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#3163113 10/10/21 01:21 PM
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It's good to have some resource available - but the fundamental structure of this forum could really use an overhaul.

The process to upload photos is just archaic - cumbersome, and not practical in today's world. Photo size limitation of 2MB is unrealistic today. Not being able to easily upload photos of reasonable size renders this forum as being DOA in my view. It can be and should be done so much better.

The notion of placing any value to members based on the number of their aggregated past posts just makes zero sense to me. How does that establish anything of value?

Members who read a post and find value in it should be able to indicate so via a simple "like". From that over time, one can understand the value of another members contributions via the number of likes they've received on their past posts. Absolutely nothing new in that - you see something like it everywhere. And it works.

If someone has better ideas - GOOD! Let's hear them.

Bottom line - Piano World is an antique and needs to be elevated into the current world.

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I agree that upgrades would be great! I hope all participants will consider donating or subscribing to the forum. An influx of funds would go a long way to getting changes made.


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Originally Posted by dogperson
I agree that upgrades would be great! I hope all participants will consider donating or subscribing to the forum. An influx of funds would go a long way to getting changes made.


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Originally Posted by dogperson
I agree that upgrades would be great! I hope all participants will consider donating or subscribing to the forum. An influx of funds would go a long way to getting changes made.

Tremendous suggestion!


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Originally Posted by dogperson
I agree that upgrades would be great! I hope all participants will consider donating or subscribing to the forum. An influx of funds would go a long way to getting changes made.

What would the financial goal be to accomplish this? What would it take? Who does the work?

How long to accomplish?

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Originally Posted by RPA88
Originally Posted by dogperson
I agree that upgrades would be great! I hope all participants will consider donating or subscribing to the forum. An influx of funds would go a long way to getting changes made.

What would the financial goal be to accomplish this? What would it take? Who does the work?

How long to accomplish?


Good grief: the financial goal involves how much is wanted by members to be done. The work would be outsourced by the forum owner.

I personally don’t see how any of us, or even the owner, can provide an exact list of what would be done; it depends on the $$$ of donations compared to a bid estimate. … and of course, the wish list,

Bronze memberships are $29 annually — not everyone can afford it, but probably many could. I do believe the forum, as is, provides value to each of us here way in excess of that dollar amount.


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Originally Posted by RPA88
Bottom line - Piano World is an antique and needs to be elevated into the current world.

According to who?

I'll admit I'm not much of a techie (or a piano player smile ), and I'll agree the photo uploading process is not necessarily user friendly for new members, but Piano World an antique and not part of the current world? I'm not so sure about that.

And, Frank Baxter, owner of Piano World, has made upgrades to the site in the last few years. This is his Internet Forum, and he has described it as his house, his home, his bar, his pool-room, his playhouse, his domain, and he will decide when major tech changes are needed, and whether or not he can afford it.

As for the "like" button pertaining to various posts, why make Piano World another Facebook or YouTube? If that is the case, Frank could just shut the site down and start a sub-forum on Facebook entitled "Piano World", but I'm not sure how that would affect the advertising that he has here. In fact, there are already a few piano sub-forums on FB.

I'm a proponent of improvements and upgrades, but there is no need to try and "push" the issue. PM Frank and discuss it with him and see what he has to say.

By-the-way, there have been more than a few Piano Industry entities who have offered to buy Piano World from Frank, but he hasn't received an offer he likes, yet.

Maybe I'm old and antiquated, but I think PW is great as-is...

Just my .02, at a discount. smile

Rick


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Originally Posted by RPA88
It's good to have some resource available - but the fundamental structure of this forum could really use an overhaul.

The process to upload photos is just archaic - cumbersome, and not practical in today's world. Photo size limitation of 2MB is unrealistic today. Not being able to easily upload photos of reasonable size renders this forum as being DOA in my view. It can be and should be done so much better.

The notion of placing any value to members based on the number of their aggregated past posts just makes zero sense to me. How does that establish anything of value?

Members who read a post and find value in it should be able to indicate so via a simple "like". From that over time, one can understand the value of another members contributions via the number of likes they've received on their past posts. Absolutely nothing new in that - you see something like it everywhere. And it works.

If someone has better ideas - GOOD! Let's hear them.

Bottom line - Piano World is an antique and needs to be elevated into the current world.
I agree that the photo uploading process needs a major shot in the arm. Other than that, I think the way PW is structured is just fine. Aggregated past posts simply reflect levels of individual participation. There is some "value" in knowing that. The ability to search those past posts is very useful. "Likes" (such as found on Facebook, YouTube, AOL, neighborhood chat rooms, etc.) are not particularly useful to me - and I certainly could care less about keeping track about the sheer number of "likes" each individual member receives. This shouldn't become a popularity contest. Every member has something to contribute. Also - IMO the use of "likes" or "dislikes" doesn't necessarily foster good discussion. It is so much easier to "like" or "dislike" something than to take the time to comment. I don't want to discourage the kind of lively dialog we often have here. The number of "views" or "comments" for specific threads are more indicative of how much interest is generated by the thread - whether folks like it or not.

Just my thoughts. smile

Last edited by Carey; 10/10/21 04:26 PM.

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Originally Posted by Carey
Originally Posted by RPA88
It's good to have some resource available - but the fundamental structure of this forum could really use an overhaul.

The process to upload photos is just archaic - cumbersome, and not practical in today's world. Photo size limitation of 2MB is unrealistic today. Not being able to easily upload photos of reasonable size renders this forum as being DOA in my view. It can be and should be done so much better.

The notion of placing any value to members based on the number of their aggregated past posts just makes zero sense to me. How does that establish anything of value?

Members who read a post and find value in it should be able to indicate so via a simple "like". From that over time, one can understand the value of another members contributions via the number of likes they've received on their past posts. Absolutely nothing new in that - you see something like it everywhere. And it works.

If someone has better ideas - GOOD! Let's hear them.

Bottom line - Piano World is an antique and needs to be elevated into the current world.
I agree that the photo uploading process needs a major shot in the arm. Other than that, I think the way PW is structured is just fine. Aggregated past posts simply reflect levels of individual participation. There is some "value" in knowing that. The ability to search those past posts is very useful. "Likes" (such as found on Facebook, YouTube, AOL, neighborhood chat rooms, etc.) are not particularly useful to me - and I certainly could care less about keeping track about the sheer number of "likes" each individual member receives. This shouldn't become a popularity contest. Every member has something to contribute. Also - IMO the use of "likes" or "dislikes" doesn't necessarily foster good discussion. It is so much easier to "like" or "dislike" something than to take the time to comment. I don't want to discourage the kind of lively dialog we often have here. The number of "views" or "comments" for specific threads are more indicative of how much interest is generated by the thread - whether folks like it or not.

Just my thoughts. smile

Well, Carey, it appears we posted about the same time, and that we are on the same wave-length, for the most part. smile

Rick


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Originally Posted by Rickster
Originally Posted by RPA88
Bottom line - Piano World is an antique and needs to be elevated into the current world.

According to who?

I'll admit I'm not much of a techie (or a piano player smile ), and I'll agree the photo uploading process is not necessarily user friendly for new members, but Piano World an antique and not part of the current world? I'm not so sure about that.

And, Frank Baxter, owner of Piano World, has made upgrades to the site in the last few years. This is his Internet Forum, and he has described it as his house, his home, his bar, his pool-room, his playhouse, his domain, and he will decide when major tech changes are needed, and whether or not he can afford it.

As for the "like" button pertaining to various posts, why make Piano World another Facebook or YouTube? If that is the case, Frank could just shut the site down and start a sub-forum on Facebook entitled "Piano World", but I'm not sure how that would affect the advertising that he has here. In fact, there are already a few piano sub-forums on FB.

I'm a proponent of improvements and upgrades, but there is no need to try and "push" the issue. PM Frank and discuss it with him and see what he has to say.

By-the-way, there have been more than a few Piano Industry entities who have offered to buy Piano World from Frank, but he hasn't received an offer he likes, yet.

Maybe I'm old and antiquated, but I think PW is great as-is...

Just my .02, at a discount. smile

Rick

Have to agree with Rick:

I am a newbie here but have used other forums for many years. I guess I like the "antiquated" feel of the forum. I would hate to see it turned into a popularity contest for "likes" having quit Facebook many years ago. So yes, by all means update some things but otherwise it is a useful format.

Last edited by drewhpianoman; 10/10/21 04:34 PM.

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Originally Posted by Rickster
Well, Carey, it appears we posted about the same time, and that we are on the same wave-length, for the most part. smile

Rick
Great minds think alike. ha


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Originally Posted by RPA88
....The notion of placing any value to members based on the number of their aggregated past posts just makes zero sense to me. How does that establish anything of value?...

Did someone tell you that the number of posts indicated value? Who? Of course it's silly. If any PW members believe that, bad on them. The number of post means...the number of posts. Sometimes the numbers come from longevity, sometimes just because the person feels compelled to post frequently.

Likes and dislikes was tried in the past and caused problems--not surprisingly, because popularity is also not a measure of value. The best way to determine value is to read and make your own judgement. If you find value in a post, make a post yourself saying so. It's the conversations, the back and forth, that keep the forum going.


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It looks like the forum can easily accommodate picture attachments for any size for any posts - it would just be a matter of enabling the feature like in the gallery forum and relaxing the upload constraints. I think the limitation is put on purpose to conserve space (ditto audio is hosted only through the recital program).

But you can use other quick hosting solutions e.g. pasteboard for pics, vocaroo for audio.


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A resounding and enthusiastic group vote for the status quo.

Amazing.

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I agree the forum is pretty dated. A few of the more prominent issues I can immediately recall:
- The image uploading process is arcane at best
- Small limits on how many personal messages can be sent is bizarre in 2021.
- Viewing this site on a phone is painful. It was designed primarily for a desktop/laptop - yet a higher percentage of people use phones/tablets compared to desktops each year. This means more and more people will find this site difficult to use with each year that passes.
- The entire site including the authentication page is plain http and unencrypted. While technically inclined folks will know to just use a different password for this site and to never store anything important here since it is relatively easy to hack, it is easy to miss that this site is not secure when the majority of websites are now. Since people frequently use the same password across all websites this ultimately means by using this website they will likely be compromising the security of their other website accounts.

That being said, I'm a software engineer by profession and I understand the time and risk involved with updating ancient websites. Frequently it just isn't worth the time or effort. At this point, I suspect things will only be updated if the majority of users leave and if the owner still cares about the website's usage.

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If I could wave a magic wand, I would love to see the login be secure, the site display better on mobile devices, and for image uploading to be easier. But I know little about owning and operating a forum.


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In summary, the obligation of the custodian / caretaker for this site is to provide a tool that supports the needs and desires of the participating community.

My impression reading through some of the responses here is that the site as-is, is functioning per the desires of the broader participating community.

In my view however, the site is structured and operates with little imagination; provides a fraction of the value it could; and caters to stagnant, status quo minded constituents.

The image that comes to mind is of fungi clinging to an old log, located in a conifer forest where sunlight hasn't penetrated for decades...

In response to the question - "can this site be elevated into the present and provide its members meaningful value?" The answer apparently is... "You can't get there from here..."

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Although, I’m sure your intentions are good, I think it’s not always a good idea to come into someone’s house and criticize it in such a dramatic way. Especially when most are using it for free. Maybe a few tweaks might be good. But other than the sometimes heavy-handed and inexplicable moderation, I think Piano Forums is just fine. They have to be doing something right for it to last for all these years.

In addition, I’m here almost every day. Many of us are here every day, several times a day. For the record I don’t do social media for a myriad of reasons that I won’t expound on at the risk of getting too political. The bottom line, we don’t want this to be another Facebook. I’m over 45, but I’m not yet elderly. Even so, I’m old enough to know that new, bright and shiny is not always a good thing. Sometimes major change is not always a good thing. We have seen many examples of how major change has worked out over the years and not necessarily for the better.

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Originally Posted by RPA88
In summary, the obligation of the custodian / caretaker for this site is to provide a tool that supports the needs and desires of the participating community. My impression reading through some of the responses here is that the site as-is, is functioning per the desires of the broader participating community.
Per the comments of some of the folks who have commented thus far, perhaps so.
Quote
In my view however, the site is structured and operates with little imagination;
Fair enough.
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... provides a fraction of the value it could;
I'm still unclear about what "value" you feel is missing.
Quote
and caters to stagnant, status quo minded constituents.
Who probably have other priorities in their lives.

Personally, I've been actively participating on PW for 12 years. I've learned a tremendous amount about pianos, pianists, repertoire and music in general. I've made friends all over the world. I've been able to help other members in different parts of the nation find pianos. I've posted my own recordings, received helpful feedback, and enjoyed the recordings posted by others. Am I a stagnant, status quo kind of guy when it comes to technology and the latest trends? Sure. Why? Because those things really aren't important to me at this stage of my life, and I've seen too many "trends" come and go. But fear not, I do have an Android phone (PW works fine on it) and Facebook, YouTube and Box accounts. I also have a large classical CD collection and have recently gotten back into collecting old classical vinyl records - because I'd much rather be able to hold my music collection in my hands than store it somewhere on the Cloud. smile

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The image that comes to mind is of fungi clinging to an old log, located in a conifer forest where sunlight hasn't penetrated for decades...
If you say so. grin

Quote
In response to the question - "can this site be elevated into the present and provide its members meaningful value?" The answer apparently is... "You can't get there from here..."
Don't worry. It will probably happen eventually - either here or somewhere else. Nothing lasts forever.


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Originally Posted by RPA88
A resounding and enthusiastic group vote for the status quo.

Amazing.


Why don’t you vote by taking action rather than just complaining? . Start a campaign for users to donate to the forum so upgrades can be reasonably afforded.

We can get there from here—. But it looks like we were just waiting on you to raise the funds from other users.

Oh, don’t forget your own donation.

Last edited by dogperson; 10/11/21 01:33 AM.
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