’t like ordering things on a risk and dealing with the hassle of returning.

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> Im sure any of the stores near me have a 15-30 day return policy. I just don’t like ordering things on a risk and dealing with the hassle of returning.


Sure returning is hassle, all of these come in big and heavy boxes, that's why trying firstly is a much better idea, but you write you can't. But it is even bigger hassle to have to pay a big restocking fee or can't return at all - it is hassle to sellers too.

I think people mostly adapt to various key actions, except some who really hit some capability limits. But it is annoying if the DP action is very different from your own AP you also play, or from your teacher's AP you play at lessons, etc.

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Originally Posted by _sem_
> Im sure any of the stores near me have a 15-30 day return policy. I just don’t like ordering things on a risk and dealing with the hassle of returning.


Sure returning is hassle, all of these come in big and heavy boxes, that's why trying firstly is a much better idea, but you write you can't. But it is even bigger hassle to have to pay a big restocking fee or can't return at all - it is hassle to sellers too.

I think people mostly adapt to various key actions, except some who really hit some capability limits. But it is annoying if the DP action is very different from your own AP you also play, or from your teacher's AP you play at lessons, etc.

Exactly, and I’m sure these big ticket items have a restocking fee of typically 10-15%!

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