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I'm have a hard time finding real-world examples of M3 progressions, from REAL pianos from spinets to concert grands.

It's one thing to aim for a smooth progression, BUT WHAT DO ACTUAL PROGRESSIONS LOOK LIKE IN PRACTICE???

How close (or far away) from "ideal" M3 progressions are REAL WORLD progressions?

What sort of margin of error is permissible?

In my opinion the thirds are a very sensitive test and if I run down in thirds anything odd stands out a mile.
If I run down I feel an instinctive desire to slow my playing down as I descend, coinciding with the slowing beat rate. In fact, this slowing of playing due to beat rates is, in my (highly suspect) opinion the reason why different keys have different charachters even with ET tuning.
I may not have expressed myself very clearly here.
Nick

While I was taught to aim for a smooth beat progression with 3rds, in practise I don’t really care very much. The reason are:

1. There have been plenty of pianos I’ve tuned where achieving a nice sounding interval in the temperament other than a M3rd means that there can’t be a smooth progression of M3rds. I’ve come across a disproportionate amount of pianos where getting the F-Bb sounding decent means that either the D-F# or the Gb-Bb doesn’t beat ‘right’. So do I alter the 4th or one of the 3rds? I think the 4th is more easily heard so I sacrifice the smooth progression of 3rds. This is just one example, and pianos which have a not great tenor break exacerbates the inharmonicity.

2. So while setting the temperament my goal is more to minimise intervals which stand out rather than aim for a smooth M3rds progression.

3. Honestly I can’t even remember the last time I played a freshly tuned piano (not tuned by me) and the M3rd’s had a perfectly smooth progression. Even by the technician who taught me. It’s just not that important.

4 Getting more variation between the keys I see as a good thing. After doing a lot of temperament research I realised that while equal temperament is a good thing I don’t think it’s always the cat’s pajamas

Ability to achieve smoothly ascending 3rds and 6ths is relative to the quality of the instrument. On a well designed and executed piano it is not difficult to achieve a nearly flawless result. When scale design is compromised for whatever reasons it becomes increasingly more difficult to do so, resulting in the need to make choices on the fly.

A machine that "forces" a mathematically correct ET onto a piano that is "quality challenged" may not sound nearly as good as an experienced analog tuner's "tweaking" of things. Many many many PSO's will NOT allow anywhere near true ET...period.

It can be done both by ear and by transistor and algorithm.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

Points well taken about pianos with less than stellar scale designs, but OP has a Hailun 218. Can we help him with THAT model piano?
It's certainly got string length going in its favor.
It's been a while since I read about it, but I remember something about Hailun getting expert advice on the scale design from a European expert, so... maybe good scale design on top of long strings.
Shouldn't it be possible to get a progression of M3s that beat slightly faster on a Hailun 218 as they ascend chromatically.

Pro tuner friends - what about the tests: F-A, F-D, G-E, C-E, which... I believe should beat at 7,8,9 and 10 respectively. It doesn't get us all the way through the temperament, but gets it started well.

Well, that's the thing with an ETD. If it's algorithm is not producing smoothly progressing 3rds and 6ths then some tweaking is called for. If the machine is incapable of doing it one's ears and brain (with experience and finesse) must step in to diagnose and adjust (however slightly it might be) which intervals are in need of massage therapy.

I have yet to meet a machine that can do this. They are mathematical wonders, but the piano is not perfect. Thus the need for an organic supercomputer capable of determining .01 cent and adjusting accordingly.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

+1
Nick

Alternative, non-equal temperaments do, then, have there place. I have a distinct memory, as a child, of our piano sounding quite different in different keys!

I remember a few years ago a thread on this - the only person/program that was able to achieve progressive thirds was an amateur using Dirk's Tuning Program (on a Hamburg D if I recall). There was someone in the thread who was analyzing the recordings, but I can't remember who/when this was.

Armed with IC piano tuner and PiaTune, both of which allow a quick and accurate measurements of various intervals, I was able to get a fairly smooth progression of M3s on my Hailun. However, it wasn't clear to me that the piano sounded "better" for it.

I'm not a professional tuner, but getting the attack and subsequent sustain on any given unison seems a little more telling. Just my view.

Don't forget that there's the law of diminishing returns at work here. You're not a professional tuner so you aren't tuning hundreds of pianos a year as professionals are. Obviously the unisons will give you the best result for your attention but if you had yhe same level of experience that some have here you would be searching for a higher level of return or perfection (which obviously is not attainable, but we try...). The difference might be so subtle that a non professional cannot hear the difference perhaps.
This is a tech's forum so we are talking to each other about levels of effort which rely on the basics being achieved before we start.
To quote an old man I knew...you can't really tune a piano unless it's already in tune.
Nick

Also M6s should be progressive and P4s and P5s should sound ok.

PiaTune will give you excellent results on equal temperament, that I don’t think any other ETD or aural tuner can surpass.

Totally. Probably not a "luxury," really, to be in my situation .... but someone (like me) who is talking exclusively about his time with ONE piano only (his own) is not in any relevant sense of the term, a "piano tuner"!!!

Kent Swafford's The "Every-Which-Way" Temperament Sequence and Igrec's book have been very helpful to me in my personal quest to get a practical feel for what these issues are about.

Just a kind of shout out.

One must remember what the purpose of ET (as we know it today) is: that is to make all keys usable and as much THE SAME as possible, all "like" intervals the same. OTOH any unequal temperament scheme FAVORS one or more keys over others. This can be done intentionally and with purpose, or it can be accomplished through sloppiness.

Our ears/brain are EXTREMELY sensitive to the relative expansions and contractions of these intervals. We interpret these as "tonality", and affects how we perceive the music. In ET, if you play a few bars of music in one key and then transpose it up one half step, it will sound virtually the same (just higher in pitch). In a well crafted UT, if you do the exact same thing, the same music played in the adjacent key will sound significantly different (perhaps joltingly different). However knowledge and experience with this UT allows the musician to express things differently according to different circumstances or desires.

OTOH ET is a general purpose tuning form that allows ALL music to sound "reasonably good"...any intelligent chord or group of notes will sound "musical". The more EQUAL it is the more SAME everything is. This is a reflection of the "standardized" world in which we live. A-440hz, 120 volts AC, standard thread sizes, bolt sizes, plumbing fixtures and connectors...etc etc all reflect standardization that makes things work more uniformly no matter where we live (generally speaking).

Both ET and UT have their places. Is ET "better" than UT? It depends. Sonetimes yes, sonetimes no. Music COMPOSED in a UT is still playable in ET but may lack certain qualities intended bybthe composer. Music COMPOSED in ET and played in a UT m at or may not sound so good...it depends. There is a place for both.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

So true!

👍

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

To guarantee progressive M3s and M6s, each note must be within +/- 0.2 cents of ideal pitch. You probably could fudge it with +/- 0.4 cents. How much of a jump in scaling will make this impossible I don't know. But it takes a really nice pinblock and bearing friction combination to make progressive RBIs achievable. I used to believe it when tuners would say they tune RBIs progressive and wondered why I could not. I just do the best I can with what I got. Goes along with getting older, and older and ..... zzzzzz

.2 tolerance: yikes! I got my work cut out.

Yes, that person had software with nice graphic displays, frequency filters, etc. etc.

I'm pretty sure it was between 2013 and 2015, but I can't remember the name. I want to delve back into that time anyway, because I'm looking for some other bits of information. If I find that thread, I'll link it here.